10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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This is a terrible idea and will have little to no impact on reviving 25man raiding. Tbh this seems silly to do loot this way and remove VP upgrades.

"A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups" as well i feel like this change would only add to more headaches.


25 in some cases aren't as difficult and don't have as much personal responsibility as 10's, sorry try again.


Let's see, just in Heart of Fear alone you have the following fights that have a mechanic that requires SPACING.

-Blade Lord
-Wind Lord
-Emperess

HALF of ONE raid requires a mechanic of spreading your raid team out over a certain distance to avoid a mechanic becoming fatal to the raid. Space 10 people out over a 35 yard parameter. Now space 25 out. Tell me, which one leaves more room for each individual?

Now, what else requires spacing in this tier of content?

-Protectors
-Tsulong
-Lei Shi
-Sha

Oh, look. An ENTIRE raid of four bosses has a spacing requirement involved. Guess those are so much harder with 15 fewer people to spread over an identically sized area, right?

Let's cover Mogu'shan.

-Feng
-Spirit Kings

So, out of sixteen bosses, the number of fights that require a spacing mechanic, which is DRASTICALLY easier to accomplish with 15 fewer people in your raid, is NINE. That's OVER HALF.

Would you like to try that again, please?


This isnt a 10 vs 25 war. I can easily say, yeah 10s dont have the spacing issue 25's have,
but 10s cant afford to lose one person. Dps,healers, and tanks need to stay alive or its a wipe. In 25's you can afford to lose 5 people and barely make enrage timer.

There's pros and cons to both sizes. Depending on fight. One might be easier for said raid size and vice versa.

The point is....Why have this constant flame war between 10s and 25s, when you can simply have one universal raid? Most people will argue the epic feeling. Well being this game is going on 9yrs old. How epic of feeling is it really? Seriously?

In all honesty, these arguements isnt about Epicness, this is ALL above your EPEENS. Your need to feel better about yourself and look down at others. Paragon went to 10's does this mean they suck because theyre not a 25m progression guild? LOL
01/23/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Subrosian
Until you have created an incentive that makes 10-man players say "great, now I'm being forced to go 25", you haven't solved the issue. You need 10-man leadership to want to go 25-man. You need 10-man guilds where they can say "guys, we NEED to go 25, make this work".


I could say the same but with a 10M perspective. I think 10M is more fun, closer to my group of guildies, lags less, and quality of players often has to be better (because in a 10M a guild might have to jump to another main to down heroic content). There is no need to do just 25M raids. Nor should it be forced on this game esp now that 10M raids are established.

If Blizzard does anything as radical as taking away 10M or basically nerfing content of 10M (loot wise): they should take away 10 and 25 and make raids purely 15M.
I haven't read the entire thread so I'm not sure if this has been addressed, but is anyone else not liking all these different variations of items? Between LFR, Normal and Heroic I thought we had enough, but now this "Thunderforged" form seems like a bit much.

And what is going to happen when/if item upgrading is added back into the game at patch 5.3 (potentially). I really hope that these Thunderforged items essentially are just items fully upgraded (6 total ilvls rather then the 8 ilvls we have now). If this is the case I think it's a great change, but if not then I just don't like this change at all.

And as mentioned the more RNG chance with these items overall seems like a source of more frustration.
I can already see the loot drama coming. . .
01/23/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Thoridin
quality of players often has to be better (because in a 10M a guild might have to jump to another main to down heroic content). There is no need to do just 25M raids

You have absolutely no idea how hard some guilds stack speccs to achieve a kill. Need crazy AOE (Sha)? DKs and warlocks. Cleaving? Stack Warriors and Rogues (Garalon). Need Multi-DOTing? Spriests, Locks and Boomkins. Need 3 DKS, 4 Mages for a Will of the Emperor strat? Go feed your alts.
01/23/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Thoridin
Until you have created an incentive that makes 10-man players say "great, now I'm being forced to go 25", you haven't solved the issue. You need 10-man leadership to want to go 25-man. You need 10-man guilds where they can say "guys, we NEED to go 25, make this work".


I could say the same but with a 10M perspective. I think 10M is more fun, closer to my group of guildies, lags less, and quality of players often has to be better (because in a 10M a guild might have to jump to another main to down heroic content). There is no need to do just 25M raids. Nor should it be forced on this game esp now that 10M raids are established.

If Blizzard does anything as radical as taking away 10M or basically nerfing content of 10M (loot wise): they should take away 10 and 25 and make raids purely 15M.


It's not about relative difficulty. It's more about relative ease of management and popularity.
The logistics behind running a 25 man guild is insane compared to running a 10 man guild.

There are 36K 10 man guilds in the world; while there are only 3K 25 man guilds in the world.
01/23/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Thoridin
and quality of players often has to be better (because in a 10M a guild might have to jump to another main to down heroic content).


This is a common misconception, perpetuated by the swarms of 10man raiders who don't want their accomplishments to be invalidated. Contrary to popular belief, you don't get first kills in 25man with 10 people dead the whole attempt, carry 6 idiots who have no idea what they're doing, etc. The vast majority of 25man first kills cannot be achieved without everyone alive close to the entire fight.

