Talent tree system or paint by numbers?

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01/25/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Farslayer
The fact is that the choices in the talent tree are far more meaningful now than they were.

I agree with you on one level (they are more meaningful than before). But only because they used to be 100% meaningless, and now they are only 99% meaningless.

Perhaps Shaman trees are more complicated, but on my main (a Priest), I have found little reason to change talents. I either find I'm using the "best" one all the time (e.g., Halo), the "best" one for throughput (e.g. "From Darkness Comes Light") or the "best" one more my personal playstyle (e.g., I like Body and Soul more than Angelic Feather).

In all three cases, I have really no incentive to change them until the next patch, much like the old system. So in many ways, not much is different (and again, I can't speak to other classes - YMMV).
I personally enjoyed the "illusion of choice" that the old talent trees provided, but to each his own.

My main concern about the current talent trees isn't so much a problem with the trees themselves, it's that there are a LOT of levels where you get absolutely nothing. I miss getting spells on even-numbered levels and talents on odd-numbered levels. That way you always got SOMETHING. The way it is now with talents and no spell ranks, sometimes you'll level up and nothing will change. "All right! Finally, level 35! Let's see what I get! ... ... ... Nothing. At all."
I find plenty of things to do with the Paladin talent tree. Some are more relevant to PvP, some are more relevant to AOE, some to single target, etc. It's even easy enough to change them mid raid to get a better spec for a particular fight.

I'm quite happy with the new set up.
They gave us "variety" by making the choices irrelevant to the game. You have freedom to choose, because your choice is meaningless. How is this an improvement?


I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.

The are doing the same thing with glyphs. The top tier was removed completely. Many of the best or "mathematically superior choices" have been removed and added to your rotation as baseline skills. Minor glyphs are now almost nothing but cosmetic changes.


You're upset that you got some glyphs as baseline skills? o.O


There's no doubt the current talent system is way more superior than the previous one. The only problem, what i believe thats the main reason people still complain, its because the talents still lacks a better balance. While you have 3 talents on a tier that you can choose whenever you can, theres actually only 1 or 2 that is viable (at least for the most part of situations).

I'll pick as an example the Hunter's talents:

Tier 3: Aspect of the Iron Hawk is by far the best choise here for most part of the situations. 95 % of the time i'll use it for bot PVP and PVE (since there's maybe only 1 or 2 encounters where Spirit Bond worth something).

Tier 2: I'll never pick anything else than Silencing Shot for PVP.

Tier 6: There's only 1 option here for 99% of the situations. While GT in its current state became a rotational skill, the other 2 dont offer the same, instead we may choose them only because of heavy AOE situation (talking about Barrage, cause Powershot is a joke). What about if Barrage and Powershot offered the same damage for both single DPS and AOE, so we could choose one them for its utility instead of its damage?

The point is: the talent system needs a better balance so people can really choose whatever pleases them most.

Edit: About the talents, yeah, Blizz needs to make some changes for some classes, but about the Glyphs, they seem fine to me. Only a couple glyphs remained in the game as 'mandatory', but Blizz are already fixing that either changing or making them baseline (like the ones for Warlocks that increased the number of Embers and SShards, and the 'Marked for Death' one for Hunters).
01/25/2013 09:59 AMPosted by Bashiok
They gave us "variety" by making the choices irrelevant to the game. You have freedom to choose, because your choice is meaningless. How is this an improvement?


I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.

The are doing the same thing with glyphs. The top tier was removed completely. Many of the best or "mathematically superior choices" have been removed and added to your rotation as baseline skills. Minor glyphs are now almost nothing but cosmetic changes.


You're upset that you got some glyphs as baseline skills? o.O


I am so upset. Unequivocally upset. How dare you give me nice things?
01/25/2013 09:59 AMPosted by Bashiok
You're upset that you got some glyphs as baseline skills? o.O


While at the same time, making glyphs even more meaningless.

Can we please make Glyphs not be the leftovers stuck in purgatory because the new talent trees are EXACTLY what the Glyph system was supposed to do?
While at the same time, making glyphs even more meaningless.

Can we please make Glyphs not be the leftovers stuck in purgatory because the new talent trees are EXACTLY what the Glyph system was supposed to do?


Customize skills? I think they do that well.

Speaking as a paladin the new minor glyphs are above and beyond better than the old ones. The old ones were so horrible in Cata that many pallies left them blank just as a show of contempt.
It follows a trend of blizzard telling us they are giving us "more choice" by taking away the number of choices we have.

While I will agree there were plenty of cookie cutter builds that people felt pigeon holed into that is a failure by the design team to full test out their builds or to listen to the community of high end theorycrafters.

Basically they made every class cookie cutter then offer some fluff to complete the illusion of choice when all the choice we are given is a matter of aesthetics except those few talents on some classes that again are just as required as they were before the talent changes.

TLDR: Blizzard made every spec cookie cutter then offered some pretty colours to distract people from the simplicity.
01/25/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Waste
The fact is that the choices in the talent tree are far more meaningful now than they were.

