10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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Just have us bite the bullet, make the change and say X amount of people is a raid. Stick to that X number.

I would love that, but now they are committed to double lockouts in Asia. I foresee no migration to 15.


Then make the split.

It's obvious that the Asian gamer is a different breed than the Western gamer. Their cultural differences show through with their gaming habits and activities.

Make a version for them, and one that works better for us. This constant back and forth by a dev team that's clearly and totally out of touch with it's playerbase (and has been since the start of Cata) is getting old after 3 years. The only glimmer of hope you gave us was DS and 4.3, that's all but gone at this point. 5.2 is a massive negative step backwards.

I have a lot of respect for what Blizzard does and the job that the dev team has in regards to making so many disparate groups happy, but sometimes I have to wonder if they're just needing fresh blood in there to get new solutions into the mix because they just can't seem to get anything in that isn't just a bandaid fix based off of a solution that either didn't work in the past or wound up causing more harm than good.


Totally with everyone else that agrees with this. It hurts to see such a talented group of people constantly struggling like this, especially when you really like the overall job they do.
I've read pretty much this whole thread at this point and I know these points have been made but I feel they are worth reitereatiing.

More loot isn't an incentive. 25 mans already receive more loot once you account for RNG and that clearly hasn't provided enough of an incentive. What makes you think even more loot will tip the incentive scales enough toward 25 man? Really at the top end of progression 25 mans are still fine, they are in fact flourishing, at this point more 25 man guilds have killed heroic sha of fear than 10s. Where 25 mans are dying is at the lower ends, the normal modes guilds that might kill a heroic or two by the end of tier. Incentives for 25 man should be weighted toward guilds of that caliber, things like making recruitment for these guilds easier by revitalizing dead servers would do far more then a little more rng loot.

Fundamentally adding loot to solve logistical difficulties is incoherent. A proper solution would be to tackle those logistical difficulties, make 25 mans reward more valor or lesser charms so officers in 25 mans could spend the time they would otherwise spend on dailies managing the guild, compensate time for time. Perhaps give 25 man guild leaders a limited amount of free server transfers to help them recruit on otherwise dead servers. On a raid boss if we have a dps problem we don't try to solve it with more healing, trying to solve logistical issues with more loot is similarly ridiculous.

For the higher end guilds this solution has its own set of problems, it creates even more logistical headaches in managing a good bench rotation. On farm if I have everything I need off a boss I will gladly sit on a boss and let someone else come in to get loot they need, with this new system that will happen much less. Rotating people through for loot tends to even out raid time pretty well on farm, keeping similar balance in raid time with the TF system is going to be a mess.

Lets also consider the other purpose of this system, a power creep mechanic like vp upgrades currently. For this purpose TF loot is strictly inferior to vp upgrades. A guild stuck on ANY boss will gain power at a fixed rate, assuming players are vp capping they will gain 2.67 ilvls per week, always. Whether they are stuck on elegon (farming 4 bosses), garalon (farming 8 bosses) or an early heroic (farming 16 bosses) their power increase per week is constant.

With TF gear that is no longer the case, a guild farming 4 bosses per week will generally gain less per week then a guild farming 8 bosses per week but not always. Its possible a guild may go for several weeks without a TF piece during which their progressive gear improvement will be stalled relative to now. Further it takes away control from the players, if a player spends time working out which item will yield the best upgrade they will get more out of the upgrade system then someone else. This seems like the kind of system Blizzard should be encouraging, all players get something out of it but you can spend more time optimizing to get more out of it.

To recap TF gear is a lose, lose, lose idea. It benefits NOBODY.
  • High end players deal with increased logistical difficulties in handling loot.
  • Less progressed players get a much less effcient system to help their progression.
  • 25 mans are not incentived at the lower progression levels where they are in danger of becoming extinct.


