Incentive too high for 25?

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01/23/2013 05:54 PMPosted by Nodokk
It really depends on what the chance for items to be Thunderforged is. If we're talking like 50% for 25m and 5% for 10m, then it's gonna be kind of an issue. But if it's 15% for 25s and say 10% for 10s, then it's fine.


honestly, if it's 10% for 10m, I'd be fine with 25% on 25m.

tho, it's likely to be closer to 2% and 5%.
Id rather have an extra boss then a stupid weapon. I had more fun the first week heroics came out running them in blues. Item upgrade, sha touched, thunderforged all boring IMO.
The difference comes into play more when you're 2 healing a fight.
healer dead = 50% of healers in the raid dead. Even with a res they're now oom and likely leading towards a wipe. This isn't the case in a 25man.

An interrupter dying on protectors when it's their turn. No one else to interrupt in their place. Wipe. This isn't the case in a 25man.

Yes some mechanics cause a wipe in 25 or 10man due to the nature of the encounter.
There isn't a single example of a death / res in a 25man being more of a challenge to overcome than it's 10man counterpart.

This points to why I prefer 25 mans and yet players continue to move away from them including PuGs who dropped them almost completely when they would be the easier way to go. So are players doing 10 man because they like it to be more challenging and punishing or because it is easier for them to get a consistent group rolling and is worth the trade off?

In normal it might be easier to carry a player in 25 man. When you get to heroic mode it is harder to carry players where there are more mechanics out there where one person can wipe the raid, tuning is far tighter, and less room to spread out on in 25 man. With 25 mans you have to be able to find 25 competent players who can coordinate with a larger group of players in a boss room and all be able to pull their own weight and with 10 mans you just gotta find less than half the amount of competent players and can be more picky with your recruiting if you raid out of prime raid times instead of having to fill a spot with anyone you can get which tends to happen in 25 man. Just because a group might be able to carry players in normal 25 man doesn't mean they want to and they are likely able to cut down to their best 10 players and be far more successful.

The conservative guess of what would happen if this goes to live is that more competitive 25 man guilds stay and some more average level guilds will try to move to 25 man and fail and possibly blow up like I have seen guilds do before. This change is mostly going to impact the top guilds and depending on the increased drop rate will not get players to put in the extra effort and get a 25 man going. Now if Blizzard split the raid lockouts then we might see more PuGs coming back after being slashed down with LFR.
01/23/2013 05:55 PMPosted by Preheat
This is an excellent idea. I think people underestimate the amount of work that goes into a top end guild that wants to stay 25man. Incentives will help keep the 25man raid scene alive.

Agreed but this isn't the incentive that will do it. From talking amongst my fellow raiders it's just going to cause more strife on officers deciding who gets what of this rng based loot that you may never see again.


How is there MORE of a challenge when a death means wipe.


He is saying that on some fights, 1 death means a wipe on both 10 and 25 man. So therefore, it is the same importance that everyone remain alive. But there are some fights where you can lose one person in a 25 man and still make the kill, where as if you lost one person on that same fight in 10 man, you would be losing more, and thus wipe.

Basically this yes but at the level I play at, most times when we're pushing top US/World rank one death for our first kill is almost always a wipe on most every fight except the easiest, repeat kills we don't care about so much, only progression matters.

25s get more. Pure and simple. They get 6, not 5 per boss. In addition the likely usefulness of the 6 is higher than the 2 in 10man.


It's practically the same amount.

10 = 1 piece per 5 people
25 = 1 piece per 4.16 people


1 piece per 5 people but maybe no one in the raid wears mail and you get 2 mail drops.
1 piece per 4.16 in 25man, but how many times does a 25man raid have no mail wearer?

My point was that the 6 items that drop in 25 are far more useful to the raid as a whole compared to the 2 in the 10man.

First heroic kill of a new boss will drop an item that someone can use in a 25man. This is not the case in a 10man.
[quote="77074695937"]
Agreed but this isn't the incentive that will do it. From talking amongst my fellow raiders it's just going to cause more strife on officers deciding who gets what of this rng based loot that you may never see again.


We just /roll in my guild no drama.
I miss the days when we referred to "10man guilds" as "Karazhan" guilds because that's all you could do. This game hands out gear like candy and still you complain. None of the whiners in this thread would have lasted 10 minutes in Van/BC. Cry me a river. Talk about 'gear saturation'... It was supposed to be an accomplishment to have epic gear. Now it's somehow become not only a right to full epics, but full epics of the maximum quality with the minimum effort.

Organizing a 25man raid in this game today on the vast majority of servers is an act of IRL magic. So yes, they deserve not only more but also better rewards. Want the better drops and drop rates? Organize a 25m. Don't like the extra effort it takes to make that happen? Don't like the extra headaches it TAKES to make that happen? THEN YOU DON'T GET THE REWARDS. You're all self-indulgent lazy QQ entitlement bearing complainers... equalizing gear in Cata 10s and 25s is what ended the last remaining shred of interest I had in organized raiding, that was initially crushed by WotLK 10m raiding in general.

10m raids are for casuals and small guilds. The ease of finding 9 other ppl vs 24 is incomparable. And lets be honest: You probably have 2-3 friends already if you start a brand new 10m, so really you're looking for 6-7 other competent raiders. 25m raids are for those who have the wherewithal to make it happen which means the same 3-4 ppl have to find and organize 21-22 other ppl to perform properly when the time comes.

