10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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You already slap 10 man guilds in the face by dropping more gear in 25 man and now you increase the drop rate of thunderforged gear? It was bad enough when 25 man FL got their legendaries faster than 10 man and now you want to go down that road again?

Here's a suggestion, make 10 man boss kills drop 5 pieces of loot and even out the distribution and gearing disadvantage between the two.
You already slap 10 man guilds in the face by dropping more gear in 25 man and now you increase the drop rate of thunderforged gear? It was bad enough when 25 man FL got their legendaries faster than 10 man and now you want to go down that road again?

Here's a suggestion, make 10 man boss kills drop 5 pieces of loot and even out the distribution and gearing disadvantage between the two.


Your math is terrible
As a 10-man raider my first thought was "okay." A few ilevels won't make me feel like I need to do 25s in any way and I guess 25s get what they wanted (but I feel what they want is "me" to do 25s).

I actually wouldn't mind buffing all 25 gear by 4 ilevels (1/2 current valor upgrade), so that if/when you return valor upgrading that their advantage isn't insurmountable.
I guess everybody is forgetting how 10s dropped more firestones than 25s in firelands. Not just per person, but period - MORE in 10s.

It was a 'bug,' and it eventually got fixed, (it took quite a while - my guild had already killed heroic Rag before it got fixed, and we weren't super hardcore) but lets not rewrite history and say 25s had a firestone advantage.
Gosh, I'm just full of questions on this =P

Anyhow, last one (for now): What role do you see VP item upgrades playing here? Assuming they return in 5.3, are you concerned with the massive ilvl inflation we're seeing?

In addition, wouldn't the existence of Thunderforged on normal and heroic difficulties lead to more player quandaries when it came to deciding if it were worth upgrading items now or trying to ensure they waited on the slight chance that their BiS "Heroic Thunderforged" piece dropped?
I was honestly thinking that this is why they were going to get rid of Item Upgrades for this teir, that you were going to put in an "upgraded item" of gear as loot drops anyhow.

The fact that you're going to let 10-man raiders at least have a shot of having them drop pleases me.

What I THOUGHT you guys were going to do is have some sort of gear-upgrade token drop ala world drop bonus drops as a strict 25-man bonus. You could still upgrade gear with leftover Valor Points, but 25-man raiders would get those upgrades for free.

Anywho, we'll see how this pans out. If anything it'll just force high-end raiding guilds into going 25-man mode so they can get best-of-the-best gear. I doubt more casual guilds will care either way as long as they know they can eventually get good gear too without having the hassle of doubling their roster.

....Yanno. The whole "play with who you want" sort of thing Blizzard's been touting for the last four years. Can we help it if people would rather raid with friends then half-friends then 10-12 other people they'd rather see drown in 2 feet of water?
Does this mean that the scaling of 25 man raids will be a little more difficult to compensate?

Will this lead to more 25 man to 10 man conversions later in the tier? i.e After a while in 25's getting easier access to Thunderforged items something happens to a guild's core and a 10 man results. This 10 group would have a significantly easier time due to having an already better item level than a group that was always 10 and probably just finish off the tier that way.
Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.


They already do. This just increases that effect. In 25m loot is much more likely to be used, plus the ratio of loot to players is higher than 10m.

If you're going to go this route, at least have 10man drop 3 pieces instead of 2 (or perhaps 3 pieces on tier bosses, like it was in FL).


Again, this.

Also wondering what the percentages are going to be for the "chance/increased chance"
I guess everybody is forgetting how 10s dropped more firestones than 25s in firelands. Not just per person, but period - MORE in 10s.

It was a 'bug,' and it eventually got fixed, (it took quite a while - my guild had already killed heroic Rag before it got fixed, and we weren't super hardcore) but lets not rewrite history and say 25s had a firestone advantage.


^. QFT.
Adding another layer of ilevel gear to raiding is not fixing anything. It's not helping anyone, and it's certainly nothing to be excited about as a player.
Moo.

Random chance +6 ilevel bonuses seem pretty boring and really won't have any effect on boosting 25man raids.

In my opinion you need to look at raid infrastructure. The problem 25man raids have is when they can't fill composition wise. A 25man raid needs to keep a larger bench than a 10man guild.

So in this case look outside the box and find ways to make it easier coordination wise for 25man raid groups.

For instance:

Make a 25man baseline raid 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 dps.

Say a couple healers are out, instead of forcing the 25man raid to carry three or four benched healers on a regular basis, allow them to five-heal the encounter.