I urge you to reconsider this change. I know you expect this to be controversial however what this thread shows and numerous others on this same topic show is a surprising amount of unanimity among the player base. People whether they are 10 or 25 man raiders regardless of their progression level seem to realize the inherent incoherence of trying to use loot to solve logistical issues when loot has thus far proved a poor incentive. Why can't you?
I'd also like to add that you are implementing a secondary logistical issue for 25 man guilds with Thunderforged gear. In a 25 man guild, you need more than 25 people, obviously. That means for farm content you sit people for fights they don't need. When you add rare drop gear into the boss loot mix, then you now make that process more difficult as everybody who wears cloth will want the cloth piece.

Additionally players will save tokens for a chance at rare gear rather than regular gear. That sucks hard for a lot of groups as I doubt the BiS TF item drops off the same boss as BiS pre-TF item, for example. This is obviously a HIGHLY bloated example, but it stands true.

You add variables that aren't fun or helpful or provide any sort of balance is the bottom line I'm shooting for.
Speaking as a 25-man raider, I think the philosophy is all wrong. You guys say you don't want to return to ICC where 25s got better gear because that would be a slap in the face to 10 man raiders, but the rise of 10 mans happened BECAUSE of changing away from the ICC system.

You should be incentiveizing 10 man guilds deciding, "Maybe we should go the extra mile and try to put together 25 mans". This is not enough. If Thunderforged was incredibly rare and only available in 25 man, that'd be something 25s are looking for. This is not enough to draw people away from 10s.
I've read pretty much this whole thread at this point and I know these points have been made but I feel they are worth reitereatiing.

More loot isn't an incentive. 25 mans already receive more loot once you account for RNG and that clearly hasn't provided enough of an incentive. What makes you think even more loot will tip the incentive scales enough toward 25 man? Really at the top end of progression 25 mans are still fine, they are in fact flourishing, at this point more 25 man guilds have killed heroic sha of fear than 10s. Where 25 mans are dying is at the lower ends, the normal modes guilds that might kill a heroic or two by the end of tier. Incentives for 25 man should be weighted toward guilds of that caliber, things like making recruitment for these guilds easier by revitalizing dead servers would do far more then a little more rng loot.

Fundamentally adding loot to solve logistical difficulties is incoherent. A proper solution would be to tackle those logistical difficulties, make 25 mans reward more valor or lesser charms so officers in 25 mans could spend the time they would otherwise spend on dailies managing the guild, compensate time for time. Perhaps give 25 man guild leaders a limited amount of free server transfers to help them recruit on otherwise dead servers. On a raid boss if we have a dps problem we don't try to solve it with more healing, trying to solve logistical issues with more loot is similarly ridiculous.

For the higher end guilds this solution has its own set of problems, it creates even more logistical headaches in managing a good bench rotation. On farm if I have everything I need off a boss I will gladly sit on a boss and let someone else come in to get loot they need, with this new system that will happen much less. Rotating people through for loot tends to even out raid time pretty well on farm, keeping similar balance in raid time with the TF system is going to be a mess.

Lets also consider the other purpose of this system, a power creep mechanic like vp upgrades currently. For this purpose TF loot is strictly inferior to vp upgrades. A guild stuck on ANY boss will gain power at a fixed rate, assuming players are vp capping they will gain 2.67 ilvls per week, always. Whether they are stuck on elegon (farming 4 bosses), garalon (farming 8 bosses) or an early heroic (farming 16 bosses) their power increase per week is constant.

With TF gear that is no longer the case, a guild farming 4 bosses per week will generally gain less per week then a guild farming 8 bosses per week but not always. Its possible a guild may go for several weeks without a TF piece during which their progressive gear improvement will be stalled relative to now. Further it takes away control from the players, if a player spends time working out which item will yield the best upgrade they will get more out of the upgrade system then someone else. This seems like the kind of system Blizzard should be encouraging, all players get something out of it but you can spend more time optimizing to get more out of it.

