10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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Actually it shows that players will take the path of least resistance to the greatest reward they can get with the least amount of effort. That is all it shows, that an how cliquish 10 mans are. Even 15 is at most 2 cliques but is still a better option than 10 and the minimum for a middle ground.


^^pure hogwash. The 'path of least resistance' theory is baloney. This is an optional hobby/game. The amount of effort to be in a progression heroic content raid group is very similar regardless of size and has nothing to do with 'least resistance'. Cliques are like-minded groups of people and are only detrimental when they demean others. The larger the sample size the more likely they exist. I referenced them earlier because of a specific situation. I didn't like seeing it, and it's less likely to happen in a smaller sample size like 10man.


Er, no, it isn't baloney.

What do you think would happen if the 5 man dungeons currently in Mists were given equivalent gear to raids?

My bet is raiding would die almost instantly.


^^pure hogwash. The 'path of least resistance' theory is baloney. This is an optional hobby/game. The amount of effort to be in a progression heroic content raid group is very similar regardless of size and has nothing to do with 'least resistance'. Cliques are like-minded groups of people and are only detrimental when they demean others. The larger the sample size the more likely they exist. I referenced them earlier because of a specific situation. I didn't like seeing it, and it's less likely to happen in a smaller sample size like 10man.


Er, no, it isn't baloney.

What do you think would happen if the 5 man dungeons currently in Mists were given equivalent gear to raids?

My bet is raiding would die almost instantly.


Yes, sadly, raiding would die. Need the carrot.
I don't know, my guild would probably still raid for the hell of it. We do challenge modes and there's no gear.
Without a significant item level advantage in 25-mans, 10-mans will increasingly become the raid size of choice--clearly the developers recognize this fact but failed to act until 25-man heroic raiding (excluding the guilds who spend 4+ days a week) largely died. The recruiting pool for 25s is far too small at this point for a lot of guilds to sustain their rosters, and the monetary barrier to entry (usually a server transfer and/or faction change) is too high for 25-man heroic raiding.
The logistic challenges of running a 25 man lies on the shoulders of a selected few -- aka the guild management, the officers, guild master, raid leader. This is usually 4-5 people in a raid of 25.

So, why should all 25 get the benefit of juiced up loot for the sacrifice and hard work of a select few? Is Blizzard indicating that the guild management master loot these items to themselves as reward for shouldering the burden of management nightmare they have created?

How does the loot changes alleviate the logistic challenges managed by the guild management?


While the logistical challenges do fall on people like myself, it doesn't change anything if I get more stuff.

Purely logistical changes would make some more 25mans try to form, that is correct. It would also make some of us in bad shape hang in there a little longer. But what does that do to help us? 25man guilds need 25 people( obviously more but just for ease of arguing). While rewarding the 2-5 who do the extra work is nice, it doesn't do anything to bringing people there.

Unless I'm way off base, I don't see the game getting a lot of new "hardcore" raiders on a daily basis. This means that in order to get new blood to the 25man raiding scene, there has to be a reason to leave your current guild. I don't see people saying, "Oh man, the guild leader and officers are getting more rewards, this really makes me want to leave my guild and go join a completely new one." Obviously blown out of proportion there but the concept is the same, what do 25s have to offer players to get them there? Raid leaders and officers getting more stuff isn't that answer. It has to be something on a raider basis. The reward to the officers/RL/GM will come in the way of recruits and eager players coming to raids and in the end, that's all we really want.
I have to disagree with you there. The lightning phase on Heroic Hagara was brutal in 10-man. We had to make 7 chains with 2 players in each chain. That's 14-players who had to position themselves in a 10-man raid. In other words, every single raid member had to be perfectly positioned when the phase started, and 2 pairs of those players had to quickly reposition themselves to cover the final lightning jumps. In contrast 25-man only had to form 3 chains of six players, meaning that 7 people could stand around and focus on healing the entire time. My guild was stuck on this phase until the nerfs reached a level where 4 pairs of people could take enough hits to manage the jumps by themselves, allowing our healers to stand in the middle and focus on healing the entire time. 25-mans didn't have that obstacle. I did both 25-man and 10-man raiding in Firelands and I promise you that the loss of one DPS was not nearly as significant in 25-man as it was in 10-man. If you lose 2 DPS on a given boss in current content you can pretty much expect the boss to enrage. On 25-man it made things iffy, but not impossible. So while I acknowledge that the "carry factor" is probably exagerated, I also think it has some basis in reality.