2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 dps. But give the raid a +10% bonus to healing taken.

Say a lot of dps are out but all the healers are on. Let the raid do that.

2 tanks, 7 healers and 16 dps. Give the raid a +5% damage bonus.


This helps the 25man raid groups work around trying to keep their roster viable to raid with without having to have such a large bench.
Instead of dropping thunderforged itens, we could see a new kind of mote that would upgrade a choosen item. The way this is intended, it will only generate more drama on loot distribuition, because ppl will want to wait for the TF one drops. Also, it would be great to have at least a guaranteed TF item at a 25 kill.
01/23/2013 09:07 AMPosted by Daerioz
This will not help bring back 25s.


This.

Unless the chance is something close to 100% for 1 Thunderforged item to drop per kill, I don't see this helping the slightest.
Maybe it's just me, but you already have the solution to 10s v. 25s. You're doing it in Asia already.

Why not at least TRY that before coming up with some other crazy, overcomplicated process that ultimately relies on the RNG, which, by now has embittered a number of players.
I appreciate the effort, I truly, truly do but this isn't the answer. Random loot is abysmal. It forces you to farm old content for rare drops and it limits your ability to substitute in trials and ALTs into your raid for fear that you'll miss that unique drop.

This isn't even a band-aid to the current problem unless the drop rate is so significant that its not close to rare.

(Reposted from D&R forum discussion.)
I like it, throw in some thunderforged LFR pieces in - why not it'll be lower ilevel than normal anyways.


No. Please no. LFR is a way to see content, not get geared.


How isn't it a way to get gear? Are you saying those who have full time jobs and families don't deserve any gear? I honestly don't get the mind set. Just because they don't play as much as you, doesn't mean they don't deserve something for the effort they put in.

The ilvl of the gear is already much lower. If they did it, they could make it a normal raid ilvl. Wouldn't really hurt anything. Gear isn't guaranteed every run. Considering it's already (from what I read) a chance to drop... I don't see a problem.

Edit: I'd also say LFR is sometimes worse than a normal raid schedule, but alas. I like it because I don't stay in the same place for hours on end. I can do what I want, when I want w/o being tied down night after night.
Tbh sounds great, but i would like to know roughly the % chance to drop in 25man compared to 10mans. This is just a minor step in the direction to save 25mans.

I refuse to go to 10man, but i still think like for instance each boss on 25man should give more valor points too.
I do not see this solving any problems other than creating an entire new problem. I do 10m and have cleared all of the content other than protectors elite. It is hard enough to get BiS gear as it is with a boss dropping 13 different items and 3 of those are tokens. Now I do not mind a slightly better Ilvl being dropped for 25m, I do find it annoying that it is going to be just as random as 10m loot is.

Now I not only need worry about if my BiS item is going to drop, but now I have to hope that it is going to be the Thunderforged BiS. This will cause everyone to upgrade their tier first unless they have a Thunderforged BiS. Then sit on that valor until they have filled a BiS with Thunderforged. This is going to be a problem for both 10 and 25m heroic guilds that progress to rank.

A way this could work out is give all the Heroic items a 0/4 upgrade, and then the "thunderforged" Items will come with 2/4 of those upgrade slots already filled. This would allow them to have to farm less valor to make sure they have full upgraded BiS. But, this would require upgrades activated at all times.

Another question is, are the weapons going to be allowed to be Thunderforged? If so that is going to cause even more problems being that weapons atm are the biggest upgrade you can get over tier bonus's. If I were to finally get my mace one day and it is not thunderforged, in some 25m's someone has probably been saving their DKP for that, takes it then next week they have spent all their dkp on last weeks weapon their thunderforged weapon drops and he cannot buy it, therefore missing out on BiS weapon. Same goes for 10m later during farm and once upgrades are available, we arent going to want to upgrade the weapon un thunderforged and sit on that valor or be forced to upgrade it b/c we're capped with valor.

This just seems like a bad idea all around :/, sounds great but just adds another completely random factor to loot that in 10m is gonna be even more annoying and cause people to sit on DKP/Valor a slot to its maximum potential.
I am dissapoint, Blizzard.

Why not allow cross realm raiding or maybe, I don't know, free server transfers and realm closures to build up the available raiding populations of all realms?

Or maybe scale it down to 20 man, so the group is easier to fill.

You guys are smart, there has to be another solution you can think of...

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