To recap TF gear is a lose, lose, lose idea. It benefits NOBODY.
  • High end players deal with increased logistical difficulties in handling loot.
  • Less progressed players get a much less effcient system to help their progression.
  • 25 mans are not incentived at the lower progression levels where they are in danger of becoming extinct.


I urge you to reconsider this change. I know you expect this to be controversial however what this thread shows and numerous others on this same topic show is a surprising amount of unanimity among the player base. People whether they are 10 or 25 man raiders regardless of their progression level seem to realize the inherent incoherence of trying to use loot to solve logistical issues when loot has thus far proved a poor incentive. Why can't you?

Pretty much this. Personally, I'd sooner quit than go back to 25s, but I know some who still try to keep doing them. More/better loot won't solve their problems, though.
In a hypothetical that follows the logic that has fueled Blizzard's game design recently, you want people to have a wealth of content to be reaching for. Dailies was an example of it in this expansion.

"I'm a player who is casual. I do heroics 5mans only. Every now and then, I get someone in full raid gear who does outstanding dps and looks cool. Maybe I should consider trying out raiding"

The above is not a bad thing. Content is in place for people who don't want to be stressed with the time commitment of raiding. But an incentive exists to push them to raid.

So why is the following a slap in the face to 10 man raiders?

"I spend the time 10 man raiding and have very good gear. Every now and then, we pug someone who raids in 25 man. He outperforms me slightly. This is a trade-off for the extra time he puts into more difficult encounters in 25 man. Maybe I should try out 25 mans"

10 man raiders are well rewarded for what they do. 25 man raiders are slightly better rewarded (in WotLK, I mean) to make up for the extra effort and harder mechanics they are forced to master. This catering to people, saying, "Well, we don't want them to feel forced into content" is silly. Its not forcing them, its offering them something else to strive for.

This change does not do enough.
I've read pretty much this whole thread at this point and I know these points have been made but I feel they are worth reitereatiing.

More loot isn't an incentive. 25 mans already receive more loot once you account for RNG and that clearly hasn't provided enough of an incentive. What makes you think even more loot will tip the incentive scales enough toward 25 man? Really at the top end of progression 25 mans are still fine, they are in fact flourishing, at this point more 25 man guilds have killed heroic sha of fear than 10s. Where 25 mans are dying is at the lower ends, the normal modes guilds that might kill a heroic or two by the end of tier. Incentives for 25 man should be weighted toward guilds of that caliber, things like making recruitment for these guilds easier by revitalizing dead servers would do far more then a little more rng loot.

Fundamentally adding loot to solve logistical difficulties is incoherent. A proper solution would be to tackle those logistical difficulties, make 25 mans reward more valor or lesser charms so officers in 25 mans could spend the time they would otherwise spend on dailies managing the guild, compensate time for time. Perhaps give 25 man guild leaders a limited amount of free server transfers to help them recruit on otherwise dead servers. On a raid boss if we have a dps problem we don't try to solve it with more healing, trying to solve logistical issues with more loot is similarly ridiculous.

For the higher end guilds this solution has its own set of problems, it creates even more logistical headaches in managing a good bench rotation. On farm if I have everything I need off a boss I will gladly sit on a boss and let someone else come in to get loot they need, with this new system that will happen much less. Rotating people through for loot tends to even out raid time pretty well on farm, keeping similar balance in raid time with the TF system is going to be a mess.

Lets also consider the other purpose of this system, a power creep mechanic like vp upgrades currently. For this purpose TF loot is strictly inferior to vp upgrades. A guild stuck on ANY boss will gain power at a fixed rate, assuming players are vp capping they will gain 2.67 ilvls per week, always. Whether they are stuck on elegon (farming 4 bosses), garalon (farming 8 bosses) or an early heroic (farming 16 bosses) their power increase per week is constant.

With TF gear that is no longer the case, a guild farming 4 bosses per week will generally gain less per week then a guild farming 8 bosses per week but not always. Its possible a guild may go for several weeks without a TF piece during which their progressive gear improvement will be stalled relative to now. Further it takes away control from the players, if a player spends time working out which item will yield the best upgrade they will get more out of the upgrade system then someone else. This seems like the kind of system Blizzard should be encouraging, all players get something out of it but you can spend more time optimizing to get more out of it.

