Rogues on the PTR are flat out broken

Arenas
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01/24/2013 02:09 PMPosted by Stunshine
First off, 9/10 of the complaints here, are things that rogues could do already, the fact that it annoys you, or you dont like it, is more so indicated by the rogues ability to be more successful at it/afterwards, in that after the stun he could actually kill you.


This is a logical fallacy. Just because you had something before doesn't mean you get to keep it (see: Totem nerf of 5.2). Do you understand how that works?

It's because the kit they had when those things were introduced isn't the same as it is now. You're entitled to nothing but change, and on the PTR, a lot needs to happen, on live, not much needs to happen.

01/24/2013 02:09 PMPosted by Stunshine
Like I said, 9/10 posts look like they just want to keep rogues where they are now, which is not a threat.


Both of these are opinions. The first being a generalization, the second being a straight up opinion. Rogues seem more than fine atm, a FEW other classes are overtuned. Overtuning two new classes doesn't fix this.

Why? Blink breaks you out of everything every 15 seconds. Disengage can apply a root with a talent.

Even demonic circle removes snares and roots.


All three of the abilities you made similarities with have literally no meaning. Why? Because every single example you listed are ranged classes with completely different kits, furthermore, you're comparing a gap closer to a gap opener.

I can't compare shadowstep to disengage or even charge in that regard, because in a vacuum where the classes only exist with these abilities is a reality that doesn't matter when considering balancing the game right now.

Rogues work properly in the sense that gap closers should have a higher cooldown than gap makers (aka every ability you listed), it's not a problem that they have poor mobility. They have less mobility than classes with overpowered mobility (warriors and ferals).

DON'T COMPARE YOURSELF TO SOMETHING OP!
I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere, I just now looked at this thread... but...

PTR forums are this way-----------> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1181024/
01/24/2013 02:16 PMPosted by Crookston
Growl is okay. There's no pure damage mitigation, just armor and stamina increase. It's nothing to complain about, but it sure pales in comparison to stampeding shout or dash imo. Think it would have made more sense to give rogue a big bleed.


Disagreed.

Rogue Growl is probably the most balanced forms of symbiosis.

The Rogue gets a physical defense cooldown that slightly covers one of their weaknesses, while the Feral gets Redirect (yeah idk about this one actually), Restoration gets Evasion (helps slightly with weakness to hard swaps), and Balance gets Cloak of Shadows (helps slightly with easily being tunneled).

Not to mention you're completely underrating Rogue Growl, it's one of the best things you could give a teammate. My rogue partner loves it.
Growl is okay. There's no pure damage mitigation, just armor and stamina increase. It's nothing to complain about, but it sure pales in comparison to stampeding shout or dash imo. Think it would have made more sense to give rogue a big bleed.


Disagreed.

Rogue Growl is probably the most balanced forms of symbiosis.

The Rogue gets a physical defense cooldown that slightly covers one of their weaknesses, while the Feral gets Redirect (yeah idk about this one actually), Restoration gets Evasion (helps slightly with weakness to hard swaps), and Balance gets Cloak of Shadows (helps slightly with easily being tunneled).

Not to mention you're completely underrating Rogue Growl, it's one of the best things you could give a teammate. My rogue partner loves it.


I don't hate it. I'm just not in love with it, though admittedly I haven't played with druid much where rogue was the best symbiosis candidate. Agree to disagree I guess.

Redirect does seem sort of !@#$ty for feral though, I agree.
Very true. Dancing With The Stars is a really good comp simply due to ability to choose who you wanna symbio for each comp.

Coming from someone who plays stealth cleave, our Shaman usually needs stealth moreso than our Rogue needs growl, and I prefer Wolves to Redirect any day.
01/24/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Conspiracy
Rogues work properly in the sense that gap closers should have a higher cooldown than gap makers (aka every ability you listed), it's not a problem that they have poor mobility. They have less mobility than classes with overpowered mobility (warriors and ferals).


By all means, tell me what I should compare abilities to.

Deathgrip? Which with their bonus awards two grips before cooldown? That's baseline. Their ranged slow?

A paladins Hand of Freedom removes all slows with the only cost being a cooldown? That's baseline.

A warrior's charge that's baseline? Their heroic leap that's baseline?

What is a rogue supposed to comapre themselves to? Because apparently we can't get buffs without someone comparing our damage to another class's lack of strong defense.
Compare yourself in categories rather than abilities.

Enh is considered the most balanced melee by people, and strong by most.

How does your mobility compare to theirs?

How does your damage compare?

How does your utility compare?

How does your CC compare?

edit: to answer your question, you shouldn't compare abilities at all. Rets have a better execute than DKs because their kit allows them to have a better execute, not because Blizzard is stupid and just wants to give random iterations of executes.
It's not 100% pressure. But its too much pressure to possess in every case scenario (excluding when they're out of LoS, out of range, or CCed) for a melee class to have.
Everything is in relatives, you can't go looking at a single class/spec since you're only looking at yourself relative to their skills and abilities. If you say "look at enhancement" in comparing melee you're disregarding the fact that specs are based around different strengths and weaknesses. Just who says enhancement is the baseline for mobility, damage, utility and mitigation? It's fluid, you can't simply pick a spec and say "yeah, this is balanced based on all these critera" because relative to others you could say the mobility is terrible, you could say the utility is exceptional compared to a DK but not to a ret paladin.

