10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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01/24/2013 06:25 PMPosted by Bomdanil
you know just go look at wowprogresses front page you'll see where I'm going with this.


I never said that there weren't skilled 25m groups, I just stated that 25's have an easier time carrying dead weight than 10's do which is why they were the preferred pug format in Wrath despite being the "harder" difficulty.


Uh, I'm dead certain 25 man ICC was the preferred pug format because it offered much better loot than the 10 man counterpoint. There's also no need to to qualify 25-man Wrath content it as the harder difficulty with quotations, because it's undeniable that it was all more difficult (excepting the Nightfall, of course).
01/25/2013 07:14 AMPosted by Meioh
I never said that there weren't skilled 25m groups, I just stated that 25's have an easier time carrying dead weight than 10's do which is why they were the preferred pug format in Wrath despite being the "harder" difficulty.


Like the person above me said, people PUGd Wrath 25's because they gave higher ilevel loot.

The fallacy of 25-mans being able to "carry dead weight" just isn't true. If one of the 25 people screw up a raid mechanic, it is just as likely to kill you as if someone screws up a mechanic on 10-man. You also have 25 points of failure for someone to make an 'oops' in 25-man. Things like the Ultraxion button require personal responsibility regardless of the raid size. The DPS requirements on 25s are just as harsh as the DPS requirements on 10s.

The entire discussion has zero to do with boss difficulty and personal responsibility inside the actual raid. It's not about the bosses or what happens during boss fights that makes 25-mans less desirable as a raid size in Cata and MOP. In fact, outside of LFR, there isn't a raid where you can "carry" anyone. LFR achieves being easy by stripping every fight of the need for personal responsibility. The 25-man normal and heroic fights, however, require the same amount of personal responsibility as the 10-man normal and heroic fights.

The boss fights aren't the problem. The problem is the administrative barriers before you hit the point of entering the raid dungeon, and the responsibilities of being an officer and raid leader.
Thunderforged would bring so many additional problems to a 25man raiding team. One of the "problems" of 25man raiding is that you need some back-up raiders. You need a team of at least 30 (usually closer to 35) raiders to ensure a full, viable raid group every night. Rotating players for repeat kills of "farm" bosses is made easy once a round of players get their loots previous weeks. With the implementation of Thunderforged items, nobody would be willing to sit out because an upgrade would always be possible, especially with the addition of bonus rolls.

Another problem comes with the DKP due to the chance of that special BIS rare loot. It further encourages sitting on DKP.

If Thunderforged was related to the valor item upgrades in some way that could make things work out better, but if that was the case why the need for a new system anyway? Just have random 1/2 or 2/2 upgraded items.

Please don't make additional organizational problems for 25man guilds.

Why did 10 mans need the incentive of having the same loot as 25 mans back in Cata? Blizzard should have just eliminated 10 mans back then and then this problem would have never existed.


In Burning Crusade, people really liked the single 10-man instance there, but there wasn't a progression path past that existed for people to keep progressing in 10s. There were some people who really liked the smaller raid size.

In WOTLK, they provided that 10-man experience, but the 10s were A) easier boss difficulty, B) lower ilevel, C) different achievements, D) on different lockouts, and E) harder to recruit for.

There were, however, plenty of 10-man "strict" guilds that never set foot in 25's, and they had their own leader-boards and rankings and achievements for it that allowed you to be a proud 10-man strict raid team.

In Cataclysm, Blizzard eliminated A, B, C, and D - therefore tipping the scales heavily on E in favor of 10s. By turning all those nobs in the direction of making 10s the "path of least resistance" to raiding, it tipped the scales in a way that makes it nearly impossible for new 25's to form. We've now hit the point where 25-mans are harder to form and recruit for. People recruiting for new guilds are largely having to pick up 10 and jump into the pool because it's too hard to ask people to wait until they pick up 15+ more people to start raiding - the path of least resistance to guild creation is the one that everyone is taking. Fortunately, that means A and B aren't the only nobs Blizzard can potentially turn to keep 25's as a viable size for new guilds to join. In addition, the change Blizzard made today still means that the raids are largely the same boss difficulty, same ilevel (just different drop chances), same achievements, and same lockout.

