10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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Directed at Ghostcrawler more than anything. The changes are really getting to be a bit on the old side. 25 Raiding will not improve on my server or in the guild no matter how much more loot you drop. We are actully getting more new players than watching the expierenced players get tired of the constant changes in the game. They stop playing and move to either GW2 or even some I have heard have moved to The D&D one that I played for two days and just hated. I have a guild member that gets in vent all the time and just discusses the changes to everybody there. The responses like any other are almost always horrible with a touch of cussing here and there. Even having said a couple of his friends got banned for comments on the fourms about the changes. Here is what bothers me more than anything.

1. Class Balance "Stop trying to balance the classes. In RL we don't balance classes of people. Just like in the military there are grunts and there are Rangers and even snipers. They are not equal thats a given. Example in game Paladins are strong mighty warriors of the light and as such train harder and should not be equal with the thief growing up in the streets. Each class should have a gift of something that makes them benificial to the group in some way"
2. Loot "I really dont care on this term except to say that if you asked me was cata loot system better. At the time I would have said no, but compared to this new system I'll take the old cata system anyday."
3. Taking out the Upgrade Vendor. "I love this little guy and think it should stay. It really does help get you that little extra when you need it."
4. The guild leveling was fun and should be put back in the game. It gave everybody in the guild a goal to reach together. It also was a sense of being part of something bigger than I gotta levle my toon today.ho humm here we go again. I was paying 500 gold a week to whomever made the most achievment points before reset. It cost me, but it was well worth it to get everybody working together.

In closing I would love to invite Ghostcrawler to join us on vent one night to listen to what the people have to say. I would never devulge to them as to who he really is. Create a random toon or bring one you have and I will say he is a new guild member and just let you listen in. As a manger I would love to be a fly on the wall and people not know it was me. Thanks Blizz for agreat game and no way Ghostcrawler do I mean any insult to you. You have done a fine job so far and the effort you put into this game is very welcome. You and all of Blizz have done a wonderfull job. For me WoW is like crack, I just can't get enough.... lol
01/25/2013 12:21 PMPosted by Malchome


First time I've heard that one. Sounds like a specious argument.


Actually it shows that players will take the path of least resistance to the greatest reward they can get with the least amount of effort. That is all it shows, that an how cliquish 10 mans are. Even 15 is at most 2 cliques but is still a better option than 10 and the minimum for a middle ground.


^^pure hogwash. The 'path of least resistance' theory is baloney. This is an optional hobby/game. The amount of effort to be in a progression heroic content raid group is very similar regardless of size and has nothing to do with 'least resistance'. Cliques are like-minded groups of people and are only detrimental when they demean others. The larger the sample size the more likely they exist. I referenced them earlier because of a specific situation. I didn't like seeing it, and it's less likely to happen in a smaller sample size like 10man.
01/25/2013 12:57 PMPosted by Whispoflife
I see a few issues with the whole 10 VS 25 thing. I have done both in heroic raid settings so I can speak from both sides on this.


Not quoting whole thing cause it's long but referring to all parts of it in my response.

First off, most 25man guilds carry a roster of 35-40 to be safe, ie much more than 10s do by %, and have much more issues with farm content as a result. Overall ilvl pans out about the same I'd say since we have better rng but more overall people to gear.

So you think that missing you best person one night doesn't go in to 25s too? 3 of my healers out one night, welp, no raids. That is the same as one healer missing for 10s, well 2.5 healers out but that wouldn't work for math well. I hate how 10s players use this kind of argument all the damn time and think it makes sense. 1 of your raiders is equal to 2.5 of mine. So 1 missing person for you means 2.5 for me.

The same thing goes in to deaths catagory. That is because bosses are scaled to account for this. That means that deaths in my version as just as important as your because it is expected to have 25 (or 10) players in said raid. While a death is 10% of your raid, it is accounted for in the encounter design!

Stop thinking that all 10man encounters are so much more difficult on a personal level, it's just annoying to keep hearing when it isn't true in the least. That part of raiding is exactly the same on both sides!
Used to be in a highly ranked 25 man too, what's your point?

