10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
Prev 1 59 60 61 84 Next
I've said it a few times already, but I'll say it again because the entire purposes of adding incentive is to actually grab the player's attention. In this case, you want the average player to say "Huh, those new 25man raiding perks seem a bit over-the-top." If the "solution" is too small, nothing will change. Tackle this issue as you tackle Monk PvP buffs -- Go big, make changes after testing the waters. Equality between 10man and 25man should not exist. The "equality" that 10man fanatics are suggesting exist does not exist. You cannot say "Oh but this is equal in every way except that it is much harder to sustain a 25man guild/roster compared to a 10man guild/roster." You cannot say there is equality after you stated there are logistical inequalities. You need to "balance the scale" and give 25man something to overcome the logistical issues of running a 25man raid. In addition, you want to make players feel they'll get better rewards from 25man raiding (this does not translate to better loot (higher ilvl).

Why does the solution need to be 'over-the-top'?
The simple psychology is that players don't care unless there's something in it for themselves. It's not about making 25man the only raiding format, you need to make the preferred raiding format (don't mix up "preferred" and "only" -- I swear some people [mostly 10man fanatics -- most, not all] cannot grasp this concept.) You need to make the individual player want to raid 25man content. 25man rosters cannot live without three major points:

  • 1 : Strong leadership. Without strong leadership, no raid will last very long, this is especially true in 25man raiding because "going out to find replacements" will consist of looking for 1-10 players. 10man leadership might need to find 1-3 players. Oh...these players need to be geared, have acceptable experience. It's not easy, but leadership is more important with more people.

  • 2 : Strict attendance policy or a large bench (5-10 players) (or both). This effects both 25man and 10man raiding. Logistically speaking, it's harder to get 25 geared and experienced players on the same schedule week when compared to 10 players. Unarguable. Imagine running a bench that can branch off a be its own 10man PUG. For some guilds, that's what it takes to kill bosses...or even just pull the first boss. Attendance and Recruitment are extremely important to both raid sizes, but 25man need more players due to potential for unforeseen absences among core members.

  • 3 : Strong incentives with immediate results, something(s) 10man cannot offer, and make 10man raiders jealous (because you're trying to win over weekly PUG'ers as well). The fact is that players will not go to 25man raiding unless it's better/worth it over 10man raiding. Make players want to come to 25man raids. Offering rewards than 10man cannot offer will be helpful towards this cause.

  • How will 25man raiding need to change in order to become a preferred format?
    The difficulty of running a 25man raid needs to change for the better. Offer more Quality of Life improvements, such as 50-charge cauldrons, making the Summoning Stones at raid instances summon all players (warlocks can still be the solo-summoners -- especially if someone needs to Reforge, you can use a warlock stone to bring them back). You need to make the role of the officers and raid leader easier, but it's very difficult to do so. You need to nitpick the details and look for potential changes, above were some suggestions.

    What incentives should be given to the individual player in a 25man raid?
    What do players want? Simplicity. They want the easiest route. As of right now, there are no secondary options to collection Lesser Charms, they are forced into dailies. Valor Point acquisition is the same between 10man and 25man. Realistically, loot is the same between 10man and 25man (yes, 25man has useless loot just like 10man) and off-specc loot is near useless (I have a great resto set I never use for raiding! Our tanks have a great DPS set they never use. Our healers have DPS sets they rarely use). Loot is really good as an incentive, but it's not about making 10man feel worthless, it's about making 25man feel worth it. Better [higher ilvl] loot might be the better way, but it's not the right way. Listing some options to which 25man raids may be rewarding players:

    I need to go into detail on this next point, so here we go:
    Thunderforged Items, in their current implementation, are not a strong incentive. RNG on your RNG is not good. Very slightly better RNG on your RNG is not good either. A better way to implement this system is to reuse the Firelands Crystalized Firestone, but in an "Item Upgrade" manner.

    There will be two types of tokens:
    1. Seal of the Thunderking - Upgrades a Normal-mode version of a non-tier item to a Thunderforged (Normal) version.
    2. Seal of the Thunderking (Heroic) - Upgrades a Heroic-mode version of a non-tier item to a Thunderforged (Heroic) version.

