Talent tree system or paint by numbers?

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The only thing that was cool about the old system was that some of the talents were retired.

I miss Nether Protection.

But still. Apart from some obvious choices, the talent/glyph model is more about utility rather than maximum output like the old one.

This leads to a larger amount of viable choices, if less actual changes. (Because lets be honest. If you were 41/0/0 Affliction in Cata and glyphing for Destruction, it wasn't a viable choice).

The main downside in the new system (at least in my eyes) is that it makes your character feel far less powerful while leveling. Sure, 1% crit wasn't an exciting choice at max level when going for the cookie cutter spec, but when leveling, I liked the feeling of being more powerful.
The new talent system is just what the Glyph System was supposed to be. Everything about the new talent trees are there with the sole purpose of doing exactly what Glyphs were meant to do. It pisses me off to no end that this happened.

When they introduced glyphs, they were too scared to do them right so they made them terrible. The idea was that you would have choices you could make to cater to whatever fight you are doing which would ultimately allow your talent choices to be more static. Glyphs never made it to that point because the choices were uninteresting and most were ineffectual. Again, they were too scared to do it right.

So, now you have a Talent System performing the role that Glyphs were meant to fill and you have a Glyph system that is so utterly confused about what it's role is supposed to be that it's hardly useful.

I don't think the mistake was having talents that were "boring" because they were just stat increases. I think the mistake was thinking that every aspect of talents trees needed to be some big deal. With all the changes they've made, it's creating this great divide in game design. You now either have Max Level or Not Max Level. Long on the days where you really felt your character progress as you leveled up which is a major reason why I just don't get the same feeling when leveling alts anymore. It's all meant to make your character "complete" at max level rather than progressing your character as you go. This whole "I just hit max level, time to start actually playing my character."
01/25/2013 09:14 AMPosted by Erras
Depended on the talent. I didn't feel anything when I got another +1% to Moonfire damage.


But you got one step closer to eclipse at the same time. Some progression is better than none.


You get the same progression now. *shrug*
Talent trees that enable more than one valid option - one of the world's great unsolvable riddles, it seems.
You know why the new system is vastly superior to the old system?

In between fights, if I'm not in combat, I can completely change all my talent point selections to match the situation I'm in or need to perform.

That level of versatility is awesome.


this. yes you could change the old talent trees inbetween fights, but it would take you 5 min to go look up the chart then alt tab back and forth. now i can do it in less time.

at least thats how it is for shadow priests. im always changing my lvl 90 talent per boss, and in 5.2 ill be switching out PW:I per boss too...
I always did my talent points as what was best to help me level and once i reached 60 (and later 70) i respecced to help ME be best at my top level knowing my preferences, and how i played. A guide might give suggestiings if i wasnt sure, but over all, i did as i felt was best for me.

That allowwed me at one point to be third on the healing chart in a 40 MC raid... and i never use Drain Life once. Healers got yelled at for a Warlock outhealing them. The two warlocks with me had no idea how i did it... no one did in that 40 man raid... but me... and later the Raid/Guild leader who was impressed that i knew my class and compensated for my weaknesses the best way for ME to do.

So despite its flaws and weaknesses, give me my TBC lock back... and i will have so much fun again!


So, uhhh, what was your dps like? You know, that thing you were brought to do?
You know why the new system is vastly superior to the old system?

In between fights, if I'm not in combat, I can completely change all my talent point selections to match the situation I'm in or need to perform.

That level of versatility is awesome.


this. yes you could change the old talent trees inbetween fights, but it would take you 5 min to go look up the chart then alt tab back and forth. now i can do it in less time.

at least thats how it is for shadow priests. im always changing my lvl 90 talent per boss, and in 5.2 ill be switching out PW:I per boss too...


There is a very simple solution to that alt+Tabbing bit and looking things up.. it's called learning how to play your class.

You do not need a website to tell you how to spec, you never did. All you needed to know was how your class functioned.
I like a lot the new system, is better than what it was before.

People claim for individuality but everything was reduced to cookie cutter specs, what is the difference with the old system where you got a couple free talent points to put in utility with the new one where it cuts straight to those utility points in a more fashioned way

The new talents try to affect as small as possible the performance output because we would end with cookie cutter specs again, instead they aim for utility and play style

And i love the min-max brought by the change of talents and glyphs on the go, you can adapt faster given that you have the time to do the changes and the reagents, on top of that is now the same with engineering tinkers, so i can choose the ones that go better with the task i'm about to do.