I'm no longer in 25s because I didn't like to deal with recruiting people to a dead server and after we had a several month lull at the end of Cata we were left with a severe shortage of raiders. It's not fun and I play the game to have fun. Surprise. If they could allow a free transfer every month or (someone else mentioned this) a 30 day window where you can transfer back and get your money if it doesn't work out - that would help out immensely. But this little drop rate !@#$? Not helping at all.


You and the silhouette guy might attack my grammar and my vocabulary as much as you want, it still seems like many people here agree with me, and are bringing you multiple servers who are now dead since the 25man have gone close to extinction.


I think you're a moron, but I don't entirely disagree with you. I sympathize with 25 raiders, and I doubly sympathize with low pop realms (a situation Blizzard is mishandling so bad, I don't even have words). I just don't think destroying one format to fix another is the solution.

It doesn't take a genius to think of creative ways to address the actual problems, but to even start that process you need to at least acknowledge that you want to have an amicable solution. Really, reading most of this thread, most of the 25 raiders with actual progression rankings "get it", and see why the problems exist and want to find intelligent solutions to the actual problems, which are largely related to recruitment, logistics and organization. Most of them agree that throwing loot at the problem isn't going to change anything.

People like you, who can barely put words together into actual sentences and have awful rankings... are just being combative when it just isn't necessary. Maybe this is because you know 25s could be prominent again if Blizzard eliminated 10s (I agree this would "fix" 25s), but that's just a selfish objective and it is hard to take you seriously if you disregard the opinion and fun of a whole group of people that prefer a different play style from you.

It is invariably true that a lot of the popularity of 10s is due to the "path of least resistance" argument, but it is also wrong to think that accounts for all or most of it. I know because Silhouette was a 10 man guild during Wrath (where we just pugged 25s for gear) when 10s lacked all prestige. I'll always do 10s as long as I am raiding. But I have many close friends who love the epic flavor of 25s and I think that's great. It is unfortunate Blizzard doesn't do a few simple things to help like Fixing The Recruitment Forums, as just a start, but also addressing low pop realm issues, etc.
Well this is awesome, I cant wait for it. I think I will have to look for a 25M raiding guild.
01/25/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Telepathy
First off, most 25man guilds carry a roster of 35-40 to be safe, ie much more than 10s do by %, and have much more issues with farm content as a result.


So that's where all the players are. You carry 10-15 extra players. I didn't look up your armory but i don't think that is very common practice, short maybe of high level progression where they may want to stack for running world first etc. I would imagine people would get bored with that and find somewhere else to raid more regularly. We used to have 6 extra and had some challenges with people sitting, let alone 10-15.

So you think that missing you best person one night doesn't go in to 25s too? 3 of my healers out one night, welp, no raids. That is the same as one healer missing for 10s, well 2.5 healers out but that wouldn't work for math well. I hate how 10s players use this kind of argument all the damn time and think it makes sense. 1 of your raiders is equal to 2.5 of mine. So 1 missing person for you means 2.5 for me.


Point made, but when i need to replace a heroic geared healer to meet the boss needs, while it's only one person...virtually a nil chance to pug that level production. They're either saved or don't exist. We're in the same boat, i need quality and you need quantity. Based on your earlier characterization with up to 40 ppl, i'm suprised you have this issue to begin with.

Stop thinking that all 10man encounters are so much more difficult on a personal level, it's just annoying to keep hearing when it isn't true in the least. That part of raiding is exactly the same on both sides!


I think you missed the target here. 10man does require higher % quality per person, esp in heroic content. Content tuning doesn't account for someone being somewhere they aren't supposed to be, in the fire. It says you shouldn't be in that, period. As people are not perfect a 10 man raid has a 10% KB (killing blow) error allowance with heavy emphasis on rezzes being used for a tank or healer. A 25man raid has an KB of 12.5%, while small on a single boss for a single encounter, cumulatively allows for more overall goofs and can be more flexible to be used beyond tank/healer deaths, esp on farm content. Heroics are hard enough this tier that even with one brez allowance does not guarantee a one shot even with superior gear. Contrast that with a 25man losing a dps, they don't really even need to brez them once superior gearing. If this doesn't make sense to you, then you have not raided 10man in a heroic setting.
I think you're a moron, but I don't entirely disagree with you. I sympathize with 25 raiders, and I doubly sympathize with low pop realms (a situation Blizzard is mishandling so bad, I don't even have words). I just don't think destroying one format to fix another is the solution.