    How to upgrade items into Thunderforged items:
    After acquiring a "Seal of the Thunderking" players may bring this token and their upgradable loot to a "Thunderforger" NPC. Much like the Item Upgrade system, players will increase the power of their upgradable item. Heroic-mode tokens only work on heroic-mode loot, normal-mode tokens only work on normal-mode loot.

    (Normal) 10man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Low droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(8%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(100%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss


    (Heroic) 10man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Low droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(8%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (1 max)(100%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss


    (Normal) 25man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Guaranteed droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 1 minimum)(100%, 16%, 6%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 2 minimum)(100%, 100%, 6%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss.


    (Heroic) 25man "Thunderforged Token":
    • Guaranteed droprate on non-Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 1 minimum)(100%, 16%, 6%)
    • Guaranteed droprate on Endwing boss encounters. (3 max, 2 minimum)(100%, 100%, 6%)
    • Does not use a spot in the "lootbag" on any boss.


    25man raiding could award these on a boss kill:

  • Lesser Charms of Good Fortune. ~ Currently there is no secondary option to acquire this currency.
  • Additional Valor Points. Awards 60 Valor for a Normal-mode kill. Awards 80 Valor for a Heroic-mode kill.
  • Thunderforged Token idea (above) - Provides an equal way to acquire Thunderforged items. 25man will acquire these faster, but they also have more players.

  • Understand that a 25man raid is the harder route. You need a better computer. You need 15 additional players to not screw up the mechanics. You need 15 additional players to perform their roles as well as everyone else. You need 15 other people to actually show up on time. You need 15 additional people to come to raid prepared with Flasks, Potions, and Feasts (unless provided). You need the proper strategy for your group (leadership). You need everyone to understand what everyone else is doing (assignments/responsibilities).

    Just because more 25man guilds have killed a specific boss doesn't mean 25man is easier. It could mean the encounter is harder on 10man. It could mean those 25man guilds are more skilled than the 10man guilds, especially when you consider the shear amount of 10man progression guilds. The posts in this thread have not been about the very best players in the world. It's about getting the majority of the population back into considering a 25man raid. After all, the majority are players who do not raid. Offering greater rewards for their time, a different route to acquire desirable items, and a new experience is the only way to bring players back into the 25man raiding scene. Making 25man Normals provide a better experience than 10man (not an easier experience per se) will revitalize 25man raiding.

    A playstyle cannot exist on passion alone. You need others to share your passion to run in a 25man raid. Eventually, the passionate players will stop playing, and that's the end of 25man raiding. You need to get people to enjoy 25man raiding again. It needs to provide a better player experience than 10man raiding. "Better" is subjective, yes, but steps need to be taken to ensure 25man provide a better experience. Without drastic improvements for both the individual and the leader, 25man non-hardcore raiding will be completely dead by the end of this expansion.

    If it would take that much to get players to return to 25man raiding, then acknowledge players are just in it for the rewards and not because they enjoy 25man raiding itself, and ask Blizzard to abandon 25man as a format because not enough players really care about it.

    Do I honestly believe not enough players care about it? No. I think the number is less than most of the 25man community believes but not enough that it should be abandoned as a format.

    The problem is a lack of players in general. When there aren't enough players on a server interested in 25man raiding to sustain groups, they devolve into 10man. There are many factors to consider: schedule to play, skill, personality. A server the size of Illidan probably is home to about 5000 active raiders, if not more. My server? We'd be hard pressed to come up with 400.

    What are the chances a 25man guild is going to be able to find 30-35 players who are available to log on for the exact same 6-10 hours a week and have personalities that mesh well enough to create a stable, productive raid guild when they only have a pool of about 250 players to draw from (our realm has a 2:1 Alliance to Horde ratio)?
    We dont want easier. Thats what the 10 mans are for.

    10 mans already caused a major nerf in raiding already. We dont want another.


    Okay, here's part of the thing though.

    Look back to the mechanics and complexity of BC raids, namely tiers 5 and 6. Those raids from a mechanics perspective were EASY by today's mechanics standards. There really wasn't that much going on in those fights other than Vashe, Kael, Mags, and HKM. And all 4 of those fights are still to date some of the most nerfed and overhauled fights in the game from their original versions.