For example, lowering the administrative burden on 25s could include things like bringing back one size of cauldrons - only the 25-man size. Let 10s have to deal with individual flasks, but have the 25-mans able to choose to provide the consumables at the guild-level if they so choose. Removing cauldrons from 25s continues to be a quality of life issue with everyone using different flasks now. It wouldn't impact 10s at all, but it impacts 25s, and would make it actually seem like Blizzard cared about supporting the ability of 25s to be successful. If Blizzard wants 25s to work, they need to improve the quality of life and ease of creating a large guild.

Also, if they want thunderforged items to not have an administrative burden on 25s, they should just make all thunderforged drop from tokens (eg. any item you get from using the tokens you farm is a thunderforged item and the chance to get the items from your coins is significantly higher in 25s).


This might be the best post I've read on this subject.

I feel like the Thunderforged gear idea has its heart in the right place, but it doesn't address the actual problem. Give 25 man raid leads better tools to do their jobs. I maintain that the abysmal state of the recruiting forums should absolutely be the very first place to start. Beyond that, doing things like giving 25 man guild cauldrons, or offering a way to get discounts on realm transfers for new recruits, etc, would be addressing the actual problem.

Providing incentives for people to do a particular format is ALWAYS going to yield an imbalance. One tier 25s will be popular to the detriment of 10s, the next 10s may be popular to the detriment of 25s. It doesn't need to be this way.
i still think it would be better to get an item to upgrade an item you already have then to get an item that is higher ilvl to drop. this would make it so that the rng of different gear dropping would not cause the issue of ppl not seeing there type of gear as thunderforged quality.

i thought that they posted that the valor ilvl increase was not going to still work for 5.2 gear at least not at first.

the only issue i can see with making it an item upgrade and not just a higher lvl item is that they would not want us save them up for bis gear.
First i suggest that they make the item for upgrading be tagged as normal or heroic and only work with gear tagged with the same type.
Second make it have a time limit on how long it will stay in your bags without being used, maybe around 2 hours.
Third make it only useable with the gear for the 5.2 raid.
Making it so that Thunderforged effect would feel more epic because it would not be as much of a waste when there is no one to use the upgraded item that drops compared to an item that would upgrade an item.
Without really dramatic changes to improve the ability for people to choose 25s, it is still likely that 25s won't exist in the next expansion. Even PTR and Beta testing favors 10-mans, with the 25-man Beta testing almost feeling like an after-thought once the 10s were done for MOP. The psychological impacts of that are that Blizzard cares more about testing the 10s than they do the 25s. Blizzard is favoring 10s in every aspect of the game and that hurts the 25s ability to exist as a raid size - because right now, your choice of PTR testing is 10s or nothing for all the PTR testing of 5.2 that has been done thus far. Supporting every aspect of 25s also includes making sure that 25s get equal opportunity to beta testing and PTR testing their boss size.


The only thing that needs to change to make 25s better, is the quality and desire of raiders to do 25s. As an officer of a former 25 man guild that is now a 10 man guild, and more importantly the recruitment officer, the biggest challenge facing 25 man raiding is the culture of game and the mentality of the raiders.

I don't care what Blizzard favors or not, but give me 30 or so raiders who will show up, know their class to an expert level, and research fights - and I'll run a 25 man guild.

But the amount of !@#$%^- you need to be, to sift through the crap applications, failed trial recruits, 2 month raid-then-no-show raiders, and when-the-going-gets-tough-the-"tough"-don't-login raiders, is absurd.
Crithto (blue poste) states: "...10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.
We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming."

Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is sooo offbase and incorrect it's unfortunate you even stated this Crithto. The ONLY clear difference of "effort v. reward" is in the organization of a 25man raid. There are bosses that logistically are harder for both raid sizes. 25man already receives benefits for it's size with a higher loot per person drop rate, more battle rezzes per person for progression mistakes, easily met raid buffs and flexibilty of roles. 10man raids put more "effort" in per person than a 25man raid and have reduced role flexibility. I've raided both and my contributions are under much higher scrutiny in a 10man environment, especially in a heroic encounter. It's a pretty big insult to 10man raid groups to suggest "encounter effort" is less, and you shoud retract that portion of your statement.