It doesn't take a genius to think of creative ways to address the actual problems, but to even start that process you need to at least acknowledge that you want to have an amicable solution. Really, reading most of this thread, most of the 25 raiders with actual progression rankings "get it", and see why the problems exist and want to find intelligent solutions to the actual problems, which are largely related to recruitment, logistics and organization. Most of them agree that throwing loot at the problem isn't going to change anything.

People like you, who can barely put words together into actual sentences and have awful rankings... are just being combative when it just isn't necessary. Maybe this is because you know 25s could be prominent again if Blizzard eliminated 10s (I agree this would "fix" 25s), but that's just a selfish objective and it is hard to take you seriously if you disregard the opinion and fun of a whole group of people that prefer a different play style from you.

It is invariably true that a lot of the popularity of 10s is due to the "path of least resistance" argument, but it is also wrong to think that accounts for all or most of it. I know because Silhouette was a 10 man guild during Wrath (where we just pugged 25s for gear) when 10s lacked all prestige. I'll always do 10s as long as I am raiding. But I have many close friends who love the epic flavor of 25s and I think that's great. It is unfortunate Blizzard doesn't do a few simple things to help like Fixing The Recruitment Forums, as just a start, but also addressing low pop realm issues, etc.


I absolutely love how you are trash talking my guild when you killed H Elegon and thats about it, probably 10man too. I dont even need to check to know its the case...

Oh whats that ? You have an alt in the server Illidan ? You are in absolutely no position to talk, and I feel very comfortable with my ranking.

I have quite a few friends in different guilds and for the top ranking, non of them take the 10man seriously, maybe they are just a little bit more diplomatic than I am with you, to not hurt your feelings to much.

Paragon absolutely wrecked everyone in the 10man race... Why ? BECAUSE YOUR MODE IS NOT SERIOUS, stop pretending, and get back into normal guilds.
Paragon absolutely wrecked everyone in the 10man race... Why ? BECAUSE YOUR MODE IS NOT SERIOUS, stop pretending, and get back into normal guilds.


Yeah, it has nothing to do with them being good. I have the same progression as you, including a world #12 Garalon kill before they changed enrage. As a 10man we have been decimated by change and life issues and now are having trouble locating a quality decenlty geared holy pally. We recently trialed one and he fell flat on his face and had 0 dispels on HcProtectors, even with coaching. We're off this week because our tanks had personal issues and aren't available. We would have considered finding a replacement, but you can look at this realm and realize the gearing and ability simply isn't available. Reality is heroic progression isn't normal progression and recruiting issues hurt both formats. Your myopic perspective is astounding
01/25/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Tectonicbomb
Stop thinking that all 10man encounters are so much more difficult on a personal level, it's just annoying to keep hearing when it isn't true in the least. That part of raiding is exactly the same on both sides!


I think you missed the target here. 10man does require higher % quality per person, esp in heroic content. Content tuning doesn't account for someone being somewhere they aren't supposed to be, in the fire. It says you shouldn't be in that, period. As people are not perfect a 10 man raid has a 10% KB (killing blow) error allowance with heavy emphasis on rezzes being used for a tank or healer. A 25man raid has an KB of 12.5%, while small on a single boss for a single encounter, cumulatively allows for more overall goofs and can be more flexible to be used beyond tank/healer deaths, esp on farm content. Heroics are hard enough this tier that even with one brez allowance does not guarantee a one shot even with superior gear. Contrast that with a 25man losing a dps, they don't really even need to brez them once superior gearing. If this doesn't make sense to you, then you have not raided 10man in a heroic setting.