    Starting around Ulduar, the name of the game changed from tight rotation and execution based raiding where gear UGs made a significant difference to mechanics to primarily stay out of the bad and movement. Cata was too much of both, and went more back to the BC style of development in DS. (A raid a lot of people hated.)

    What I'm getting at is that by today's standards of what HC raiders expect, the "Glory days" of BC raiding would be considered to be laughably easy. BUT the big difference then was that we were all still really learning the game, theory crafting was very new, and the game was only 2 years old.

    Cata and MoP raiding are problematic, because they both focus on two elements of difficulty rather than one like the original versions of the game did; mechanics complexity and core rotation/gearing. It's beginning to be evident that many of the discussions of easy/hard are relative to these two. Myself, I find mechanics complexity to be far more difficult that rotation/gearing.

    Just like we saw in DS, most raids didn't get past Spine even with the massive nerf, not because they didn't have the gear, but because of the mechanics complexity. Which no matter what changes you do, can not be nerfed to the point of some players being successful. Just like Kael, Vashe, Mags, and HKM back in the day.

    Neither 10 or 25 man will matter in this aspect, nor does the insane idea the devs have to "fix" the issue. Ultimately, they will have to pick HOW they want the difficulty to be, and that's the root of the issue.
    01/26/2013 10:04 AMPosted by Dysheki
    That's why I stopped raiding 25s: my raids were basically in that form and I got sick of it.


    And this is the whole "25m is bleeding out problem". Once it became so much easier for you to just grab some of your buds and smash ten man content there is now no reason for you to even consider applying to another 25m guild that may be better and have less derps. Right now at the rate casual 25 mans are declining the top uber progressive guilds are going to feel the pain soon. We are already seeing signs of it with the exodus and vodka merger
    If it would take that much to get players to return to 25man raiding, then acknowledge players are just in it for the rewards and not because they enjoy 25man raiding itself, and ask Blizzard to abandon 25man as a format because not enough players really care about it.

    Do I honestly believe not enough players care about it? No. I think the number is less than most of the 25man community believes but not enough that it should be abandoned as a format.

    The problem is a lack of players in general. When there aren't enough players on a server interested in 25man raiding to sustain groups, they devolve into 10man. There are many factors to consider: schedule to play, skill, personality. A server the size of Illidan probably is home to about 5000 active raiders, if not more. My server? We'd be hard pressed to come up with 400.

    What are the chances a 25man guild is going to be able to find 30-35 players who are available to log on for the exact same 6-10 hours a week and have personalities that mesh well enough to create a stable, productive raid guild when they only have a pool of about 250 players to draw from (our realm has a 2:1 Alliance to Horde ratio)?


    I think everyone agrees, minus the top 5 population servers, that merges are almost needed at this point to help out raiding. I don't think Blizzard will ever do it cause of the money they make with xfers though.

    Without merges, it will take that much. While I agree that 10s are suffering as well due to LFR, it's not to the extreme 25s are which you know. To get people to 25s, you have to make them want to actually raid in the first place, then you have to make them want to pick the more annoying format. It will be hard enough getting people to raid 10s let alone 25s.

    I do think thunderforged will help bring some players from pure LFR to 10s, just not all the way to 25s. Even then it won't be many.

    Merge servers is my number one for fixing raiding issues. If that isn't an option, it needs to be big.
    01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
    We're still going through your feedback and really do appreciate the things you've shared. Please keep it coming.


    Here is my feedback.

    STOP WITH THE RNG LOOT CRAP.
    Hey guys

    I have been raiding since the good old 40m Molten Core days, back when 40 people had to fight over 6 pieces of loot and in my opinion added a lot of value to having a epic item or two.

    With this change to introducing thunder-forged items it will reintroduce that aspect of the game again for me knowing that i can keep raiding content that may have lost the amount of interest i once had for it and keep me going because i will be searching for the thunder-forged items.

    But with issues of today's wow culture and assorted stuff everything implemented into the game effects the raid groups structure. This i can see of being a bit of a issue with DKP guilds as a lot of people will try and horde for these items, this starting arguments and what not. (we have all been there)

    Also you find the issue of 25 and 10 man player balance as well as the balance of the few people that think LFR should not even exist! lol but to put it out there WHAT IF!