To recap TF gear is a lose, lose, lose idea. It benefits NOBODY.
  • High end players deal with increased logistical difficulties in handling loot.
  • Less progressed players get a much less effcient system to help their progression.
  • 25 mans are not incentived at the lower progression levels where they are in danger of becoming extinct.


I urge you to reconsider this change. I know you expect this to be controversial however what this thread shows and numerous others on this same topic show is a surprising amount of unanimity among the player base. People whether they are 10 or 25 man raiders regardless of their progression level seem to realize the inherent incoherence of trying to use loot to solve logistical issues when loot has thus far proved a poor incentive. Why can't you?
all of this
Remember back when Blizzard said they weren't going to make the LFR gear in Tier 15 better than the previous tier's heroic mode gear? Well, depending on set bonuses, 502 gear is gonna be better than non-upgraded Tier 14 Heroic. Gonna be Dragon Soul going from Firelands all over again, same difference between 384 T13 and 391 T12 Heroic, when there is a 7 ilvl difference between the new LFR tier and the previous heroic tier (without upgrades), you're gonna have a bad time.

P.S. LFR gear in Tier 15 being ilvl 502 pretty much goes against this whole linear progression idea Blizzard has been talking about... the gear is equivalent to Heroic MSV and way better than Normal T14 in every possible way. People are pretty much gonna skip Normal mode Tier 14 and go straight into Tier 15 with the new ilvl in LFR, which goes against everything Blizzard said they intended for the MoP raid progression model. GG Blizz, GG.
Thank you Blizzard. As a 25m guild, we are greatful and very excited about this change.

Because we are focused and passionate, we have kept our 25m together raiding every week for about 4 years now. Our passion stems from this wonderful, addictive world you have created for us. The relationships formed within and the fun we have enrich our lives daily. Ten mans are fun, but nothing packs the house like a 25m that you can count on and look forward to.

btdubs, our server is in desperate need of a merge!!! Would love to merge with Killrogg :)

Thank you!! <3 <3
Iso
www.LateCrew.net
ITT: a lot of people blaming Blizzard for their loot drama. I can't believe how many posts I've seen from guild leaders/officers saying that this additional half-tier will make their loot drama worse. If someone is causing loot drama, get rid of them. That person's attitude is upsetting other people in the raid, and it's not worth it. Imagine this:

Team Player: Wow, the thunderforged version dropped this week!
Drama Llama: That sucks, I (won a roll/spent dkp/kissed up to the RL's gf) for the normal version last week. This one has an extra 30 of my primary stat!
Team Player: True, but you still got an upgrade, and now we've both got a good item in that slot.
Drama Llama: Now you'll do 2k more dps than me based on (insert random simulation website). I'm going to lose my raid spot, and the world will come to an end as the sun cools into a cosmic cinder.

Which one of these folks would you like to play with? If you're spending a ton of time on loot distribution, maybe you need to look at your players' attitudes as well as their hand-eye coordination. The rest of your raid will thank you for it.

Here's the thing: Blizzard is giving us a free (FREE!) chance at randomly getting an item that is better than normal. Rather than crying and moaning about how much harder it will be to get a full BiS set, and feeling entitled to the special drop, I encourage everyone to focus on the normal versions and take it as a gift when the thunderforged item shows up.
ITT: a lot of people blaming Blizzard for their loot drama. I can't believe how many posts I've seen from guild leaders/officers saying that this additional half-tier will make their loot drama worse. If someone is causing loot drama, get rid of them. That person's attitude is upsetting other people in the raid, and it's not worth it. Imagine this:


It is more of a hassle for the officers to determine loot. AKA makes the main problem with 25s worse....

