Tier 15-Massive ilvl Discrepancy

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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01/25/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Daxxarri
It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder.


To be fair, while LFR won't be run for straight up higher ilvl rewards by Heroic raiders, they will be encouraged to run LFR because it will provide faster progression through the legendary questline and for set bonuses. Unfortunately I don't see any way to circumvent these issues, as the backlash from removing either of these from LFR would be far louder than the complaints from Normal/Heroic raiders for having to run LFR.

I feel worst for those who are going to try and farm as many Elder Charms off daily bags as they can and then run LFR over and over to repeatedly use Charms off that one boss they want a drop from. =/
that's an entirely new topic but if I was reading the new elder charm discussion right, you can already accept the 2 or 300,000 lost subs from burnout you're forcing.
01/25/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Moìra
I don't see what's wrong with incentivizing LFR for even heroic raiders with VP/legendary tokens.


The real problem is that it burns people out on the content faster as well as not really being that much fun especially when it feels like you are "carrying" a bunch of people who don't really care or are afk.
01/25/2013 06:00 PMPosted by Sabod
The real problem is that it burns people out on the content faster as well as not really being that much fun especially when it feels like you are "carrying" a bunch of people who don't really care or are afk.


So turn off recount. Or set it up so it only tracks your numbers. I've found you enjoy the game so much better if you don't try to micromanage everyone around you.
If the preference is for gear to make a character more powerful, why bother forcing players through the leveling experience? They are no longer gaining power as a character. They are only gaining power when they get gear.

Without gear, they are ...nothing.
Make lfr share loot lockouts with norm/heroic and shrink the ilvl gap. 20 ilvls between lfr and heroic should be fine.
01/25/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Moìra
So turn off recount. Or set it up so it only tracks your numbers. I've found you enjoy the game so much better if you don't try to micromanage everyone around you.


Not gonna stop me from hitting sha of fear's enrage timer though, it ACTUALLY exists.

But I found out that LFR Bladelord has no hard enrage, as we hit 30 intensities.

01/25/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Joynal
If the preference is for gear to make a character more powerful, why bother forcing players through the leveling experience? They are no longer gaining power as a character. They are only gaining power when they get gear.


Around Wrath, the game turned away from being a traditional RPG and turned into purely gear farm simulator.
01/25/2013 06:04 PMPosted by Entitlement
Around Wrath, the game turned away from being a traditional RPG and turned into purely gear farm simulator.


ToC...
01/25/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Moìra
The real problem is that it burns people out on the content faster as well as not really being that much fun especially when it feels like you are "carrying" a bunch of people who don't really care or are afk.


So turn off recount. Or set it up so it only tracks your numbers. I've found you enjoy the game so much better if you don't try to micromanage everyone around you.

Doesn't take recount to guess why the group just wiped.
01/25/2013 06:13 PMPosted by Dorrell
ToC...


I didnt want to say that point exactly, but everything besides ulduar and the first 2 months of Nerfed Crown Citadel pretty much felt like work.
01/25/2013 06:00 PMPosted by Entitlement
that's an entirely new topic but if I was reading the new elder charm discussion right, you can already accept the 2 or 300,000 lost subs from burnout you're forcing.


yes because all 300k of those ppl left for the exact same reason /sarcasm
01/25/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Normal raiders now, would have normal Throne gear, not lfr, I don't see why you're comparing Normal Ilevel -> LFR Ilevel.


If I'm not missing something, I don't think he was. He's comparing 5.0/5.1 normal mode gear to 5.2 normal mode gear.

This, really can't believe Blizz still force raiders into LFR to stay competitive, WE DON'T LIKE IT.


It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder.


Draxxari, but if I dont want to do LFR? What should I do, if all the others players will be getting the LFR?

I dont like the mess on LFR, so I dont want to feel forced to join it.

Dont throw away the 5.0's raids from progression.
01/25/2013 06:37 PMPosted by Thaedris
yes because all 300k of those ppl left for the exact same reason /sarcasm


Left?

I'm making a prediction, last time I did http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png was around mid 2011

But ya, LFR isn't considered in progression

But you need to do it even more now, because it influences the balance of the future tiers item levels.
01/25/2013 06:00 PMPosted by Sabod
The real problem is that it burns people out on the content faster as well as not really being that much fun especially when it feels like you are "carrying" a bunch of people who don't really care or are afk.


Raiders most likely won't be doing LFR for more than 4-5 weeks until they finish their legendary tokens (unless you have rotten luck like me that had 30+ roll chances and STILL no Sha touched weapon)... I doubt they will get burn out from doing few weeks of LFR...
It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder.


Because trinkets, set bonuses etc., tend to perform better even with lower ilvl, and Valor Upgrades are not the sort of thing that are going to be in effect for everyone on those slots. Raiders aren't even as a rule guaranteed to have Heroic versions of trinkets or tier slots by the time 5.2 goes live, expecting 517 versions is a bit silly.

This is especially true when we're coming out of a raid tier where by design, you've ensured that only one trinket is actually 509 base, the other trinkets from Elegon, Will etc., are 502(+8) and definitely going to be competing with 502 trinkets from LFR. Especially since even the 509 trinket can be very bad (Terror being pretty terrible for several specs, for example).