This is a whole package. What makes it strong? What makes it weak? Why does this weakness impact your gameplay? For what reason do you consider this to be "underpowered" in the relative sense. We were talking about facts yesterday and here's the thing, we're dealing in relative facts, not objective ones - it's a fact that you can get blown up in a shockwave. That isn't conjecture, that isn't up for debate, that's a fact - if you want to go adding other elements like "if you pop dispersion you won't get exploded" and that's fine, it's another element added to the equation. It doesn't change the fact that you're going to be blown up in a shockwave stun if you don't pop Dispersion. Obviously I used this as an theoretical example and not a literal one. Even if it could be applied as a literal one.

I know you're using strong logic conspiracy but you're getting lost in logic and its processes.


its not bad but its not great or even optimal, rogues's growl is also akin to another shield wall.


I didn't say enhance was great. Dude called it one of the very worst dps specs and he's wrong.

Growl is okay. There's no pure damage mitigation, just armor and stamina increase. It's nothing to complain about, but it sure pales in comparison to stampeding shout or dash imo. Think it would have made more sense to give rogue a big bleed.


and what is a worse dps spec? elemental is about it, suppose you could argue windwalker pre patch but thats about it

as for rogues they don't need more damage, still behind only thing rogues really need is nerfs to the over the top op specs
I don't believe I'm getting lost in logic, I believe you're not understanding the logic.

The benchmark for Enhancement isn't that they the perfect amount of mobility, the perfect amount of damage, and etc etc.

It's that they're the benchmark for the perfect package. They have set strengths, they have set weaknesses, and none of them are overbearing. You should strive to be what Enhancement is right now.
Are you saying Shuriken is too strong now? I'm not sure I agree with that.
shuriken toss range attacks need a longer cd. right now, it's basically ascendance with no cooldown.

give the toss a combo point, but you shouldnt be able to have full uptime on ranged attacks, as a melee.


we already had that? we certainly arent crushing the top tier of arena with it. Is it just the dmg you want adjusted now that it was buffed?

I'd gladly trade the buff to ST and the extra energy for a either a lower cd on ss or letting it be used while rooted.. and a change to Feint being usable while stunned so we arent such an easy switch/tunnel/kill.
I don't believe I'm getting lost in logic, I believe you're not understanding the logic.

The benchmark for Enhancement isn't that they the perfect amount of mobility, the perfect amount of damage, and etc etc.

It's that they're the benchmark for the perfect package. They have set strengths, they have set weaknesses, and none of them are overbearing. You should strive to be what Enhancement is right now.


No I think your logic is misplaced. Would you consider being able to Stormblast a fully geared target for 180k+ as an element of "balance"? I'm not sure who declared enhancement the baseline and on what merits. If you want to boil it down to simple binaries I could say that a ret paladin offers among the most "balanced" gameplay for the fact it has strong mobility (granted by Emancipate, Freedom combined with Clemency and Long arm of the law), a level of survivability comparable to other hybrid classes (as it has only a single defensive, not counting immunities) similar to shadowpriests and enhancement shamans etc etc.

Your argument surrounding popular opinion is fundamentally flawed as well and mine stands; if you can present evidence and a theoretical set of circumstances which evokes your point then that holds, on an intellectual and applied level, the same amount of merit as some rank one stating "I think this is bad because it dies fast". I mean we've agreed on that point but I've got a serious sticking point with your application of logic, since you're applying it in dialetic sense.
I don't understand why the !@#$ ST was buffed the way it is anyways? It's a band aid fix for %^-* mobility.

Even with the nerfs, it is way stronger than Mfd and anticipation.... You get more !@#$ing combo points by using it than you know what to do with them, it encourages rogues to just kite using it because of our %^-*ty as !@#$ survival.

Keep it like it is on live, buff the damage a tiny bit and it would be perfectly fine.

Revert SV back to 16% damage against targets with a bleed.

Make feint useable while stunned and rogues will be perfectly fine in pvp, strong 1v1 but this game isnt about 1v1, no one can beat a BM hunter in a duel on live, doesnt mean they are over the top in 3v3 arena.
Worth mentioning: Shuriken Toss shouldn't be proccing non-lethal poisons. It is intended to be an ability that allows Rogues to continue to apply some pressure even after being peeled, though. That's part of the reason it was re-designed this way.

We’ll continue to keep an eye on balance, but (post-fix) we feel it’s a good option compared with other Rogue level 90 talents
01/24/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Conspiracy
Enh is considered the most balanced melee by people, and strong by most.


By who? Since MoP?

01/24/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Conspiracy
How does your mobility compare to theirs?


Rogues have limited mobility but their slows are better. Rogues are limited to crippling and deadly brew that sacrifices our 70% slow shiv. Ghost wolf can be dispelled.

01/24/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Conspiracy
How does your damage compare?


With a good set up better. But we rely on that set up for reliable damage.

01/24/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Conspiracy
How does your utility compare?


Bad. Our CC is limited to single target and limited swapping. Single target CC is great but relies on being in melee range. I'm pretty sure we're still smokebomb bots.

01/24/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Conspiracy
How does your CC compare?


Single target is fine but our swapping is slow. At least imo. Don't have much ranged CC like Shaman and hex and totems.
01/24/2013 01:11 PMPosted by Romavictor
We're pretty much the worst pvp class on live

I know you said class, but technically lolret and enh are the very worst dps specs. At least lolret and enh can spec into top shelf heal specs, I'll grant you.

Out of curiosity, what do rogues get from symbiosis? Because lolret gets wrath!


Well, at least you can use wrath in arena! Hooray battle res!

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