I do raid 10's because it IS more fun, for me. Much less 'loot drama', fewer cliques in guild, closer friendships, and I enjoy being relied on to play well. 25man just makes me another 'one of the guys', imo, and doesn't provide the same level of enjoyment. Not to flame this, but if you are going to represent such an inaccurate statement, at least use qualitative percentages or vagueness with words like "some" or "most" or "more likely to". Absolute statements are "almost" =P always inaccurate.

The only thing that needs to change to make 25s better, is the quality and desire of raiders to do 25s. As an officer of a former 25 man guild that is now a 10 man guild, and more importantly the recruitment officer, the biggest challenge facing 25 man raiding is the culture of game and the mentality of the raiders.

I don't care what Blizzard favors or not, but give me 30 or so raiders who will show up, know their class to an expert level, and research fights - and I'll run a 25 man guild.


Well, yes, that's the focus on administrative burden that I'm trying to say needs to be compensated for to make it worth doing. You'll get better quality raiders if they introduce things that increase the desire for high-quality raiders to want to join the raids. People are going to follow the path of least resistance - so either you need just one path, or you need to acknowledge that the two paths aren't equal. You get officers willing to do the work if Blizzard provides multiple layers of support and the raiders have the desire to run the content. It's possible that Blizzard pushed the culture of raiding so far that 25s aren't long-term sustainable into the future of WOW, but they also hold the power to bring the teeter-totter of desirability back towards 25s if they want to. However, all their decisions favor helping 10s at the cost of hurting 25s.
Its stupid rediculous easy for a 25 to fall apart and turn into one or more 10 man guilds. If ever a moment comes where you only have 22 people on for raids, falling apart into a 10 man guild is inevitable.


And thats one of the reasons why people actually prefer 10 mans. Its much easier to get a 10 man going than a 25 man. I really enjoy jack in the box, more than I do BK, or McD. But the closest one is 3 hours away. So......you can understand I go to BK or McD. Not because it I like them more, but because the extra effort is not worth it.

In a perfect world, many people would choose many things over what they do now. But its not a perfect world and most people prefer a closer nit, easier formed group of their friends, then a 25 man cluster with a 10 person sidebar, trying to keep everyone happy. Its just easier, people want to come on to play a game, not be an HR manager.

People just need to face this fact. 25 mans are dying, and really, weren't that healthy to begin with. 10 mans were just that young upstart that offered an experience that many people preferred over 25 mans. And you can blame 10 mans ruining your 25 man monopoly....but ya know what, a competitor with a better option usually does things like that.
01/25/2013 05:34 AMPosted by Lissanna
For the record, I'm the recruitment officer for my guild's 25-man raid. I still think that a package of quality of life changes (not just cauldrons, but they're the easiest example) for 25s would make it easier for people to step up into those leadership roles.


I dont think its so much the difficulty part of it that is making people not want to do it, there isn't any prestige with running a successful 25m guild like there used to be. Honestly separating the achievements would be a much more welcome solution than this stupid rng loot idea. Most 25m raiders just want to be able to see on their achievements that they killed heroic garajal on 25m. Whether or not its harder in either difficulty doesnt matter, right now with the shared achieves there is no way to differentiate a 25m raider from a 10m raider. Honestly I think that is all most of us want from this.
Why would they keep it outta LFR when some people have trouble getting gear in LFR?
Some people cant get from one LFR grp of raids to another do to the fact that gear is almost impossable to get now
01/25/2013 07:12 AMPosted by Lissanna
I have no problem with making it such that 25-man raiders can't achieve both sets of achievements


I never understood this logic, If 10 mans and 25 mans are equal in difficulty then why cant someone get both achievements? Either your 10 man is better and faster than the ten best players of a 25 man or they aren't.

The only thing that needs to change to make 25s better, is the quality and desire of raiders to do 25s. As an officer of a former 25 man guild that is now a 10 man guild, and more importantly the recruitment officer, the biggest challenge facing 25 man raiding is the culture of game and the mentality of the raiders.