The logistics... this just adds more headaches to the raid leadership in 25s that it does not need or want.
01/23/2013 07:10 PMPosted by Ollix
So why is the following a slap in the face to 10 man raiders?


There is no difference in challenge between 10 and 25m as far as the actual fights themselves go (speaking on average here), so you being given better rewards than people doing the same difficulty of fight because 1-3 of the group put in a little extra time outside of the raid is completely uncalled for. There's also the point that your example speaks as if 25m is superior content to what is done by 10's, and that's completely opinion driven rather than fact driven.
Related*

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01/23/2013 07:15 PMPosted by Dascylus
LFR gear in Tier 15 being ilvl 502 pretty much goes against this whole linear progression idea Blizzard has been talking about... the gear is equivalent to Heroic MSV and way better than Normal T14 in every possible way. People are pretty much gonna skip Normal mode Tier 14 and go straight into Tier 15 with the new ilvl in LFR,

I think that's intended. They don't want to make guilds raid old content to gear up new recruits, but they do want the old content to remain relevant in the gearing-up process. They intend this to take place in the form of LFR, and by gating access to LFR by item level.

In order to get to the 5.2 LFR, new 90s will need to do a couple runs of 5.0 LFRs, first.
I don't think 25-man raiders actually want better loot, just recognition as something different than 10-man.

Split the achievements back into 10/25 and people will be less depressed about 25's.


Terrible idea.

If you split the achievements, then the 25 man guild will get their own achievement AND the 10 man achievement because they gear up faster than 10 mans do, and will outgear the "equivalent" 10 man on the server. Then you piss off all the 10 man guilds that were working just as hard to get the achievement meant for them.

The whole "better gear" solution is terrible because it doesn't address the actual problem, which is raid leaders and guild leaders don't want to lead 25 mans because they're a pain in the neck.

The only solution is one that makes 10 man guilds go "Wow, that's a pretty cool idea, and it would be nice to have, but I can see where the 25-mans NEED something like that and we really don't so I'm ok with not having it."

That is the ONLY way this works.
01/23/2013 07:38 PMPosted by Evannder
If you split the achievements, then the 25 man guild will get their own achievement AND the 10 man achievement because they gear up faster than 10 mans do


Not if you make them mutually exclusive... aka if you get one, you can't get the other.
01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.


But that's okay for China?

Lets be honest, the only reason you have so many more 10 man raiding guilds than 25 man is because they are logistically easier to manage. That's it.

Some fights are harder in 25s than on 10s just like some fights are easier in 25s than on 10s. So the actual play difficulty BS is out the window. The biggest issue is the logistics.

So now for 25s the added benefit is the what? 5% chance? 10% chance? Of dropping one of these thunderforged whatevers? Oh wait, you won't actually tell us the chance will you. Still not enough.


Terrible idea.

If you split the achievements, then the 25 man guild will get their own achievement AND the 10 man achievement because they gear up faster than 10 mans do


Stupidity like this is hilarious. As it stands right now they do not gear up faster. The additional valor for doing 5s over 10s doesn't matter because every serious raider will cap every week anyways. 10 player drops 2 items per boss. Thats 1 item per 5 people. 25 player drops 5 items per boss. That is still 1 item per 5 people.

If you are going to argue at least use facts kid.


First of all, don't call me "kid." There's no reason for insults just because you're upset everyone doesn't agree with you on everything, and I can assure you that you're more of a kid than I am.

Second, the facts are that 25 mans see a lot less sharded items at the start of a new instance because they usually have every type of armor and weapon that drops covered. My raid as an example, we see the Warrior/Hunter/Monk/Shaman tier tokens almost every !@#$%^- time, and we get a ton of plate dps gear and have no plate dps to give it to. We kill a boss for the very first time and don't get anymore powerful. 25's do. And if 25's funnel their gear to their top performers, and then take those 10 people and go crush the 10 mans, yeah, it's a lot easier for them.

If you're going make your feeble attempt to argue against my post, consider the facts on both sides of the argument, not just the few facts that support your side.

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