Removing the big talents trees from wotlk felt weird since you couldn't go on hybrid specs, but again, any player that went with hybrid specs did it because it was a bad design of the spec and because players would solve the bad design with hybridization that blizz never really tunned properly the talent trees

TL;DR - we're better off without the old trees that overwhelmed newcomers and made veterans feel better with their specs after hours of forum reading, or plain copy-paste of the specs from someone else
01/25/2013 09:26 AMPosted by Sushiluver
Talent trees that enable more than one valid option - one of the world's great unsolvable riddles, it seems.


but there wasnt more then one valid option in the old trees. in cata i went to EJ, put in my points, and never looked at my talent tree again. new system, im changing it per boss...
01/25/2013 09:30 AMPosted by Cuddlez
You do not need a website to tell you how to spec, you never did. All you needed to know was how your class functioned.


like 90% of the players learned how their spec worked by reading up in the internet, and talents were not an exception but one of the causes of that, the fear of failure that drives most newcomers makes you just want to know right away what's best for you
Could have simply removed talent and glyph from the game.
I like the new system. The old system was "paint by numbers" as well. So? Now I can swap talents out between fights if I want to, or between PVP and PVE. You can experiment to see what works better for you, as well. I love that. There were a couple talents I was able to swap out when I felt better about others; neither is the "right" choice overall, it's just which one works better with my gameplay.
01/25/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Fäbre
You do not need a website to tell you how to spec, you never did. All you needed to know was how your class functioned.


like 90% of the players learned how their spec worked by reading up in the internet, and talents were not an exception but one of the causes of that, the fear of failure that drives most newcomers makes you just want to know right away what's best for you


To me I don't believe that makes for a great player. You should know why you want certain talents over others, or what gem or enchant or reforge etc.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for reading up on how things work, but just going and getting a talent spec is just... terrible. Always has been and will continue being terrible.

Like, just looking at your frost spec you've gotten one of the more important talents wrong that increases your DPS, you've gone Runic Corruption over Blood Tap. Blood Tap is much better in the long run, it is a marginal difference and you can play just fine with it, but one is better than the other.

That's just an example and I'm not picking on you, just replying to you and using your character as reference. I don't know how well you play so I could never really judge you.
01/25/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Squekor
They gave us "variety" by making the choices irrelevant to the game. You have freedom to choose, because your choice is meaningless. How is this an improvement?


I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.

The are doing the same thing with glyphs. The top tier was removed completely. Many of the best or "mathematically superior choices" have been removed and added to your rotation as baseline skills. Minor glyphs are now almost nothing but cosmetic changes.


You're upset that you got some glyphs as baseline skills? o.O
They gave us "variety" by making the choices irrelevant to the game. You have freedom to choose, because your choice is meaningless. How is this an improvement?


I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.

The are doing the same thing with glyphs. The top tier was removed completely. Many of the best or "mathematically superior choices" have been removed and added to your rotation as baseline skills. Minor glyphs are now almost nothing but cosmetic changes.


You're upset that you got some glyphs as baseline skills? o.O


Who said you were allowed in here? o.0

I don't think getting the glyphs baseline was the issue, as much as it was gutting the system which seemed fine.

Personally the only thing I dislike about the Glyph system is learning the Glyphs permanently. Made my Scribe a sad lil Goblin.

edit: Auto Correct hates me.

edit 2: Spelt edit wrong the first time... gunna be one of those days.

P.S. Bashiok, I do enjoy the tree avatar.
I think the new system is superior. The old system had clearly-superior throughput choices that you had to take, so even though there were more choices, they weren't really choices.

The new system is more about playstyle and trade-offs. There are a few clunkers in there to be sure, but by and large, you have to actually look at the talent tree and decide which talents suit how you want to play.

The fights are always going to be tuned assuming you've made the "best" choices, so if there are talents that are clearly superior to others, the boss fights are tuned based on the assumption that you've made the "right" choices. Again, that means they're not really choices. The fact is that the choices in the talent tree are far more meaningful now than they were.
They gave us "variety" by making the choices irrelevant to the game. You have freedom to choose, because your choice is meaningless. How is this an improvement?


Not true, at all. On my shaman, as elemental, choosing conductivity and using it effectively was the difference between downing heroic garajal and wiping.
I do prefer the new system - the old one really only gave you one choice: Use the objectively best build or be wrong.

That said, I have to wonder if the evolution of the Glyph and Talent systems are an admission that, in a large scale and mini-max oriented game like WoW, there can't really be that much variety.

At the end of the day, I'm not sure the current talent and glyph systems add much gameplay. There is a little (do I want my polymorph to be a duck, or a squid?). But for the most part, the efficiency-driven mentality of WoW players stands in the way of meaningful power choices.
The old talent trees were paint by numbers too only there were more numbers. Many people just googled or looked up on EJ / maintankadin / whatever for the correct build.

The nice thing about the new system is you can paint a purple cat and not suffer a major dps loss because orange cats were mathematically superior.


win

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