I don't care what Blizzard favors or not, but give me 30 or so raiders who will show up, know their class to an expert level, and research fights - and I'll run a 25 man guild.


Well, yes, that's the focus on administrative burden that I'm trying to say needs to be compensated for to make it worth doing. You'll get better quality raiders if they introduce things that increase the desire for high-quality raiders to want to join the raids. People are going to follow the path of least resistance - so either you need just one path, or you need to acknowledge that the two paths aren't equal. You get officers willing to do the work if Blizzard provides multiple layers of support and the raiders have the desire to run the content. It's possible that Blizzard pushed the culture of raiding so far that 25s aren't long-term sustainable into the future of WOW, but they also hold the power to bring the teeter-totter of desirability back towards 25s if they want to. However, all their decisions favor helping 10s at the cost of hurting 25s.


I'm sorry Lissanna, but the entirety of the post you reference is spot on with his analysis, and yours misses some key elements. A 25man raid is run by a 25man guild, and his post suggest that it's not just the raid formation/strat elements that make it rough, but the fact the playerbase leaves much to be desired. By giving incentive to raid 25, you have more 'junk' as a guild leader to sift thru. I have LOTS of ideas to incent guilds to run 25man outside of quality of loot drops. Here's just one, if you're in a 25man raid group (non-LFR), when you enter the instance, your gold charms are increased so you get more personal rolls.

Path of least resistance theory is invalid because it's missing the motive of each person choosing, and we all play/raid for different reasons. The reality of 10s v. 25s is they both kill a boss, that deserves equal reward (which already favors 25s in loot per person). The rest of your post suggests that 25man raiding may be in decline, which it may be. So if you want more 25man raids, establish benefits for 25man GUILDS.

For example, achievements w/guild perks that can only be obtained via being in a 'guild run' 25man (guild meta w/personal level requirement that requires a maintenance feature so ppl don't get the benefit then abandon the raid group). I'm sure the creative juices of Blizzard could come up with some valuable non-loot-quality advantages, but here's a few: Increased valor point cap to 4000, increased charm rate, a return of Have Group, Will Travel, increased gold for dailies, and heck any other benefit we currently already have that will increase convenience and enhance gameplay for retention.
For the record, I'm the recruitment officer for my guild's 25-man raid. I still think that a package of quality of life changes (not just cauldrons, but they're the easiest example) for 25s would make it easier for people to step up into those leadership roles.


I dont think its so much the difficulty part of it that is making people not want to do it, there isn't any prestige with running a successful 25m guild like there used to be. Honestly separating the achievements would be a much more welcome solution than this stupid rng loot idea. Most 25m raiders just want to be able to see on their achievements that they killed heroic garajal on 25m. Whether or not its harder in either difficulty doesnt matter, right now with the shared achieves there is no way to differentiate a 25m raider from a 10m raider. Honestly I think that is all most of us want from this.


Why does it matter which raid group size you are? You just said there isn't much prestige anymore. If it doesn't matter which is harder, why would prestige have any bearing? You now what you did. Is displaying the difference really that meaningful?
Just testing the water:
  • What if 25man raids always dropped Thunderfoged items via token (not every drop, but at least 2 per boss)? - 10man would still drop TF'd items as well, but it's not guaranteed, except off end-wind bosses.
    This would be achieved through a token system: Normal and Heroic tokens exist; run to an Item Level Upgrade vendor, place your Helm of the Thunderforged Gear (Heroic) into the slot, upgrading costs a Heroic token. Normal mode items use normal mode tokens
  • Cauldrons - 50 charges. Costs 20 flasks t0 make (5 of each: Agi, Str, Int, Sta)
  • Crithto (blue poste) states: "...10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.
    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming."

    Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is sooo offbase and incorrect it's unfortunate you even stated this Crithto. The ONLY clear difference of "effort v. reward" is in the organization of a 25man raid. There are bosses that logistically are harder for both raid sizes. 25man already receives benefits for it's size with a higher loot per person drop rate, more battle rezzes per person for progression mistakes, easily met raid buffs and flexibilty of roles. 10man raids put more "effort" in per person than a 25man raid and have reduced role flexibility. I've raided both and my contributions are under much higher scrutiny in a 10man environment, especially in a heroic encounter. It's a pretty big insult to 10man raid groups to suggest "encounter effort" is less, and you shoud retract that portion of your statement.

    I do raid 10's because it IS more fun, for me. Much less 'loot drama', fewer cliques in guild, closer friendships, and I enjoy being relied on to play well. 25man just makes me another 'one of the guys', imo, and doesn't provide the same level of enjoyment. Not to flame this, but if you are going to represent such an inaccurate statement, at least use qualitative percentages or vagueness with words like "some" or "most" or "more likely to". Absolute statements are "almost" =P always inaccurate.


    Why are you trying to quantify what should be part of the "effort" equation? Organizing and running a successful 25 man Guild takes more effort than running a 10 man Guild. That's a fact.

    FYI your 10 man Guild is a clique on your server. This notion that 25's are filled with Cliques that 10's avoid is nonsense. Humans are humans and when you put them into a group situation they always fall into certain patterns.

    Having 10's match 25's in terms of rewards was one of the worst things this group of devs did to this game. Second only to Badges as a decision that made the game worse. I still don't get the rationale behind the decision since Blues have given us multiple reasons from iLevel bloat to burning people out to some outcry from the player base.

    In the end it's hurt Class homogenization and hurt the devs ability to make encounters because of the need to cater to a bastard Raid size that was never imagined when the game was developed.
    01/25/2013 08:12 AMPosted by Judson
    I dont think its so much the difficulty part of it that is making people not want to do it, there isn't any prestige with running a successful 25m guild like there used to be. Honestly separating the achievements would be a much more welcome solution than this stupid rng loot idea. Most 25m raiders just want to be able to see on their achievements that they killed heroic garajal on 25m. Whether or not its harder in either difficulty doesnt matter, right now with the shared achieves there is no way to differentiate a 25m raider from a 10m raider. Honestly I think that is all most of us want from this.


    Youd be wrong. And separating achievements is a terrible idea. Because then 25 mans would have access to 2X as many achievements.
    01/25/2013 07:39 AMPosted by Firestyle
    Without really dramatic changes to improve the ability for people to choose 25s, it is still likely that 25s won't exist in the next expansion. Even PTR and Beta testing favors 10-mans, with the 25-man Beta testing almost feeling like an after-thought once the 10s were done for MOP. The psychological impacts of that are that Blizzard cares more about testing the 10s than they do the 25s. Blizzard is favoring 10s in every aspect of the game and that hurts the 25s ability to exist as a raid size - because right now, your choice of PTR testing is 10s or nothing for all the PTR testing of 5.2 that has been done thus far. Supporting every aspect of 25s also includes making sure that 25s get equal opportunity to beta testing and PTR testing their boss size.


    The only thing that needs to change to make 25s better, is the quality and desire of raiders to do 25s. As an officer of a former 25 man guild that is now a 10 man guild, and more importantly the recruitment officer, the biggest challenge facing 25 man raiding is the culture of game and the mentality of the raiders.

    I don't care what Blizzard favors or not, but give me 30 or so raiders who will show up, know their class to an expert level, and research fights - and I'll run a 25 man guild.

    But the amount of !@#$%^- you need to be, to sift through the crap applications, failed trial recruits, 2 month raid-then-no-show raiders, and when-the-going-gets-tough-the-"tough"-don't-login raiders, is absurd.


    Absolutely. IMO, the biggest hurdle 25s face are related entirely to recruitment. i mean, recruitment is an awful task for 10s as well, but 25s... I get a headache thinking about it. Using loot as an incentive only encourages players who are motivated by the wrong things anyway.

    Incentives are an awful idea. Create better tools for recruiting.

    1) Change the official recruitment forums into a system like like classified ads, or something. Having definite search parameters would make things a million times easier.
    2) Let guilds put up guild application forms right on the official "forum", with privacy permissions guilds control.
    3) Make it easier to chat via Battletags. i.e., make the mobile app focus on battletag chat, not guild chat, and create a web based Battletag app so people can chat outside of game.

