10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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Actually, it feels like adding another loot type upgrade will make handing out loot in 25 mans harder, thus adding MORE difficulties in 25 man administration and logistics (guild BiS loot drama, optimization, etc).

Maybe a solution should be engineered that actually addresses the problem of organization and logistics. Like, I don't know, maybe improving the recruitment forums as a very basic start?
25 raiders already have higher ilvl than 10 raiders so not sure what this is all about


Lastly, if the people of WoW are playing 10M because that is what they want to do. Democracy has spoken. If the people who want to play 25M raids will find people who want to raid 25M. It is called letting nature take its course.


That is flawed logic. That is like saying "people were playing 25man back in ICC because people wanted to play 25man. Democracy has spoken."

At that point blizzard did not "let nature take its course," but rather they intervened.
01/23/2013 02:45 PMPosted by Thoridin
If the people who want to play 25M raids will find people who want to raid 25M. It is called letting nature take its course.


Except the nature here is a man made artificial system that Blizzard created by unifying loot in Cataclysm.

It's like taking a sweet water fish and putting into a salt water tank and watching it die and blaming nature for it.
Once again I think blizzard really misses the point.

The problem isn't about loot. Loot shouldn't be used as an incentive. The problem is logistics.

Blizzard seems to recognize logistics are the biggest problem for 25man raids and seem to be doing nothing about it. That's a huge issue, because it shows there's an obvious disconnect between the player base and blizzard. It's not due to a lack of feedback because there's people on the forums all of the time constantly saying that logistics are the issue and blizzard is doing nothing to fix the problem.

Then this "solution" is brought up. It's not really a solution. I doubt it'll stick either because as already brought up numerous times in this 25 page thread, Adding more RNG to the loot system is never a good idea. All this will accomplish is just more loot drama, even worse in a 25man setting where you'll have more raiders fighting over low drop chances. It didn't work in firelands with the crystals and it won't work in 5.3.

So unless blizzard can make a very clear and drastic change(which they don't seem willing to do) with the loot system, or actually make it easier to deal with a 25man raiding from a logistical point of view, all this change does is change things for the sake of change.

it solves nothing. It creates more problems.


Easiest solution would be free server transfers and or mergers. But they aren't willing to lose that cash flow.

Not only does this exacerbate the frustration of loot RNG in 10 mans (one of it's largest draw backs) it also makes for a larger logistical headache for someone running 25 mans. Loot should never be a motivation for choosing a raid size you are guaranteed to then have people who are motivated to be doing one raid size over another due to the loot and not the actual pros and cons of that raid size and their preferences about them.
Very disappointed, though not terribly surprised. Nobody in my 25 man is happy about this and many would prefer you not implement it. You could have had the same effect by giving 25 man raiders an extra coin per week without adding complexity to an already over-complicated loot system.

The most direct comparison to this proposal are the crystalized firestones and legendary fragments from Firelands. Both had higher drop rates (or where supposed to) in 25 mans. Neither had any impact on stemming the flow from 25s to 10s.

The thought process seems to be that the invisible hand of increased drop rates will guide people towards 25s. Invisible hands aren't enough. If you want to preserve 25s you will need obvious and easy to see benefits, prestige, or quality of life improvements. Benefits, prestige, or QoL. Any of the three will be sufficient. Prestige and QoL go a lot further than loot.

As long as I'm posting on the subject, I really wish the developers would get past the idea that it is solely a guild management logistical hurdle that is driving the inexorable decline of 25 mans. I'm sure you have the statistics on number of attempts required to down a boss. When you inadvertently (and temporarily) made it possible for wowprogress to track this, we all got to see the imbalance. Armed with this data, it is hard to argue against the idea that it takes 25 mans longer to learn fights than 10 mans. There is exponentially more chance for things to go wrong in a 25 man. While it would make me sad to see 25 mans tuned around that fact, doing so would go leaps and bounds further than +X% chance at +6ilvls on off-peice loot.

I worry now more than ever that the developers lack either the imagination or the will to do what is necessary and will simply go through the motions until the imbalance is pronounced enough to stop supporting 25 mans. For what it is worth, the most commonly suggested ideas from my guild are separate achievements/realm firsts and the occasional 25 man only mount (or similar vanity items).
01/23/2013 09:10 AMPosted by Magdalena
Crithto, will using the 5.2 equivalent of Elder Charms grant a chance at Thunderforged Loot or will it be exclusively limited to drops?

Yes, bonus rolls in 10- and 25-player raids will also afford you a chance to receive a Thunderforged item.

01/23/2013 09:24 AMPosted by Delritha
Hypothetically speaking, say a boss had 13 items that can drop from him. He doesn't drop any tier. How many of those 13 items would be marked that they can be thunderforged? All 13? only 4 of those 13? etc.

Hypothetically, yes, all 13 of those non-tier items would have a chance to be Thunderforged.

01/23/2013 09:48 AMPosted by Scathbais
Why must you introduce an artificial incentive that promotes a less favorable format for the majority of players? And by less favorable, I mean by simply looking at how many guilds raid 10 vs 25.

Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable is unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.

