10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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No, everything should be equal regardless. You complaining about people complaining about loot proves you love it just as much as everyone else.

Look, it's not about the actual pieces of gear itself. It's the idea that the drops should be equal because the difficulty would hopefully be relatively equal (in the same way all dps are relatively equal, within a certain margin of error). If 10s got better gear than 25s you would have a hissy fit.

This argument is stupid.
No, everything should be equal regardless. You complaining about people complaining about loot proves you love it just as much as everyone else.

Look, it's not about the actual pieces of gear itself. It's the idea that the drops should be equal because the difficulty would hopefully be relatively equal (in the same way all dps are relatively equal, within a certain margin of error). If 10s got better gear than 25s you would have a hissy fit.

This argument is stupid.


No actually, if 25's having worse loot than 10 man's had a clear option of balancing the advantages 10 mans had, and giving us better chances of running and less then stress then I would happily take that as a solution. Except 10 has the advantage on this playing field and your continual insistence that they are somehow "equal" is both naive and ignorant. They have never been "equal" and we have several years of human behaviour in this game to show that they have never been equal.

10 and 25 mann being equal was a pipe dream. A noble dream held aloft in the clouds that Blizzard has been reaching for for the last few years and failing miserably at it. The fact that we are having 60 pages of arguments, STILL over these formats years after they were implemented shows that this is never going to happen. You can continue to try to make them equal till your ears bleed with the arguments and complaints on the forums, or until 25 mans die off entirely, but at no stage in almost 3 years of playing this game has Blizzard been able to successfully make them "equal".

So please tell me exactly why you are continuing to advocate for a system that is clearly not "equal" and as a consequence makes people stop raiding? Aren't you being ridiculously selfish?
01/26/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Virtutis
No actually, if 25's having worse loot than 10 man's had a clear option of balancing the advantages 10 mans had, and giving us better chances of running and less then stress then I would happily take that as a solution.

You can say that all you want, but if 10s had better gear 25s would be dead tomorrow.
01/26/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Dysheki
No actually, if 25's having worse loot than 10 man's had a clear option of balancing the advantages 10 mans had, and giving us better chances of running and less then stress then I would happily take that as a solution.

You can say that all you want, but if 10s had better gear 25s would be dead tomorrow.


Some would be for sure. The top progression types would and a lot of the middle ground semi-hardcore guilds would. Given that is a huge portion of the 25man raiding population now, but there would be some, like me, who wouldn't raid anything but 25s seriously.
01/26/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Dysheki
No actually, if 25's having worse loot than 10 man's had a clear option of balancing the advantages 10 mans had, and giving us better chances of running and less then stress then I would happily take that as a solution.

You can say that all you want, but if 10s had better gear 25s would be dead tomorrow.


And I can tell by that statement that you didn't even bother to read what I had said. What is the point in responding to me if you can't even be !@#$ed to read what I am saying?

Yes of course they will be dead. What I said was:

No actually, if 25's having worse loot than 10 man's had a clear option of balancing the advantages 10 mans had, and giving us better chances of running and less then stress then I would happily take that as a solution.


10's however don't have the same issue. If 10's suddenly had less item level gear than 25's, 10's would not be going anywhere. You would still have hundreds of thousands of players playing 10 man's regardless. And this fact alone is the very proof that 10's have an advantage, and always have. People such as you do not like to admit that because to do so would suggest that 25 man's should have something to make them more "equal" - but that is a "no go " solution for you, so you simply pretend it doesn't exist.
01/26/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Dysheki
No actually, if 25's having worse loot than 10 man's had a clear option of balancing the advantages 10 mans had, and giving us better chances of running and less then stress then I would happily take that as a solution.

You can say that all you want, but if 10s had better gear 25s would be dead tomorrow.


Possibly only cause every top progression guild quit, and then thats the end of WoW. We wouldn't break down into 10s, we'd quit cause if that happened then there is no more point to play a game catering 'heroics' to casuals. 10s will always be the inferior size, no top 25m guild cares about 10mans progression.


You can say that all you want, but if 10s had better gear 25s would be dead tomorrow.


Possibly only cause every top progression guild quit, and then thats the end of WoW. We wouldn't break down into 10s, we'd quit cause if that happened then there is no more point to play a game catering 'heroics' to casuals. 10s will always be the inferior size, no top 25m guild cares about 10mans progression.

You do realize most people that play this game don't really raid that much, right? So saying that's the end of WoW is a bit silly.