I wish we could carry that many. That is merely the target number. We have like 18 or so right now. That's the problem. We need those kind of numbers to maintain a solid raiding environment which is next to impossible like you got at in your post. We need about a 25-30% bench to make things work well, but that means a ton of not raiding for a lot of people which is hard to work with.

PuGing people isn't viable in anything serious and the numbers I said were ideal numbers and not reality which makes it the problem.

I've only raided 10man setting recently, so I'd like to think I get the ideas around it. We have managed to kill some encounters on 25man as well allowing for decent amount of perspective. Take bladelord for example, someone dying in both versions means that odds are someone will die to unseen. The catch being that the odds of someone dying on 25s are much greater than 10s due to encounter design. Or stoneguard or Feng or anything. 9 out of the 16 current fights are spacing based fights which give the advantage to 10s purely on that. The other 7 fights are a toss up of which is harder than the other with some being obviously sided towards one or the other.

Losing a dps is the same in both forms. There is little to no dps check on anything so dps being dead for a little while isn't a huge issue, minus Garalon. A healer and/or tank in both forms is just as crappy as the other as both required them to do their jobs to keep things moving.

You hit it on the head as to why 25s is harder in your statement as well. Content tuning doesn't account for someone being somewhere they aren't supposed to be. Couldn't have said it better. 10 people being in the right place is easier than 25 people being in the right place. 25s allows for more goofs because of more people, not because the encounters require a higher quality person on 10s. For every one time someone stands in fire or blows up a wind bomb in your raid, it happens 2-3 times in mine. That means 2-3 times the wipes, 2-3 times the run backs/rebuffs/food/flasks/TIME.

Why are you even talking about farm content by the way? Who really cares once it's killed. Farm doesn't matter for who has an easier time on it. On top of that farm implies that there are little mistakes to the point where if rezes are used they are such a small portion of time it is almost negligible.
01/25/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Telepathy
First off, most 25man guilds carry a roster of 35-40 to be safe, ie much more than 10s do by %, and have much more issues with farm content as a result. Overall ilvl pans out about the same I'd say since we have better rng but more overall people to gear.

No. Most 25s do not carry 35-40. Most of my 25s we had 27-30 (sometimes past 30 at the start of the tier, but not for long). That is just silly and you're asking too much of the people that sit often. So the 'more overall people to gear' problem is a problem you created that shouldn't be there.
You hit it on the head as to why 25s is harder in your statement as well. Content tuning doesn't account for someone being somewhere they aren't supposed to be. Couldn't have said it better. 10 people being in the right place is easier than 25 people being in the right place. 25s allows for more goofs because of more people, not because the encounters require a higher quality person on 10s. For every one time someone stands in fire or blows up a wind bomb in your raid, it happens 2-3 times in mine. That means 2-3 times the wipes, 2-3 times the run backs/rebuffs/food/flasks/TIME.

Why are you even talking about farm content by the way? Who really cares once it's killed. Farm doesn't matter for who has an easier time on it. On top of that farm implies that there are little mistakes to the point where if rezes are used they are such a small portion of time it is almost negligible.


Two replies here. I completely agree that some content does have logistical issue based on spacing, so you have no debate there. A recent point that i made was... for fights where 10 man is harder, should we be given the enhanced loot buff? That's rhetorical, i don't expect that (reference 10man HcHagara both phases). The 25man elitists wouldn't respect that even if it were obviously harder. So who decides what is harder, what measurement is used? Again rhetorical. More people can be and many times is a benefit. Does that mean you have to organize better, sure. Does that mean it requires more planning, yes. But the execution lies on the other side of the computer for all players in both raid sizes.