    You could only get Thunder-forged from a the use of a Elder Charm of Good Fortune? that would fix the 25 and 10 player problem. Keeping that whole *@$#! YEAH!~* Feeling when you win an item in the game.
    Cyous, have you led both 10 and 25 player raids/guilds?
    01/26/2013 12:25 PMPosted by Cyous
    You need a better computer.

    I understand what you're trying to say, but don't use hyperbole to get there.
    01/26/2013 03:24 PMPosted by Ickman
    You could only get Thunder-forged from a the use of a Elder Charm of Good Fortune? that would fix the 25 and 10 player problem. Keeping that whole *@$#! YEAH!~* Feeling when you win an item in the game.


    Huh? That would do nothing, except reinforce the feeling that some players have of dailies and Charms being required.
    This is one thing that is starting to annoy me, have only been at this for a few months and can say that if the RNG doesn't change on the extra roll this game may take a roll into the trash. Seriously, if their are 5 items available to drop for my specific toon and the bag of loot is the sixth item the loot should have a 1 in 6 chance of coming up, not a 95 percent chance. If not then it technically is not a "roll" is is just more RNG BS that seems to be a the worst way of coming up with getting gear or not. Have the BALLS to say its a RNG chance not a "roll". Nothing more disappointing than doing dailies for 6 more "rolls" to come away with an extra 180 gold.

    Sorry this was a reply to a post on page one, not as general post...
    01/26/2013 03:53 PMPosted by Hyjinx
    You could only get Thunder-forged from a the use of a Elder Charm of Good Fortune? that would fix the 25 and 10 player problem. Keeping that whole *@$#! YEAH!~* Feeling when you win an item in the game.


    Huh? That would do nothing, except reinforce the feeling that some players have of dailies and Charms being required.


    Blizzard should just mail us Raiding gear and the individual should do nothing to try and earn it?

    Same ethic behind banquet verse 300stat food the better player will have farmed his 300stat food giving him that vital extra stats he needs. How is this any different? just because the stats are on a item.

    Work to earn it
    01/26/2013 03:43 PMPosted by Zosima
    Cyous, have you led both 10 and 25 player raids/guilds?

    Yes/No (10/25). I understand the work the goes into them. I helped run a 10man group back in early Cata, and stepped up into a 25man guild in the same tier (T11). I have ran a 10man group on my alt for the length of T12 and T13 on a low population server while doing a more hardcore progression in T12 and T13 on my main. Specifically with the 10man group, we struggled to keep the same 10 players week after week, we had about 6 solid members, 2-3 casually late/absent raiders, and we'd have to PUG 1 to 3 players from trade chat (which typically took 10-45min). If the PUGs were good, we'd try to invite them back for next week. In 25man guilds, it was more of the same issues I had with the 10man groups; though, significantly more of these same issues. (Point of Reference: Alt group was not on Illidan [tbh, I haven't touched raiding on my alts in MOP])

    Coming from a hardcore progression-oriented 25man guild, I can see the effort that our RL and officers put in just so we function. Our RL uses different resources for managing the guild in different aspects, whether it be DKP, attendance, or who need loot off which bosses. A lot of work goes into cycling trials and bench so everyone stays happy. We all want the best for the guild, and everyone appreciates the work the select few put in to make it possible. I also see this in those posters who claim to leading 25man groups. All the little nuances of 10man are exacerbated in a 25man setting.

    01/26/2013 01:56 PMPosted by Joynal
    If it would take that much to get players to return to 25man raiding, then acknowledge players are just in it for the rewards and not because they enjoy 25man raiding itself, and ask Blizzard to abandon 25man as a format because not enough players really care about it.

    It's really not "that much." You're improving the system from both 10man and 25man. You give 25man more benefits to counterbalance the outset of the logistical difficulties of running a 25man. The only way to attract players away from Subject_A is to make Subject_B more interesting to the players.

    The problem is a lack of players in general. When there aren't enough players on a server interested in 25man raiding to sustain groups, they devolve into 10man. There are many factors to consider: schedule to play, skill, personality. A server the size of Illidan probably is home to about 5000 active raiders, if not more. My server? We'd be hard pressed to come up with 400.