I'm assuming you mean Heroic Hagara. You're wrong.

25 mans used 4 chains on Hagara, not 3. The general strategy was to make a cross out of the room. One chain got the initial orb chain to the middle and then it split off onto the other 3 parts of the cross.

10m orbs were much closer together. Now, 10m Hagara is generally accepted to have been more difficult on Heroic, but so what? Yorsahj and Ultraxion were more difficult on 25m Heroic. Ultraxion even had a death mechanic, so by your logic 10m Ultraxion should have been much harder because if 1 person screwed it up then it meant more.

Normal mode.. if you were having trouble with normal mode, I don't what to tell you.

The fact of the matter is that since Cataclysm I have effectively penalized my guild by helping friends from other guilds out with their 25-man runs. When I kill a boss in 25-man I've effectively myself from the pool of raiders for the week. I'm depriving my guildies of their shot at the achievement by participating in a 25-man. Back in pre-Cata days if my guild had 15 people who wanted to raid and another "partner" guild had fifteen people who wanted to raid we would merge into a single 25-man raid, benching 5 players across both guilds (i.e. 2.5 players per guild). The current guild achievement system penalizes that behavior and encourages both guilds to downgrade to a 10-man raid, benching 10 players in all (i.e. 10 players per guild). It's a lose-lose for everyone. I personally think that tweaking existing guild achievements to permit inter-guild participation or even adding new achievements with that goal in mind would make 25-man raids much more attractive.


Make an alt.
What Hagara did you fight and why was mine different? In 10s, which we killed before 25s, on heroic, we had 4 people doing chains and 6 standing in the middle. One pair would go left, one would go right connecting as they went. 25man we had 4 chains of 4 people. This allowed the healers to stand and heal as well as a few back ups, no different than the case on 10s. Maybe our strat was super secret and amazing or something, but Hagara was never really an issue.


25man you could preposition in lightning phase, connect and literally be done in a gcd or 2. 10man you had to run the charges, more time= more chance for a mistake to be made. Frost phase, stack heals range in middle, use def cd's, no range movement and able to focus crystals without moving. Faster phase again, less chance for mistakes. Kill on 25 was much easier.
01/25/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Tectonicbomb
What Hagara did you fight and why was mine different? In 10s, which we killed before 25s, on heroic, we had 4 people doing chains and 6 standing in the middle. One pair would go left, one would go right connecting as they went. 25man we had 4 chains of 4 people. This allowed the healers to stand and heal as well as a few back ups, no different than the case on 10s. Maybe our strat was super secret and amazing or something, but Hagara was never really an issue.


25man you could preposition in lightning phase, connect and literally be done in a gcd or 2. 10man you had to run the charges, more time= more chance for a mistake to be made. Frost phase, stack heals range in middle, use def cd's, no range movement and able to focus crystals without moving. Faster phase again, less chance for mistakes. Kill on 25 was much easier.


Oh please. Stop QQ-ing about Hagara. Tried Spine H in 25? Makes 10H spine looks like "Lambs Tales of Shakespeare".

Also, this is not a discussion abt relative difficulties of two formats. This thread is more about how to resurrect one format (which is already on life support) without hurting or killing off the other.

Raid leaders and officers getting more stuff isn't that answer. It has to be something on a raider basis. The reward to the officers/RL/GM will come in the way of recruits and eager players coming to raids and in the end, that's all we really want.


My poor little 25 man guild is also on life support. We used to be a guild who killed M'uru prenerf. And now I have just managed to kill Heroic Elegon in 25 mans with 18 raiders, 2 applicants and 5 PuGs. And, here's the punchline -- we are the numero uno 25 man guild in my server. And here's another punchline-- wowprogress ranks our server 65th of 250 odd servers in US of A.