I give up, you guys are all crybabies. You don't realize the precarious situation Blizzard is in: They don't want 25s to go away, but they can't do it without slighting 10s which is a huge portion of their raiding base. You only see what you want.


Possibly only cause every top progression guild quit, and then thats the end of WoW. We wouldn't break down into 10s, we'd quit cause if that happened then there is no more point to play a game catering 'heroics' to casuals. 10s will always be the inferior size, no top 25m guild cares about 10mans progression.

You do realize most people that play this game don't really raid that much, right? So saying that's the end of WoW is a bit silly.


Really? Cause SWTOR did so well with it's awesome leveling, which it was thats not sarchasm, but had no endgame, which is tantamount to if Blizzard alieanated the top hardcore progression guilds. They'd be gone and then you'd have a couple million casuals maybe but the sub rate would take a massive drop. What do people watch on streams besides pvp, they watch top progression raiding, not any !@#$ty casual raids.
01/26/2013 11:34 PMPosted by Dysheki
Look, it's not about the actual pieces of gear itself. It's the idea that the drops should be equal because the difficulty would hopefully be relatively equal (in the same way all dps are relatively equal, within a certain margin of error). If 10s got better gear than 25s you would have a hissy fit.

You do realize that it's possible to have different level of loot and still have the instance be difficult for the loot it's designed for right?

All I have to do is point at Ulduar. Or Sarth 3d.

For people running 10-strict at the time, those were legitimately difficult and had a clear progression curve. Claiming otherwise is silly.

Now that I think about it they don't even have to item level lock achievements. Just lock them to a 10m loot tag. Done.

It requires a ton more work on Blizzard's part though, which is why they haven't gone back to that format.


Possibly only cause every top progression guild quit, and then thats the end of WoW. We wouldn't break down into 10s, we'd quit cause if that happened then there is no more point to play a game catering 'heroics' to casuals. 10s will always be the inferior size, no top 25m guild cares about 10mans progression.

You do realize most people that play this game don't really raid that much, right? So saying that's the end of WoW is a bit silly.

I give up, you guys are all crybabies. You don't realize the precarious situation Blizzard is in: They don't want 25s to go away, but they can't do it without slighting 10s which is a huge portion of their raiding base. You only see what you want.


Of course I know the position Blizzard is in. You do realise though that this "huge proportion" that play 10 mans now only has happened because making this change in the first place !@#$ed over so many players yes? The best numbers we have for players who raided end game normal 25 OR 10 in WotLK, was between 1 and 1.5 million using just wowprogress numbers no counting anywhere they do not count and depending on how many were strict 10s.

Our current numbers, of normal and heroic raiders in 10 OR 25 man is currently sitting at 445,000 players. So even using the most conservative numbers, wowprogress has recorded a net loss of 55% of the raiding population in normal and heroic raids. Where did they go? They certainly didn't go 10 man. Maybe some of them went to LFR instead.

The point is, this change hurt the game more than it helped those people who wanted equal 10's. Now the majority of raiders are 10, simply because everyone else %^-*ed off.

But you are correct - Blizzard is in a position now where they are quite possibly damned if they do or damned if they don't. What Blizzard needs to do is actually have some gumption and make a decision about how they want the end game to run. The current system does not work . This "change" for Thunderforged is already showing that it will make matters worse and it is doing so because it is still a half assed "oo I do not want to make anyone angry so I will hide in a corner and hope" kind of decision.

Make a bloody decision and let us make ours, not string us along with constant "we are looking into its" which, incidentally as a 25 man raider, I have been getting now shoved at me for over 2 years. So yes, we are pissed and yes we have a bone to pick. This bone of contention may well be strange to those 10 man raiders that do not have any experience with it.

Unless you have been in our position over the last few years you cannot possibly know how many times we have been slapped in the face over our decision to raid this size and just how difficult Blizzard has made it for us to do so. So do not presume to judge us simply because we are not happy.

Also, TLDR and to make a post on topic again, this Thunderforged idea will not help 25 man's so please stop portraying it as a feature that has anything to do with 10 and 25 man.

You do realize most people that play this game don't really raid that much, right? So saying that's the end of WoW is a bit silly.

I give up, you guys are all crybabies. You don't realize the precarious situation Blizzard is in: They don't want 25s to go away, but they can't do it without slighting 10s which is a huge portion of their raiding base. You only see what you want.