    What are the chances a 25man guild is going to be able to find 30-35 players who are available to log on for the exact same 6-10 hours a week and have personalities that mesh well enough to create a stable, productive raid guild when they only have a pool of about 250 players to draw from (our realm has a 2:1 Alliance to Horde ratio)?

    The lack of players is a major issue as well. Regardless of the server I'm currently on, it's not like I'm incapable of acknowledging, understanding, and about to suggest solutions to the issues brought upon by a non-Illidan population. There has not been a 25man PUG on Illidan since Firelands (and probably before this time too, but I wasn't on the server at an earlier time). With that said, merging servers will be a strong argument, CRZ will work if everything about these CRZ'd servers are shared (merging without an actual merger). This includes the AH and Major City phasing.

    A healthy server population allows big servers to flourish. But Illidan, and others like it, are more of a "Black Hole" instead of a flourishing server. Players who still want to play come to big servers because their current server is dead/dieing. It doesn't really help these "Black Hole" servers, but it certainly makes those smaller servers suffer a little bit more.
    This should maybe be factored off of average playing time though, some do not have the time to doo all the dailies and the raids plus help the guild out. Some clearly do, and if they want to play that much fine, but if you cant, where is the fun in doing the min of dailies and the raids then come up with nothing because of RNG bs? I know this last week I walked away from 4 raids with nothing but loot and handing in 4 coins. You have to keep it interesting for everyone because if you lose one that could start a domino...
    Hey, thanks for making loot administration more of a nightmare in 5.2. That's about all you've accomplished with this change.

    You guys were very close to an ideal model at the end of Wrath, which was the last time all of my casual raiding friends partook in that content. Back then 10s were the perfect size for a group of friends and perfectly tuned as a more laid back, fun setting. But hey, congratulations on making 'challenging' 10 man content and eradicating a buttload of 25 man guilds in the process.
    Hey, thanks for making loot administration more of a nightmare in 5.2. That's about all you've accomplished with this change.

    You guys were very close to an ideal model at the end of Wrath, which was the last time all of my casual raiding friends partook in that content. Back then 10s were the perfect size for a group of friends and perfectly tuned as a more laid back, fun setting. But hey, congratulations on making 'challenging' 10 man content and eradicating a buttload of 25 man guilds in the process.

    What he said! Well said Vulgrym Well said!
    01/26/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Ickman


    Huh? That would do nothing, except reinforce the feeling that some players have of dailies and Charms being required.


    Blizzard should just mail us Raiding gear and the individual should do nothing to try and earn it?

    Same ethic behind banquet verse 300stat food the better player will have farmed his 300stat food giving him that vital extra stats he needs. How is this any different? just because the stats are on a item.

    Work to earn it


    Um. Doing some dailies for a Charm isn't "working to earn" anything.
    I really, really despise the idea of giving 25-man raiders more perks. Why the heck should the people in a 25m raid be given more rewards when (generally) nobody beyond the GM/officers do the "actual work" of upkeeping the guild? It makes no sense to me.

    10m raiders put in the same amount of work for kills, believe it or not. In fact, those of us in progression-oriented 10m guilds arguably work harder for specific kills than 25's. My raid's composition made heroic WotE extremely tricky, so we opted to use a spark soaking tank strategy. Which required me to hardcore collect feral gear, and spec Guardian (I hadn't bear tanked since ICC), to get our kill. I still tank it every week. I was an officer in a 25 man progression guild for 2 years and we never had to resort to oddball tactics like this.

    Hardcore 25m raiders call 10's easy when they run them, because their players are 5+ ilevel above most progression 10's, and they can cherry pick the perfect raid composition for the fights they do. 10's don't have that luxury. You guys like to claim that recruitment is easier for us as well, but when 1-2 players suck, that's 10-20% of your raid failing miserably. If you lose one of your two healers and have already ressed, it's generally a wipe.

    Honestly I'm not here to say 10's are better than 25's or vice versa. I have heavily dabbled in both. I have been a raider and a leader in both. Both sizes have pros and cons, but when it comes to leading these guilds, you're still herding cats.