What we need are way more than this stupid loot incentive that's like a bandaid to fix a gushing wound.

We need better tools for recruitment cross servers; encouragement in the form of monetary discounts to people looking to transfer servers in bulks (e.g. transferring to and from servers with 5-10 alts should come with a discount package); need abilities, tools to recruit people from toehr servers in a more efficient manner than using external websites like wowlemmings.
Purely logistical changes would make some more 25mans try to form, that is correct. It would also make some of us in bad shape hang in there a little longer. But what does that do to help us? 25man guilds need 25 people( obviously more but just for ease of arguing). While rewarding the 2-5 who do the extra work is nice, it doesn't do anything to bringing people there.

Unless I'm way off base, I don't see the game getting a lot of new "hardcore" raiders on a daily basis. This means that in order to get new blood to the 25man raiding scene, there has to be a reason to leave your current guild. I don't see people saying, "Oh man, the guild leader and officers are getting more rewards, this really makes me want to leave my guild and go join a completely new one." Obviously blown out of proportion there but the concept is the same, what do 25s have to offer players to get them there? Raid leaders and officers getting more stuff isn't that answer. It has to be something on a raider basis. The reward to the officers/RL/GM will come in the way of recruits and eager players coming to raids and in the end, that's all we really want.


This is a valid point, but it does exist for all raid groups. I'm for 25man receiving some add'l 'perks' outside of loot. Blizzard needs to add some incentive to a 25man raiding guild attached to raiding. Create a perk where members need exalted with guild and have an an ongoing achvievement monitor for 25man raid attempts in a guild run to maintain the benefits like HGWT, increased valor cap, valor cap bonuses for account alts, food buffs that persist thru death, flask duration bonuses, a specially designed mount active while achievement monitor is current. Heck, make all that lvl 60 cool pvp gear be xmogable as a benefit. The key is the monitor must remain current to get them, so you can not be inactive and maintain the perks, preventing abuse. Obviously not ALL of those ideas in one, but some would provide some nice appeal and get more interest into the community of raiders.
... this is not a discussion abt relative difficulties of two formats. This thread is more about how to resurrect one format (which is already on life support) without hurting or killing off the other.


Maybe you could read the thread title before trying to discredit a post. This is a loot discusion, specificially one that potentially increases the ilvl of gear for both formats but favoring one. Previous to that post, I had said there are fights where the 'logistics' of 10man are harder. And should 10man receive a loot bonus on those fights? Of course not, that's silly and not feasible. It's silly to say absolutely 25man encounters are harder and thus the player should be rewarded better. A mage doing 100k dps in a 10man is no different than one doing the same in a 25man, assuming play quality and assignments are the same...reward should be too.

25man raiding doesn't need to be resurrected by giving better overall gear. Problem is too many elitists want to have a badge saying they're better and demean those who chose something different for enjoyment, yet defeat the same boss. This is the way it's been since loot was equalized. If ppl quit because they're unhappy over that, good riddance. The fewer egomaniacs the better. There's room for everyone's achvievements and there are other methods to make 25man raiding/guilds more popular.
01/25/2013 01:49 PMPosted by Narph
Paragon absolutely wrecked everyone


You should have stopped here. Paragon obliterated everyone in the progression race, both 10 and 25.
What we need are way more than this stupid loot incentive that's like a bandaid to fix a gushing wound.

We need better tools for recruitment cross servers; encouragement in the form of monetary discounts to people looking to transfer servers in bulks (e.g. transferring to and from servers with 5-10 alts should come with a discount package); need abilities, tools to recruit people from toehr servers in a more efficient manner than using external websites like wowlemmings.


Yay, we agree. The loot incentive is stupid and doesn't reach the issue you have, so it's not needed. And we can agree with part 2 of your comment. Now we're getting somewhere, maybe Blizz is watching. Toss in the ideas for non-loot perks i've been mentioning and you have a decent place to start enhancing recruitment. And amazingly without making 10man raiding inferior to 25man. Win/win.
01/25/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Paragon absolutely wrecked everyone


You should have stopped here. Paragon obliterated everyone in the progression race, both 10 and 25.