I agree with you on one level (they are more meaningful than before). But only because they used to be 100% meaningless, and now they are only 99% meaningless.

Perhaps Shaman trees are more complicated, but on my main (a Priest), I have found little reason to change talents. I either find I'm using the "best" one all the time (e.g., Halo), the "best" one for throughput (e.g. "From Darkness Comes Light") or the "best" one more my personal playstyle (e.g., I like Body and Soul more than Angelic Feather).

In all three cases, I have really no incentive to change them until the next patch, much like the old system. So in many ways, not much is different (and again, I can't speak to other classes - YMMV).


You are doing shadow priest wrong then (yes I can see your main). I change talents and sometimes glyphs for literally every fight in this tier. The new talent tree is simple, but it still allows for min/maxing. The only thing I wish is that there weren't certain tiers that have little or nothing to do with the ENTIRE game (such as the tier 1 for priest, great for pvp but little impact on raiding).
01/25/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Erras
I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.


With all due respect... have you? As previously stated, only two of my six choices have any meaningful effect at all on my character. And those two choices don't really alter my experience much. Its mostly the choice between a cooldown and a passive ability to improve my DPS. It certainly isn't much of a fun or exciting choice now, is it? Well, I guess that's subjective, but its certainly not fun or exciting for me.

And it is even worse on leveling characters. I honestly am not sure I even have my talents set on some of my lower levels. They are so trivial and unimportant, I completely forget about them. Gone are the days that reaching a new level meant something. :(


You hit the nail on the head.

There is no thought that goes into my spec anymore, i just pick whatever and roll with it other than the few abilities that actually offer something worth taking.
01/25/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Staan
You are doing shadow priest wrong then (yes I can see your main). I change talents and sometimes glyphs for literally every fight in this tier. The new talent tree is simple, but it still allows for min/maxing. The only thing I wish is that there weren't certain tiers that have little or nothing to do with the ENTIRE game (such as the tier 1 for priest, great for pvp but little impact on raiding).


01/25/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Staan
wish is that there weren't certain tiers that have little or nothing to do with the ENTIRE game (such as the tier 1 for priest, great for pvp but little impact on raiding).


01/25/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Staan
little or nothing to do with the ENTIRE game (such as the tier 1 for priest, great for pvp but little impact


ENTIRE game ... great for pvp


:)
01/25/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Erras
I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.


With all due respect... have you? As previously stated, only two of my six choices have any meaningful effect at all on my character. And those two choices don't really alter my experience much. Its mostly the choice between a cooldown and a passive ability to improve my DPS. It certainly isn't much of a fun or exciting choice now, is it? Well, I guess that's subjective, but its certainly not fun or exciting for me.

And it is even worse on leveling characters. I honestly am not sure I even have my talents set on some of my lower levels. They are so trivial and unimportant, I completely forget about them. Gone are the days that reaching a new level meant something. :(


Except most of those levels were meaningless, even though you got a talent point.
01/25/2013 09:59 AMPosted by Bashiok
The are doing the same thing with glyphs. The top tier was removed completely. Many of the best or "mathematically superior choices" have been removed and added to your rotation as baseline skills. Minor glyphs are now almost nothing but cosmetic changes.

You're upset that you got some glyphs as baseline skills? o.O


Yeah, this one boggled my mind, too. Glyph... or skill. I'll take skill, thank you. Especially ones I don't have to pay for, as Yahtzee put it, like buying the next new apple product every few levels.

Also, love the talents. There are some I will always take, regardless of build, because they're just too good in my opinion, but that's only because they fit my playstyle better than the other two for that tier. GJ, guys.
01/25/2013 10:32 AMPosted by Bashiok
You are doing shadow priest wrong then (yes I can see your main). I change talents and sometimes glyphs for literally every fight in this tier. The new talent tree is simple, but it still allows for min/maxing. The only thing I wish is that there weren't certain tiers that have little or nothing to do with the ENTIRE game (such as the tier 1 for priest, great for pvp but little impact on raiding).


wish is that there weren't certain tiers that have little or nothing to do with the ENTIRE game (such as the tier 1 for priest, great for pvp but little impact on raiding).


little or nothing to do with the ENTIRE game (such as the tier 1 for priest, great for pvp but little impact


ENTIRE game ... great for pvp


:)


I think you misunderstood the context of that Bash......I know its great for pvp but I rarely find a reason to push any of those buttons raiding. The other tiers are not that way. Not really a complaint, but constructive criticism.
I want a ton more minor glyphs (hunter minor glyphs are not that fun)

Also leveling now is less "rewarding", like the las 5 levels, where you get 1 skill for the entire run. In times past, you alt leas got to say: yay now i have 1% more crit!

But i like the new talent system, i hope they tweaked some numbers a bit (for hunters at least, fervor, TotH, and DB have a clear winner, because of math. Same happens in the next tier (LR, BS vs AmoC). If these were similar, i wouldn't feel guilty about picking TotH and BS, witch I think are cooler but are mathematically inferior.

So yeah, tweak the numbers, fix powershot and we are golden.
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