I think the problem is that 10manners don't have a sense of perspective, being that they only raid 10man hardmodes. As a 25man player, i also have the opportunity to raid 10man hardmodes and i can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt that many of the aforementioned "difficulties" of 10man are either purely fictitious, or exist in 25man as well, no matter how much you try and deny that fact.
It's not about relative difficulty. It's more about relative ease of management and popularity.
The logistics behind running a 25 man guild is insane compared to running a 10 man guild.

There are 36K 10 man guilds in the world; while there are only 3K 25 man guilds in the world.


Might I suggest running your 25M guild differently? Leadership has a big influence on how any guild is run regardless of the size of the group.
Feels clunky and half assed. If you want to support 25m's over 10's, fine, but don't do it halfway with this RNG based clunky ilvl increase mechanic that will create an even bigger disparity between raid performances based on luck. Make it something consistent.
It's not about relative difficulty. It's more about relative ease of management and popularity.
The logistics behind running a 25 man guild is insane compared to running a 10 man guild.

There are 36K 10 man guilds in the world; while there are only 3K 25 man guilds in the world.


Might I suggest running your 25M guild differently? Leadership has a big influence on how any guild is run regardless of the size of the group.


Might I suggest that you actually run a 25 man guild before giving out advice. I have been running a 25 man guild for 6 years. How long have you been running a guild of any format?
TYPICAL 25M RAIDER - "Rewards us for guild management logistics, not challenging raid mechanics"

TYPICAL 10M RAIDER - "Dont punish us for choosing more challenging content over mass recruiting"

One seems more honorable to me.


One certainly seem more biased to me *Looks at poster*
01/23/2013 02:40 PMPosted by Thoridin
Might I suggest running your 25M guild differently? Leadership has a big influence on how any guild is run regardless of the size of the group.
He is correct. The logistics behind running a 25 man guild is insane compared to running a 10 man guild. I am a part of the leadership group in both settings, raid leader in 10s. 10's are an absolute joke to run compared to 25s if you want to have respectable progression. 25s take a lot more work.
IMO it needs to be an item that upgrades an existing item rather than a new item. This statement applies doubly true if you ever reintroduce the upgrade system (if you do, just allow thunderforged items to be up to 16ilvls higher or a heads up on the upgrade process). If necessary make the items specific like the pet upgrade stones (E.G. upgrades only Bracers of iLvl ~522-535, or only upgrades Chest of iLvl ~522-535)

My reasoning? Loot drama and just general annoyance (I never got my thunderforged item, - insert QQ here). Many people try to be as "complete" as possible in this game... Unless you allow enough of a drop rate to get everyone thunderforged items, then you at least need to make the system as flexible as possible, otherwise you'll just add more loot frustration than already exists. Possibly even consider it being a short cut to the iLvl upgrade system so that it's really only a head start on the upgrade process but not a bonus on top of it (if it does ever return).

Lastly 25mans have always had higher drops as we also have more people. 2.5x the drop rate will not be enough as we generally have 3x the people to gear. To really be attractive, 25's will need to see drop rates of 5-10x more than that of 10mans to really be felt.
Once again I think blizzard really misses the point.

The problem isn't about loot. Loot shouldn't be used as an incentive. The problem is logistics.

Blizzard seems to recognize logistics are the biggest problem for 25man raids and seem to be doing nothing about it. That's a huge issue, because it shows there's an obvious disconnect between the player base and blizzard. It's not due to a lack of feedback because there's people on the forums all of the time constantly saying that logistics are the issue and blizzard is doing nothing to fix the problem.

Then this "solution" is brought up. It's not really a solution. I doubt it'll stick either because as already brought up numerous times in this 25 page thread, Adding more RNG to the loot system is never a good idea. All this will accomplish is just more loot drama, even worse in a 25man setting where you'll have more raiders fighting over low drop chances. It didn't work in firelands with the crystals and it won't work in 5.3.

So unless blizzard can make a very clear and drastic change(which they don't seem willing to do) with the loot system, or actually make it easier to deal with a 25man raiding from a logistical point of view, all this change does is change things for the sake of change.

it solves nothing. It creates more problems.
01/23/2013 02:34 PMPosted by Cyous
You have absolutely no idea how hard some guilds stack speccs to achieve a kill.


I was creating a point with a opinion backed up by an opposite opinion.
If this thread is about 10M vs 25M and the survival of 25M based on opinion and subjective experience: then it is not going anywhere.

On a side note: you do not know my play history. How long I have played. What I have played in WoW.

Lastly, if the people of WoW are playing 10M because that is what they want to do. Democracy has spoken. If the people who want to play 25M raids will find people who want to raid 25M. It is called letting nature take its course.
01/23/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Hoveround
Thumbs up. Just keep Thunderforged OUT OF LFR!
I AGREE!!!!
Also just wanted to point out that I have a sneaking suspicion you have only enhanced the logistics difficulty for 25's with this move, which will make loot more complicated and frustrating at times for some teams. At least, that is my suspicion.

Another point: This adds a silly new element to tier pieces. We now have to consider the value of set bonuses compared to off pieces that have the potential to be half a tier higher in ilvl than tier ever can be. This is easily solvable - make tier the higher ilvl from the get go. Better solution - don't do this at all and just deal with the problem -- make 25's the official HC format or drop them.

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