HcGaralon is on farm, something goes amiss and we lose the dps soaker, twice. Wipe, run back/rebuff/food/repot etc. The validity of this is applicable since to get to HcAmbershaper or Queen requires us to kill those HC bosses on farm. This has not happened to us in HoF yet, but did happen in MV while we were progressing. SG, Feng, Garajal, and Kings all created some extra havoc getting back to HcKings. I get this isn't a huge deal, but it does apply in the larger picture of progression.
Go back to discussing ways to make leading raids and guilds less of a pain, which inherently is more of a benefit to 25 mans, but would help 10 mans out as well.
01/25/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Dysheki
First off, most 25man guilds carry a roster of 35-40 to be safe, ie much more than 10s do by %, and have much more issues with farm content as a result. Overall ilvl pans out about the same I'd say since we have better rng but more overall people to gear.

No. Most 25s do not carry 35-40. Most of my 25s we had 27-30 (sometimes past 30 at the start of the tier, but not for long). That is just silly and you're asking too much of the people that sit often. So the 'more overall people to gear' problem is a problem you created that shouldn't be there.


I should have used should carry rather than do, my mistake there. 33-37 is an average number of players that 25mans aim for. Some go high, some go low, but in the end its mid 30s is the target number. Back when I was doing hardcore raiding, I had a roster of 28. If any of those 28 missed a raid without posting or informing me of such, they were gone and replaced in a day. That same mentality doesn't work in a semi-hardcore guild though.
01/25/2013 05:20 AMPosted by Lissanna
For example, lowering the administrative burden on 25s could include things like bringing back one size of cauldrons - only the 25-man size. Let 10s have to deal with individual flasks, but have the 25-mans able to choose to provide the consumables at the guild-level if they so choose. Removing cauldrons from 25s continues to be a quality of life issue with everyone using different flasks now. It wouldn't impact 10s at all, but it impacts 25s, and would make it actually seem like Blizzard cared about supporting the ability of 25s to be successful. If Blizzard wants 25s to work, they need to improve the quality of life and ease of creating a large guild.

I agree with that. The loss of HGWT and Cauldrons has added about 10 minutes to each of our 10-man raids. I can only imagine that this overhead scales to about 25 minutes in a 25-man raid. I'm still scratching my head over that. I understand that HGWT was problematic but why not tweak it instead of doing away with it completely? For example, moving summoning stones into the instances and allowing the entire raid to be summoned at one time from stones would pretty much fix the issues with it and while maintaining the convenience for raiders.

01/25/2013 07:36 AMPosted by Lissanna
The fallacy of 25-mans being able to "carry dead weight" just isn't true. If one of the 25 people screw up a raid mechanic, it is just as likely to kill you as if someone screws up a mechanic on 10-man. You also have 25 points of failure for someone to make an 'oops' in 25-man. Things like the Ultraxion button require personal responsibility regardless of the raid size. The DPS requirements on 25s are just as harsh as the DPS requirements on 10s.

I have to disagree with you there. The lightning phase on Heroic Hagara was brutal in 10-man. We had to make 7 chains with 2 players in each chain. That's 14-players who had to position themselves in a 10-man raid. In other words, every single raid member had to be perfectly positioned when the phase started, and 2 pairs of those players had to quickly reposition themselves to cover the final lightning jumps. In contrast 25-man only had to form 3 chains of six players, meaning that 7 people could stand around and focus on healing the entire time. My guild was stuck on this phase until the nerfs reached a level where 4 pairs of people could take enough hits to manage the jumps by themselves, allowing our healers to stand in the middle and focus on healing the entire time. 25-mans didn't have that obstacle. I did both 25-man and 10-man raiding in Firelands and I promise you that the loss of one DPS was not nearly as significant in 25-man as it was in 10-man. If you lose 2 DPS on a given boss in current content you can pretty much expect the boss to enrage. On 25-man it made things iffy, but not impossible. So while I acknowledge that the "carry factor" is probably exagerated, I also think it has some basis in reality.

01/25/2013 12:51 PMPosted by Joynal
LFR has become the easy road to loot. They can just pop into LFR and get their chance at almost the exact same loot.

I don't think so. The LFR equivalent of my shield, for example, is 13 ilevels lower, has 72 less intellect, and 45 less spirit. How is that almost the exact same? This loot argument is a red herring.