Minus the last tier.

^^pure hogwash. The 'path of least resistance' theory is baloney. This is an optional hobby/game. The amount of effort to be in a progression heroic content raid group is very similar regardless of size and has nothing to do with 'least resistance'. Cliques are like-minded groups of people and are only detrimental when they demean others. The larger the sample size the more likely they exist. I referenced them earlier because of a specific situation. I didn't like seeing it, and it's less likely to happen in a smaller sample size like 10man.


Er, no, it isn't baloney.

What do you think would happen if the 5 man dungeons currently in Mists were given equivalent gear to raids?

My bet is raiding would die almost instantly.


Sorry, my fault. I think my point got muddled there. "A means to an end" applies. "Path of least resistance" doesn't. This is a game or hobby for some. But they can choose a completely different one if this one isn't enjoyable. It's a means to an end, they play for enjoyment on some level.

Assuming you're implying that it's easier to get 10 ppl together to raid, there is no arguement there. However Hc progression doesn't really allow for being easy. Blizzard has noted heroics are tuned for those looking for the a challenge and are meant for the more hardcore raiding experience. They don't go easy just because there are 10 people instead of 25. So again, it's a means to an end. I didn't chose my guild because it would be easier to raid, I chose it because the player quality was better and I wanted the chance to reach server first hc bosses. If i wanted a path of least resistance, I would not have left the previous guild(s). I was already in them, no change necessary, no resistance. The only 25man on my server is recruiting all the time, most people could get in there. I'll acknowledge this could apply more in normal/casual mode raiding guilds, but not so much for Hc progression.
Hi Blizzard, I know you aren't dumb. What is the point of this token gesture?
Sorry, my fault. I think my point got muddled there. "A means to an end" applies. "Path of least resistance" doesn't. This is a game or hobby for some. But they can choose a completely different one if this one isn't enjoyable. It's a means to an end, they play for enjoyment on some level.


Path of least resistance definitely applies, assuming equal rewards.

Assuming you're implying that it's easier to get 10 ppl together to raid, there is no arguement there. However Hc progression doesn't really allow for being easy. Blizzard has noted heroics are tuned for those looking for the a challenge and are meant for the more hardcore raiding experience. They don't go easy just because there are 10 people instead of 25. So again, it's a means to an end. I didn't chose my guild because it would be easier to raid, I chose it because the player quality was better and I wanted the chance to reach server first hc bosses. If i wanted a path of least resistance, I would not have left the previous guild(s). I was already in them, no change necessary, no resistance. The only 25man on my server is recruiting all the time, most people could get in there. I'll acknowledge this could apply more in normal/casual mode raiding guilds, but not so much for Hc progression.


Normal 25s are dying more than hardcore 25s. For now. Normals need the boost. If that happens, then hardcore will continue just fine. If the foundation is gone, then eventually hardcore will follow, and sooner rather than later.

You state the problem outright in your own words. "The only 25 man on my server."
In theory it sounds good but you're too vague. If the drop rate is anything like LFR this is an awful idea. You will just tick off loyal players trying to chase down the thunder forged 5% drop item. While you're at it jack up LFR way so ppl can level alts. Also, put an algorithm in where the same gear slot is filled 5 times over. Nothing would annoy a mage more than when the infrequent and sparse drops he gets are all hand items which he crafted 496's for the day before or bought in the AH for peanuts because they are so common.
The logistic challenges of running a 25 man lies on the shoulders of a selected few -- aka the guild management, the officers, guild master, raid leader. This is usually 4-5 people in a raid of 25.

So, why should all 25 get the benefit of juiced up loot for the sacrifice and hard work of a select few? Is Blizzard indicating that the guild management master loot these items to themselves as reward for shouldering the burden of management nightmare they have created?

How does the loot changes alleviate the logistic challenges managed by the guild management?


Because if you award a select few, you have drama over who those select few are and therefor more work for those select few.

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