The same holds true for other slots. The only Shield/Offhand for several is a 502 at best, if they even have them right now.

We’re confident that our planned item levels are not going to skew class balance or degenerate gameplay, and we’re monitoring the performance of all classes and specs in the new gear that will be available in 5.2 and going forward. Stat “inflation” was probably most out of control during the Wrath of the Lich King, but that was an issue with how powerful the gear was that was available as the expansion began perhaps more than any other factor. As a point of comparison, the item level 213 warrior set breastplate that was available in Naxxramas gave a level 80 player 2% critical strike chance; the item level 496 warrior set breastplate available in Heart of Fear gives 1.32% critical strike chance. We’ve learned from the past and carefully left ourselves a lot more room to grow this time around.


With regards to this, you're already looking at some hilariously odd things if you project upwards to T16. It's entirely possible if you use the same pattern that Guardians are going to be able to Armor Cap, and that Ferals will be pushing the Crit Cap, or that trinkets with Crit procs will be useless or Crit as a stat will be significantly weaker (even now having Terror proc approaches that point).

I don't possibly see how you can be confident about this when it's already projectable.
I'm concerned about those poorly-itemized pieces. We already use some 502 items over 509 items due to itemization, and non-spirit casters will almost certainly be able to find an upgrade since Vizier has the one and only 509+ int ring without spirit on it.
01/25/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
The cutting-edge groups that tear through the zone in the first week or two will be comparatively undergeared when they reach him. Without any other changes on our end, item progression means that the same encounter can pose a stern test to a top guild when 5.2 comes out, while still being doable by the groups that only reach the same encounter a couple of months down the line. For example, Heroic Gara’jal was a brutal test of DPS for raiders who faced him last October, but now he feels like part of a smooth progression for groups that are just graduating from normal modes and beginning Heroics.

I'd like to say that I really like this design. The content is pretty compelling for the guilds that get to do a large chunk of it it while undergeared and it's tuned at an engaging level of difficulty for the guilds that clear when they are at the gear level the content was tuned for. Even if the two are quite similar, it feels a great deal better to get some upgrades and come in next week and kill a boss than to be close on Monday then log in on Tuesday to find out the boss has 5% less health and does 5% less damage and immediately get a kill.

A couple posters have complained in this thread about the amount of effort that goes into improving one's character for PVE outside of raids compared to in previous expansions (really expensive consumables, no 300 feasts, no cauldrons, feeling required to do 45 dailies/week + some heroics to cap elder charms and valor). While I broadly agree with these players, I don't think that the design of having heroic raid gear drop from grinding dailies and ilvl upgrades drop from undertuned 5-mans is inextricably linked to the design of having players' gear substantially improve week to week throughout the tier.

Similarly, some posters have stated that the huge discrepancy between entry-level and high-end gear will cause problems, but I think that the discrepancy is not as much of an issue as the lack an easy catch-up mechanism. Historically, as far back as 2.4, there has been a mechanism for quickly catching your character up to (nearly) a level of gear appropriate to the previous tier. In 5.3, for the first time in 5 years, that will not be the case. The huge difference in the effectiveness of the gear exacerbates the issue, rather than being an issue itself.
01/25/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Daxxarri
It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder?


Heroic Raider =! raider with full best in slot gear.
01/25/2013 06:54 PMPosted by Emmey
The real problem is that it burns people out on the content faster as well as not really being that much fun especially when it feels like you are "carrying" a bunch of people who don't really care or are afk.


Raiders most likely won't be doing LFR for more than 4-5 weeks until they finish their legendary tokens (unless you have rotten luck like me that had 30+ roll chances and STILL no Sha touched weapon)... I doubt they will get burn out from doing few weeks of LFR...


You have to look at how much time they're putting in all at once is brutal. Normal raid schedule + 4 wings of LFR + daily farm. Even a normal raid schedule burns many people out, add on those other 2 things on top is quite hard. And it's a shame because this tier was really well done mostly and next one looks great as well.

The problem Blizz has is they have too many groups to please at once so some suffer, especially in LFR. As was mentioned, having LFR heroes, normal raiders and heroic raiders all in the same spot is not a good recipe for success. But what else can they do? Separating the lockouts? How can you dumb down the mechanics any more? Because that's what you'd need to happen if normal and heroic raiders left. Just look at LFR on the weekend, so many wipes. Then you have a large portion of normal mode raiders who almost need that gear from LFR to progress in normal mode. So 2/3 almost need it and are a much larger population than heroic raiders.
01/25/2013 06:54 PMPosted by Emmey
I doubt they will get burn out from doing few weeks of LFR...


Seeing the same content an extra time or 2 a week definitely lowers the shelf life of the content a bit, its mainly a problem for people who can't stop themselves running it on all 17 of their alts though, not a problem for me.

01/25/2013 07:03 PMPosted by Somewhat
I'd like to say that I really like this design

I do as well, making me more powerful rather then making the bosses I'm fighting underpowered just feels better all in all, with all the gear creep going back and doing t14 in t16 gear will be funny though, you will have fights lasting less then a minute.

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