  • From Twitter:
    Will there be a visual to indicate you're wearing Thunderforged gear or just the iLvl difference?

    There won't be any visual effects, Thunderforged is a tag much like "Heroic" and indicates that the item is slightly better than its Normal/Heroic counterpart.

    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming.


    Lastly, if the people of WoW are playing 10M because that is what they want to do. Democracy has spoken. If the people who want to play 25M raids will find people who want to raid 25M. It is called letting nature take its course.


    That is flawed logic. That is like saying "people were playing 25man back in ICC because people wanted to play 25man. Democracy has spoken."

    At that point blizzard did not "let nature take its course," but rather they intervened.


    This is true. But pulling either way, the way to "fix" one format or the other is not to incentivize it so much that people do, in fact, feel compelled to leave their preferred format.

    There are plenty of potential creative solutions to make recruiting and managing 25s easier than it is now. Instead, they offer loot incentives. It doesn't actually address the problem.

  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.


  • This actually further complicates the logistics of running a 25 man guild by putting an additional burden of assigning yet another ilevel of loot onto random players by the master looter. More loot drama incoming as the master looter's job now becomes a bigger nightmare.

    You should make it so that when a lucky charm drops a loot in 25 mans it has a much greater chance of being TF loot than if the charm was used in 10 man. And remove the TF drops from standard boss loot making em exclusive to lucky charms. This removes the loot master from the equation thereby reducing drama.

    This, of course, has the downside of forcing people to farm lucky charms and we know how much many people hate dailies.
    As a H-raider that still has 3 LRF pieces, the RNG of thuderforged stuff is going to drive me crazy. Dislike this idea.


    This is true. But pulling either way, the way to "fix" one format or the other is not to incentivize it so much that people do, in fact, feel compelled to leave their preferred format.

    There are plenty of potential creative solutions to make recruiting and managing 25s easier than it is now. Instead, they offer loot incentives. It doesn't actually address the problem.


    Right, but it's important to address the fact that the rapidly disappearing 25-mans from the face of WOW raiding isn't necessarily because people don't like the raid size - but that they tipped the scales so far in the favor of 10s that 25s suffered as a result. Most people still don't acknowledge that being forced into a raid size can go both ways. People can be "forced" into 10s as much as they can be "forced" into 25s. As much as I am really in favor of just having one raid size and sticking to it, the people who like playing 25s are running out of 25-man guilds they can actually join. If my 25-man guild and the other 25-man guild on my server turns down an application from a player on our server, their options are either to be forced to run 10s if they want to raid on our server, or they can pay real-life money to transfer to a different server (assuming that there's even a 25-man guild with openings on another server). There's not really another option available for them because Elune went from having at least a dozen 25s and at least a dozen 10s to only having two 25s and having way more 10-man groups available. So, if you want a 10-man raid spot, it's easy for you to find one. If you want a 25-man raid spot - too bad. There are a couple of servers with more than 1 or 2 large 25-man guilds, but those numbers are getting smaller and smaller every day.
    01/23/2013 02:45 PMPosted by Thoridin
    On a side note: you do not know my play history. How long I have played. What I have played in WoW.

    I can assume things, especially when you clearly claim this:
    01/23/2013 02:29 PMPosted by Thoridin
    quality of players often has to be better (because in a 10M a guild might have to jump to another main to down heroic content). There is no need to do just 25M raids

    You're implying 25man raider don't need to know multiple speccs, regardless of the class variety. A quality player isn't determined by their ability to play multiple speccs. If they can perform their role(s) and an acceptable level for the guild their in, be it a single specc or across multiple toons, then that player is a quality player. If you can play every single specc at a mediocre level, then you're a mediocre player. If you can play your primary specc as strongly as those in top guilds, then your a top-quality player for that specc.

    I can play Resto to an "okay" degree, but I'm very, very good at Balance. So I play Balance instead of Resto. As MOP has been moving along, I don't feel comfortable playing Resto at a hardcore progression level (if I was asked to go Resto, I would suggest not). So, I'm a mediocre Resto druid, but very talented at Balance.

    Lets go with a metaphor -- A hammer is good for hammering in a nail. A screwdriver is for screwing a screw. A hammer is not good for screwing in a screw. A screwdriver is not good for hammering in a nail. Using a power tool to drive in a screw and using the battery pack on the base to hammer in a nail should be better than a screwdriver or nail? No, this power tool is not "better." It still gets the job done, that's all that matters.
    Critho: Why the larger gap between LFR and Normal ilvl than the one in 5.0? Seems like it may hurt players trying to gear up themselves (or alts) later in 5.2 to join a normal raid.
    Reposting what I posted in D&R:

    01/23/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Nezareth
    1 person in 10man does not directly translate to 1 person in a 25-man. In 25, given the size, you're more likely to see 3-5 people underperforming than just one unless you're at the VERY top. Sampled size and all.