The fact of the matter is that since Cataclysm I have effectively penalized my guild by helping friends from other guilds out with their 25-man runs. When I kill a boss in 25-man I've effectively myself from the pool of raiders for the week. I'm depriving my guildies of their shot at the achievement by participating in a 25-man. Back in pre-Cata days if my guild had 15 people who wanted to raid and another "partner" guild had fifteen people who wanted to raid we would merge into a single 25-man raid, benching 5 players across both guilds (i.e. 2.5 players per guild). The current guild achievement system penalizes that behavior and encourages both guilds to downgrade to a 10-man raid, benching 10 players in all (i.e. 10 players per guild). It's a lose-lose for everyone. I personally think that tweaking existing guild achievements to permit inter-guild participation or even adding new achievements with that goal in mind would make 25-man raids much more attractive.
Firstly, I do not think that they are trying to kill off one form of raiding over another. 10 mans are not the reason why 25 mans are dying.

Secondly, the loot changes proposed by Blizzard will hurt both 25 man raiding as well as 10s. Another form of RNG looting adds to logistic complexity of managing loot/player swaps that a raid leader already has to deal with constantly in 25 mans, since now with the added carrot of a rare TF item, players will refuse to swap out for farm fights for some raid time for people who are usually in the bench.
As I see it the problem of 25s slowly dying boils down to the difficulty in maintaining a roster because too few people want to raid 25s (for what ever reason).

Accepting that Blizzard as game designers do not want to have 25s die, it is necessary for something to be done so that more people want to raid 25s. Blizzard also obviously does not want 10s to die. Accepting those two items begs a few questions.

What other than better loot is going to make more people want to run 25s again?
--I can't think of anything myself.

At what point is better loot actually going too far and therefore killing 10s?
--I don't think this small of a change will kill 10s. It will probably make some people fill that they need to run 25s, but underneath it all, isn't that the point of the change. To make more people want to run 25s. (Yes, they will want to run 25s because the feel they need to, but again what other reason will achieve that same goal?)

Improvements that make it easier to manage 25s would certainly be helpful, but the long and short of it still boils down to needing more people who want to play that format.
I would like to read a dev watercooler blog on what Blizzard thinks are the main reason for the gradual demise of 25 man raiding.

They have clearly indicated that they feel that both forms of raiding should get equal visibility/importance in their development road map.

So, why did Cataclysm and now MoP see a sharp decline of 25 man raiding? Why did the greatest and best 25 man guild in the history of the game decide to go down to 10 man? I am pretty sure that Paragon switched to 10 not because of the relative difficulty between the two formats but more over the logistics of managing and maintaining a 25 man roster strong enough to compete for world firsts.
Two replies here. I completely agree that some content does have logistical issue based on spacing, so you have no debate there. A recent point that i made was... for fights where 10 man is harder, should we be given the enhanced loot buff? That's rhetorical, i don't expect that (reference 10man HcHagara both phases). The 25man elitists wouldn't respect that even if it were obviously harder. So who decides what is harder, what measurement is used? Again rhetorical. More people can be and many times is a benefit. Does that mean you have to organize better, sure. Does that mean it requires more planning, yes. But the execution lies on the other side of the computer for all players in both raid sizes.

HcGaralon is on farm, something goes amiss and we lose the dps soaker, twice. Wipe, run back/rebuff/food/repot etc. The validity of this is applicable since to get to HcAmbershaper or Queen requires us to kill those HC bosses on farm. This has not happened to us in HoF yet, but did happen in MV while we were progressing. SG, Feng, Garajal, and Kings all created some extra havoc getting back to HcKings. I get this isn't a huge deal, but it does apply in the larger picture of progression.


The reason it wouldn't work theoretically is that while some encounters or parts of encounters might be harder on 10s. The overall difficulty of the raid size is less thus balancing out with an easier 25man fight but harder logistics. So encounter difficulty + logistics difficulty = reward. Obviously there are some oversights that are just plain dumb, ie 3d sarth 10s, and shouldn't be used for anything to "prove" something, overall it's normally pretty balanced around the same number for respective difficulties.