    The smaller raid size of 10's doesn't make cat herding any easier, as you're often also presented with performance issues where one weak player (even DPS-wise) can completely screw your heroic boss attempts. Recruiting ONE person sounds super easy, right? If that single player is a weak link, then the entire raid suffers from it.

    It's blatantly obvious that the real flaw with 25's falls on the leadership, and also the current WoW population. People want to raid 25's but they don't want to lead them. The people who decide to lead them have no idea what they're doing, and the guild inevitably fails due to drama, loot, or leadership in general.

    When I GM'ed, recruited, and led raids for my old guilds (10 and 25) for 5 years total, it was basically a full time job. I began burning out and wanted to "retire" back to normal raider status again, as the stress was unbearable. WoW's newer players are not willing to pick up the reigns when people like me step down -- they all want it handed to them on a silver platter without any work involved, hence LFR and other casual-friendly elements in the game now.

    The oldschool EQ players who led us through Vanilla and BC are gone or relaxing as normal raiders. The casual WoW crowd has no idea how to fill those shoes. 25's would still be abundant and healthy if more players were willing to lead them, and lead them well. Blizzard can't fix poor leaders.
    The reason large scale raiding is slowly dieing is due to increasing complexity combined with the games organising tools stagnating. Don't get me wrong I like things to be difficult but we need the tools (organising) to help us.

    Back in the day, raids weren't that complicated, there were no fancy tools - you had to predict aggro, learn what emotes meant etc. I remember we'd schedule a BWL run for a Saturday and as long as we had 30+ we'd go and do very well. That's a flex of 25% of the team and still able to raid.

    Nowadays, with the introduction over time of mods that assist us, Blizzard has built in more complexity, phases, etc and tuned the raids much tighter. You cant do 10/20 raids with a 25% flex in the team today (unless well advanced) which puts a strict requirement on consistent attendance and hence creates a constant struggle.

    It terms of feeling and enjoyment raiding BWL with 30-40 ppl was so much fun. Ppl would have a few drinks, we'd tell jokes, laugh at silly mistakes, intentionally skylark - it was just great entertainment and we still got it done.

    Today's raiding seem so serious and lfr cant even come close because it's anonymous.

    We may be too far down the road because unfortunately more work has been put into tools to separate us (lfd, lfr, dailies, pokeman, etc) than tools to bring us together (Guild management, Raiding tools, group quests, etc).

    I just wish you'd stuck to a vision all along as the game seems like one big ball of bandaids to me after 8 years.
    I really, really despise the idea of giving 25-man raiders more perks. Why the heck should the people in a 25m raid be given more rewards when (generally) nobody beyond the GM/officers do the "actual work" of upkeeping the guild? It makes no sense to me.

    10m raiders put in the same amount of work for kills, believe it or not. In fact, those of us in progression-oriented 10m guilds arguably work harder for specific kills than 25's........


    The leaders of 25 man Guilds need the perks for their raid team so they can attract enough players. For them the reward is running a successful 25 man progression Guild. So I have to disagree with the notion that it would do anything to just reward the players running 25's.

    Everything else you said is spot on though IMO. Vanilla was created by EQ Raiders and the Raid scene through Ulduar was run by EQ Raiders. Most of those players have moved on for numerous reasons. A big one is the philosophical change to Raiding that started in ToC. The choke point for Progression has always been the lack of proficient leadership. Without those EQ/Vanilla players there are few players left with the will or skill to lead large Raids.

    The Wrath model was far from perfect since we lost real 10 man content like Kara (one of the most loved Raids ever) but the design allowed for a lot of fun. Classes could be balanced for 25 man groups which meant less homogenization and 10's were a way to blow off steam with friends on off nights. It kept some of the benefits of 40 man Raids (like being able to bring along friends of suspect skill) because you could run with them on the weekends.

    I've been an avid forum reader since Vanilla and I have to say I never felt there was a general call for normalized rewards between the formats. So I don't know why Blizzard made that call in Cata. Killing 25's was just one of the things wrong with that decision. It also made PVE balance more like PVP since the requirements for tuning 33 specs to work with 10 Raid slots is much tighter and offers less chance for creativity. In other words it made the game more bland.

    Join the Conversation

    Return to Forum