    And this is one of the reasons why I quit 25s. I hated seeing several people underperform consistently. It's frustrating to no end, especially when you are on a small server that doesn't have any talent and can't attract new talent because the server's dead.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/dalvengyr

    We had a decent 25 man guild there. It's a barren wasteland. And the break between finishing content at the end of Cata was so large we lost too many and it became impossible to continue a 25. So the idea that our 25 man guild died was honestly MOSTLY due to the fact that:

    1) there was a HUGE lull in content
    2) the server was DEAD (server imbalance issues that Blizzard has yet to conquer without asking for $25 from each raider - which we did as a 10 man)
    3) it had NOTHING to do with loot

    That is why this change is silly and will do nothing in the grand scheme of things. Not saying I know what to do for 25s to keep them popular without alienating 10s, but I know what did kill 25s and loot percentages is not one of them.

    Also: I consistently offer myself up to be sat for bosses in MV/HoF if I don't need anything. This will just make it more difficult to gear up players that aren't consistently pushing progression. Bench players will be harder to maintain because they will be thrown less bones than usual.

    This is just a terrible idea all around.

    There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.



  • Having read almost all of the posts in this thread, the raiders in 25-man guilds (and particularly those in progression and "hard core" guilds) disagree that this will provide the incentive to increase 25-man raiding. They also mostly agree that it creates more issues for them in terms of loot distribution. And, it does nothing whatsoever to solve the logistical/administrative issues that make it much more difficult to sustain 25-man raiding.

    The most this idea (and any "better gear" possibility) can do is to increase demand of players to play in the platform; and I have not seen a single post in this thread in which anyone has said "great! This will get me to move out of 10-man raiding and into 25-man raiding."

    You have missed the mark.
    01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
    Crithto, will using the 5.2 equivalent of Elder Charms grant a chance at Thunderforged Loot or will it be exclusively limited to drops?

    Yes, bonus rolls in 10- and 25-player raids will also afford you a chance to receive a Thunderforged item.

    Hypothetically speaking, say a boss had 13 items that can drop from him. He doesn't drop any tier. How many of those 13 items would be marked that they can be thunderforged? All 13? only 4 of those 13? etc.

    Hypothetically, yes, all 13 of those non-tier items would have a chance to be Thunderforged.

    Why must you introduce an artificial incentive that promotes a less favorable format for the majority of players? And by less favorable, I mean by simply looking at how many guilds raid 10 vs 25.

    Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

    There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
  • Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.

  • From Twitter:
    Will there be a visual to indicate you're wearing Thunderforged gear or just the iLvl difference?

    There won't be any visual effects, Thunderforged is a tag much like "Heroic" and indicates that the item is slightly better than its Normal/Heroic counterpart.

    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming.


    What I fail to understand is why so many 25 man raiders ask or imply they need something to help with this format due to the logistical issues in running a 25 man raiding guild.

    Yet it always falls to give us more loot or better loot.

    Why not give them something that helps with the... logistical issues like cross server raiding or cross server guilds or I do not know maybe a specific amount of free faction or server transfers.

    Or maybe free elder tokens for a certain number of officers or free mats or something that frees up time.

    Why all this begging for higher ilevel or more loot?
    [quote="77080485630"]
  • The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.


  • How is this good? This sound miserably frustrating. Clearing content that is a boring farm for the only reason that you want a small chance at an upgrade. How is this any different then when you guys removed higher ilvl weapons from the last boss of a tier so that guilds wouldn't have to clear bosses for only those drops? You've now spread them across all of the bosses but it's the same requirement.
    To get more people back into 25 raiding, remove 10man raiding.

    As you said it's far more common to see 10 man raiding guilds than 25, simply because it's too easy.

    Compare this:

    http://worldoflogs.com/zones/Mogu'shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/#tabs-10N
    http://worldoflogs.com/zones/Mogu'shan_Vaults/The_Stone_Guard/#tabs-25N

    Obviously not a truly accurate representation, but what this means is that there are far more 10man guilds than 25's attempting content.


    That is flawed logic. That is like saying "people were playing 25man back in ICC because people wanted to play 25man. Democracy has spoken."

    At that point blizzard did not "let nature take its course," but rather they intervened.


    This is true. But pulling either way, the way to "fix" one format or the other is not to incentivize it so much that people do, in fact, feel compelled to leave their preferred format.

    There are plenty of potential creative solutions to make recruiting and managing 25s easier than it is now. Instead, they offer loot incentives. It doesn't actually address the problem.


    Oh, believe me, i agree with you.

    As a 40 and then 25man raider for 8 years, i find this to be a terrible solution. I was simply pointing out that the guy had flawed logic. Either way, he's probably just a troll.
    01/23/2013 03:04 PMPosted by Olestinos
    The most this idea (and any "better gear" possibility) can do is to increase demand of players to play in the platform; and I have not seen a single post in this thread in which anyone has said "great! This will get me to move out of 10-man raiding and into 25-man raiding."

    You have to understand I don't want to go back to 25 man raiding. It was fun, but to consistently watch so many people play under their potential is painful. I don't see why the benefits for 25 man raiding have to be so good to alienate the 10 man players.

    I'm not saying these changes are good, in fact I think they're bad, but you have to understand the fine line they have to walk to not completely piss off a large chunk of their player base.

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