Of course I know the position Blizzard is in. You do realise though that this "huge proportion" that play 10 mans now only has happened because making this change in the first place !@#$ed over so many players yes? The best numbers we have for players who raided end game normal 25 OR 10 in WotLK, was between 1 and 1.5 million using just wowprogress numbers no counting anywhere they do not count and depending on how many were strict 10s.

Our current numbers, of normal and heroic raiders in 10 OR 25 man is currently sitting at 445,000 players. So even using the most conservative numbers, wowprogress has recorded a net loss of 55% of the raiding population in normal and heroic raids. Where did they go? They certainly didn't go 10 man. Maybe some of them went to LFR instead.

The point is, this change hurt the game more than it helped those people who wanted equal 10's. Now the majority of raiders are 10, simply because everyone else %^-*ed off.

But you are correct - Blizzard is in a position now where they are quite possibly damned if they do or damned if they don't. What Blizzard needs to do is actually have some gumption and make a decision about how they want the end game to run. The current system does not work . This "change" for Thunderforged is already showing that it will make matters worse and it is doing so because it is still a half assed "oo I do not want to make anyone angry so I will hide in a corner and hope" kind of decision.

Make a bloody decision and let us make ours, not string us along with constant "we are looking into its" which, incidentally as a 25 man raider, I have been getting now shoved at me for over 2 years. So yes, we are pissed and yes we have a bone to pick. This bone of contention may well be strange to those 10 man raiders that do not have any experience with it.

Unless you have been in our position over the last few years you cannot possibly know how many times we have been slapped in the face over our decision to raid this size and just how difficult Blizzard has made it for us to do so. So do not presume to judge us simply because we are not happy.

Also, TLDR and to make a post on topic again, this Thunderforged idea will not help 25 man's so please stop portraying it as a feature that has anything to do with 10 and 25 man.


Good post. Perhaps the gumption you speak of would be to just go with a sole intermediary raid size, say 15 man, and let the chips fall where they may. You are correct, Blizzard created this problem, but they are stuck in a tight spot now. Not sure why they did this, the raid situatuon in BC was fine, no one was asking to get rid of 25s back then, but somehow Blizz heard we liked Kara, which meant we all wanted 10 mans. And as you pointed out, way more people raided back then.
01/27/2013 12:30 AMPosted by Gyiatso
but somehow Blizz heard we liked Kara, which meant we all wanted 10 mans. And as you pointed out, way more people raided back then.

Actually you can blame this on ZA, not Kara.
01/26/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Virtutis
They have never been "equal" and we have several years of human behaviour in this game to show that they have never been equal.


T11 was ridiculously overtuned for 10's vs 25's, and 25's still floundered because just filling dead space with bodies no longer worked in normal mode like it did in Wrath. Claiming "but 10's are easy mode and that's why they're more popular!" in the face of direct evidence to the contrary causes me to question your objectivity.

01/26/2013 11:55 PMPosted by Primalshock
10s will always be the inferior size, no top 25m guild cares about 10mans progression.


I don't particularly care about the world progression race either, normally, but I couldn't help but smile when Paragon beat the hell out of the 25's this tier. Was good times hearing all the self-contradictory arguments about why it's different when 25's win vs the first time a 10m run beat them.
01/27/2013 12:30 AMPosted by Gyiatso
no one was asking to get rid of 25s back then


No one is asking to get rid of them now. We just want the solution to be realistic, to actually address what is hurting 25m the most (i.e. logistics and management), and to not be a punishment on 10's just because they happen to be a genuinely enjoyable experience for a good sized chunk of the raiding community.
01/27/2013 02:08 AMPosted by Bomdanil
no one was asking to get rid of 25s back then


No one is asking to get rid of them now. We just want the solution to be realistic, to actually address what is hurting 25m the most (i.e. logistics and management), and to not be a punishment on 10's just because they happen to be a genuinely enjoyable experience for a good sized chunk of the raiding community.


The only realistic solution is to bring in the players base. The logistics and management part are a lot easier to deal with when you have a guild progressing well though whatever content you might be doing.

As many of us have said over and over, while the problem is at the logistics level, a fix to logistics isn't going to save the format.

Genuinely enjoyable experience for a good size chunk... good one. Quit throwing that crap in there to try and make it sound like big bad 25s are hurting little poor 10s.
01/27/2013 02:42 AMPosted by Telepathy
Genuinely enjoyable experience for a good size chunk... good one.