My God I'm glad I've gotten out of this game. I read four posts and wanted to slit my wrists. The WoW players of yester-xpac are history and it's time I join them. Those of you left clinging to some shred of hope that the community will regain an understanding of the value of rewards: Run. All we're left with here is the worst of the "GIMEGIMEGIMENOWNOWNOW" entitlement generation.
People dont run 25mans, rather than make up reasons you think this is so just accept it, it was fun but its not being utilized much it doesn't need an incentive to bring players back it needs to be put to rest, if the majority of raiders are playing 10mans then give us good 10man encounters concentrate on whats working and run with it.
Its us players that ultimately decide what works and what doesn't why second guess us why assume 25 man raids are highly sort after when the stats clearly show 10 mans being far more popular, its not about effort or how hard it is to get a team together we mostly raid in guild groups anyway and most guilds are not just the 10 people who raid

We know what we like we play the way we want to and 10mans is where the majority of us spend our raid time adding 'incentives' to get players to do content they are not interested in will result in people feeling like they have to do it or are being forced into parts of the game we would do now if we wanted, we are not doing it now that should tell you something

25 mans are not broken they dont need to be fixed they just are not as popular as 10 mans and making the gear better just makes us feel like we are being coraled into a grind rather than playing the game we want to play in the way we want to play it.
[quote]

Agreed but this isn't the incentive that will do it. From talking amongst my fellow raiders it's just going to cause more strife on officers deciding who gets what of this rng based loot that you may never see again.


We just /roll in my guild no drama.

Can't really just /roll in top end progression raiding, it's always about what benefits the raid most and thats up for debate always of what's best.
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea


I like this part
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think the types of conversations taking place, if nothing else, show that it's at least an engaging change that could mean... something. We'll have to see how it works out, and maybe some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea, or maybe we all forget about the forums posts we're making right now because it becomes a solid and accepted part of the game's itemization. In the meantime, your feedback, and back-and-forths, and thoughts, are helpful.


Except we're playing the game NOW and telling you it's a mistake. Can I get a prize when I say I told you so later when you drop 25s next expansion?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqXltcnOMCY
Organizing a 25man raid in this game today on the vast majority of servers is an act of IRL magic


This is because forming a 25 man guild will drag the 10 players it takes to run it down, rather than up. And a few ilvls on a couple items won't get 15 bad players on most realms to killbosses they otherwise couldn't ability wise, or won't effort wise.

Hardmodes killed 25 man raids, NOT the change in lockouts or gear levels.

This 6 ilvl change will have marginal impact. I'm calling it out right now.
01/23/2013 06:00 PMPosted by Primalshock
Agreed but this isn't the incentive that will do it. From talking amongst my fellow raiders it's just going to cause more strife on officers deciding who gets what of this rng based loot that you may never see again.

It is going to cause more unnecessary drama and going to hurt the few remaining PuGs left as well with more chances of loot scamming going on that doesnt get punished or see loot just disapear. Blizzard is really sitting there trying to appease both sides and want to keep RNG involved and despite them trying to mean good, it just is not.
01/23/2013 06:13 PMPosted by Firestyle
Hardmodes killed 25 man raids, NOT the change in lockouts or gear levels.

How so when there was many 25 man raids and guilds when ToC and ICC was out? I did not notice a decline until raid lockouts was combined and gear equalized and have even talked to players of guilds that decided that they would move to 10 man in Cata because of the combined lockouts and same gear.
01/23/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Bashiok
It is still a chance. There will be cases where a 10-player raid will have more Thunderforged items than a 25-player raid.


And that's why this system wont work... Because you're just providing a chance to fix the problem. Idiots.
01/23/2013 06:13 PMPosted by Firestyle
Hardmodes killed 25 man raids, NOT the change in lockouts or gear levels.


No they did not....

The fact that people find it easier to run 10s have killed off 25s. 25s require a larger bench etc etc etc. If 25 was so easy, so loot filled etc why aren't there more?
I personally won't be raiding 5.2 with these changes. Not going to deal with the loot drama.
One of the things that I don't get is that it is actually easier to do 25 mans than it is to do 10.

In 25's, you have a lot more people which means more variety of abilities and more of them to use. You can actually do a lot of the odd ended things as someone pointed out.

In 10, you may end up missing one buff, which could be important and spec altering.

Heroic Modes are even worse, as some of them just require X class to do it within reason.

A good example of this is Melejarek, who has adds that are nescessary to dispel constantly as they use their Quickening ability. With how much dispels cost, and how limited the number of people can actually remove it, it becomes quite difficult. Our main group has to run 2 priests just for double mass dispel.

25 mans won't struggle to get gimmicks like those taken care of, they'll have the luxury of bringing multiples of that class without damaging their overall build.

10 mans are extremely tuned, and no mistakes can be made. 25 mans you can actually have maybe 1 or 2 screw ups.

10's are actually more difficult that 25's, just from my observations.
Incentive too high for 25?


Nope. Not high enough, actually. Or else, those ten man guilds running 2-3 ten man groups within a guild would be doing 25 mans.
01/23/2013 06:16 PMPosted by Waraila
Hardmodes killed 25 man raids, NOT the change in lockouts or gear levels.


No they did not....

The fact that people find it easier to run 10s have killed off 25s. 25s require a larger bench etc etc etc. If 25 was so easy, so loot filled etc why aren't there more?


This. It's simple psychology: People will take the path of least resistance to get the best reward. Otherwise why make yourself annoyed trying to keep 24 other people happy/playing together when you can just keep 9? Same server first feats, same items, same mounts, same everything. THIS is when 25s man have gone downhill, and it's painfully obvious to everyone but Blizzard apparently.

Unwillingness to even do the simple thing of making separate 10 and 25 man feats is proof of this. It changes NOTHING for Blizz, and makes things better, cause nothing's more demoralizing knowing 25 is harder to organize and seeing server first spam from a 10 man guild, especially on a tier where almost every fight features much easier 10 man encounters compared to the 25s for whatever reason.

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