    I'm sure smarter people than I could brainstorm similar or better ideas, but bottom line being: Fix the recruiting tools. Incentives are always going to leave people dissatisfied, and actually makes things more complicated for raid leaders.
    Crithto (blue poste) states: "...10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.
    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming."

    Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is sooo offbase and incorrect it's unfortunate you even stated this Crithto. The ONLY clear difference of "effort v. reward" is in the organization of a 25man raid. There are bosses that logistically are harder for both raid sizes. 25man already receives benefits for it's size with a higher loot per person drop rate, more battle rezzes per person for progression mistakes, easily met raid buffs and flexibilty of roles. 10man raids put more "effort" in per person than a 25man raid and have reduced role flexibility. I've raided both and my contributions are under much higher scrutiny in a 10man environment, especially in a heroic encounter. It's a pretty big insult to 10man raid groups to suggest "encounter effort" is less, and you shoud retract that portion of your statement.

    I do raid 10's because it IS more fun, for me. Much less 'loot drama', fewer cliques in guild, closer friendships, and I enjoy being relied on to play well. 25man just makes me another 'one of the guys', imo, and doesn't provide the same level of enjoyment. Not to flame this, but if you are going to represent such an inaccurate statement, at least use qualitative percentages or vagueness with words like "some" or "most" or "more likely to". Absolute statements are "almost" =P always inaccurate.


    Why are you trying to quantify what should be part of the "effort" equation? Organizing and running a successful 25 man Guild takes more effort than running a 10 man Guild. That's a fact.

    FYI your 10 man Guild is a clique on your server. This notion that 25's are filled with Cliques that 10's avoid is nonsense. Humans are humans and when you put them into a group situation they always fall into certain patterns.

    Having 10's match 25's in terms of rewards was one of the worst things this group of devs did to this game. Second only to Badges as a decision that made the game worse. I still don't get the rationale behind the decision since Blues have given us multiple reasons from iLevel bloat to burning people out to some outcry from the player base.

    In the end it's hurt Class homogenization and hurt the devs ability to make encounters because of the need to cater to a bastard Raid size that was never imagined when the game was developed.


    I referenced that 25man organization was more challenging, but rewarding the participants is not the answer, reward the guild/leaders (see below). I was speaking from some past personal experience and regarding cliques, was not implying that happens everywhere. I guess by definition a guild is a bit of a clique, rephrased to sub-cliques :P

    There is a point on this topic where people are just going to disagree and we have to move on. Some people like 10's and some people like 25s and they're going to defend their preference. I do see your point on homogenization, esp regarding buffs etc. I'm going on the principle, you do the work, you get the reward. Individuals do more work for a 10man raid by % than they would in a 25man. If you read my other posts, there are ways to give incentive that do not inclue loot-quality rng changes.
    Why are you trying to quantify what should be part of the "effort" equation? Organizing and running a successful 25 man Guild takes more effort than running a 10 man Guild. That's a fact.

    FYI your 10 man Guild is a clique on your server. This notion that 25's are filled with Cliques that 10's avoid is nonsense. Humans are humans and when you put them into a group situation they always fall into certain patterns.

    Having 10's match 25's in terms of rewards was one of the worst things this group of devs did to this game. Second only to Badges as a decision that made the game worse. I still don't get the rationale behind the decision since Blues have given us multiple reasons from iLevel bloat to burning people out to some outcry from the player base.

    In the end it's hurt Class homogenization and hurt the devs ability to make encounters because of the need to cater to a bastard Raid size that was never imagined when the game was developed.


    People don't want cliques within cliques forming. Which is either doesn't happen within a 10 man raid, or is minimized.

    Having 10 mans and 25 mans share loot was the worst thing they did.......for 25 mans. Not for everyone else. If better loot is the only thing 25 mans had to offer to the world.........then they DO need to go away. Because then they aren't actually offering people anything they actually want.....the reasons people claim they love 25 mans.

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