Since all that people think about is encounter difficulty, most of the time, the scale that holds the logistics end is forgotten. While 10man encounters and 25man encounters are pretty close to each other, the logistics isn't close. Thus leading to where we are at today. People won't accept easier versions of encounters but demand easier logistics for the same reward.

While I understand where you are coming from with the farm content stuff, 25mans face different issues with doing farmed stuff in a timely fashion that more or less balance our the extra time in the way of mass substitutions and added annoyances that come with moving those people in and out while not being afk and such.

So I think we both suffer from farm issues, just different ones.
Two replies here. I completely agree that some content does have logistical issue based on spacing, so you have no debate there. A recent point that i made was... for fights where 10 man is harder, should we be given the enhanced loot buff? That's rhetorical, i don't expect that (reference 10man HcHagara both phases). The 25man elitists wouldn't respect that even if it were obviously harder. So who decides what is harder, what measurement is used? Again rhetorical. More people can be and many times is a benefit. Does that mean you have to organize better, sure. Does that mean it requires more planning, yes. But the execution lies on the other side of the computer for all players in both raid sizes.

HcGaralon is on farm, something goes amiss and we lose the dps soaker, twice. Wipe, run back/rebuff/food/repot etc. The validity of this is applicable since to get to HcAmbershaper or Queen requires us to kill those HC bosses on farm. This has not happened to us in HoF yet, but did happen in MV while we were progressing. SG, Feng, Garajal, and Kings all created some extra havoc getting back to HcKings. I get this isn't a huge deal, but it does apply in the larger picture of progression.


The reason it wouldn't work theoretically is that while some encounters or parts of encounters might be harder on 10s. The overall difficulty of the raid size is less thus balancing out with an easier 25man fight but harder logistics. So encounter difficulty + logistics difficulty = reward. Obviously there are some oversights that are just plain dumb, ie 3d sarth 10s, and shouldn't be used for anything to "prove" something, overall it's normally pretty balanced around the same number for respective difficulties.

Since all that people think about is encounter difficulty, most of the time, the scale that holds the logistics end is forgotten. While 10man encounters and 25man encounters are pretty close to each other, the logistics isn't close. Thus leading to where we are at today. People won't accept easier versions of encounters but demand easier logistics for the same reward.

While I understand where you are coming from with the farm content stuff, 25mans face different issues with doing farmed stuff in a timely fashion that more or less balance our the extra time in the way of mass substitutions and added annoyances that come with moving those people in and out while not being afk and such.

So I think we both suffer from farm issues, just different ones.


The logistic challenges of running a 25 man lies on the shoulders of a selected few -- aka the guild management, the officers, guild master, raid leader. This is usually 4-5 people in a raid of 25.

So, why should all 25 get the benefit of juiced up loot for the sacrifice and hard work of a select few? Is Blizzard indicating that the guild management master loot these items to themselves as reward for shouldering the burden of management nightmare they have created?

How does the loot changes alleviate the logistic challenges managed by the guild management?
01/25/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Ronduwil
I have to disagree with you there. The lightning phase on Heroic Hagara was brutal in 10-man. We had to make 7 chains with 2 players in each chain. That's 14-players who had to position themselves in a 10-man raid. In other words, every single raid member had to be perfectly positioned when the phase started, and 2 pairs of those players had to quickly reposition themselves to cover the final lightning jumps. In contrast 25-man only had to form 3 chains of six players, meaning that 7 people could stand around and focus on healing the entire time. My guild was stuck on this phase until the nerfs reached a level where 4 pairs of people could take enough hits to manage the jumps by themselves, allowing our healers to stand in the middle and focus on healing the entire time. 25-mans didn't have that obstacle.


What Hagara did you fight and why was mine different? In 10s, which we killed before 25s, on heroic, we had 4 people doing chains and 6 standing in the middle. One pair would go left, one would go right connecting as they went. 25man we had 4 chains of 4 people. This allowed the healers to stand and heal as well as a few back ups, no different than the case on 10s. Maybe our strat was super secret and amazing or something, but Hagara was never really an issue.

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