Are you going to deny that a noteworthy portion of the playerbase likes 10m raiding? Because that would be the only way you could consider that statement to be due that sort of response.
01/27/2013 02:08 AMPosted by Bomdanil
no one was asking to get rid of 25s back then


No one is asking to get rid of them now. We just want the solution to be realistic, to actually address what is hurting 25m the most (i.e. logistics and management), and to not be a punishment on 10's just because they happen to be a genuinely enjoyable experience for a good sized chunk of the raiding community.


A tiered difficulty system like Wrath with 10 Normal at the lowest level doesn't stop anyone from playing 10's. It's the same argument in reverse and it always comes down to gear and epeen. The thing is we know the Tiered system worked fine since Wrath is proof.

There's nothing but good reasons why the model works better than what we have now....

a) Normal 10's should be the bridge format for players trying to move from LFR to organized Raiding. Right now the difficulty switch is too steep and keeps the majority of the WOW player base in the LFR ghetto. We all agree that 10's are easier for your average player to organize. With a shallower difficulty jump from LFR having Wrath style 10 Normals would create an easier transition to Raiding.

b) The 2 sizes can never be balanced for every fight. It's impossible. The need to try puts artificial limitations on encounter design. With Wrath style Raiding Blizzard can go back to tuning the encounters for 25 Heroic and scaling down from there.

c) Class Homogenization can DIAF. Class abilities can be balanced around the more logical 25 man format. More logical because only a fool would think it can work to take 33 specs and squeeze them into 10 Raid slots fairly without blurring class distinction too much. No more worries about Buff normalization and other game killing design necessities.

All the above make the game better. The only thing the I can say about the present system is it's convenient. It's also one of the things making the game rot.
01/27/2013 03:05 AMPosted by Indyana
A tiered difficulty system like Wrath with 10 Normal at the lowest level doesn't stop anyone from playing 10's.


It does stop us from having access to current tier progression content. How would you like it if Blizzard up and decided that 25m's were only allowed to be LFR difficulty for normal and heroic modes? I can pretty well guarantee you'd be pretty peeved if that happened to you, so don't ask that it happen to us.
01/27/2013 02:00 AMPosted by Bomdanil
I don't particularly care about the world progression race either, normally, but I couldn't help but smile when Paragon beat the hell out of the 25's this tier.

Especially when you consider they used multiple 25man raids to gear up their core 10. Truly an astonishing test of skill and dedication. Hence why no decent 25man raiding guilds care about 10man. Additionally, hence why no decent 10man raiding guilds care about 25man raiding.

It does stop us from having access to current tier progression content. How would you like it if Blizzard up and decided that 25m's were only allowed to be LFR difficulty for normal and heroic modes? I can pretty well guarantee you'd be pretty peeved if that happened to you, so don't ask that it happen to us.

Aside from the small detail that your 10man content wouldn't be tuned for the higher ilvl of 25man content, you'd be right, it would suck. However, that's not the case now. It wasn't the case in TBC. It wasn't the case in WOTLK. It won't be the case if a change goes through. The 10man version, in the idea discussed, will be tuned for an appriopriate ilvl and non-ideal raid comp. You're twisting a proven idea that worked for 25man into some evil entity hellbent on the destruction of 10man raiding.

Progression isn't the very highest instance available. Take ICC. Progression was split between 10man and 25man. 10man had their progression, 25man had their progression. That seemed to work very well. In Cata and MOP, you're not "racing" 25 vs 10. Since boss encounters vary in difficulty from encounter to encounter, what progression raider worth anything would compare a 25man guild and a 10man guild? None will. You always compare yourself among other guilds of your appropriate raid size.
01/27/2013 03:10 AMPosted by Bomdanil
A tiered difficulty system like Wrath with 10 Normal at the lowest level doesn't stop anyone from playing 10's.


It does stop us from having access to current tier progression content. How would you like it if Blizzard up and decided that 25m's were only allowed to be LFR difficulty for normal and heroic modes? I can pretty well guarantee you'd be pretty peeved if that happened to you, so don't ask that it happen to us.


You need to stop defining progression in such a narrow way. I would say what you have now is an illusion anyway since we all know that the encounters can never truly be balanced. As long as some fights favor one size over another your "progression" is a sham.

There are plenty of ways to separate the formats so the progression for strict 10 man Guilds isn't stomped on by 25 man players if that's your concern. As others have posted having separate iLevel locked Achievements is one way. Any equipped piece of gear above a certain iLevel on any Raid member when the Boss dies nullifies the achievement.

The thing is you can't seem to make an argument about how 10's make the game better outside of convenience they offer to most players. They may help the bottom line but it's at the expense of the soul of the game.

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