Shadow Orb Generation Out of Combat Part III

Priest
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I guess for PVE, just add more 42hp critters in the dungeons to build orbs between fights/wipes?
I think the out of combat regeneration is a neat idea. I vote for that.

Also Psychic Horror needs to be modified to either consume only ONE orb, or none at all.

Mobility wise - Basically the only thing they probably could do is make mind flay castable while moving? Unless I missed another good alternative. Mind Flay is so weak as it is, I don't see how it could be that big of an issue. As long as it wouldn't snare the target. Hm... I'll be checking up on this thread. VERY interesting!

Keep it up!
To say that I am deeply saddened by this thread and it's precursors would be an understatement. You could not be campaigning more hard for something that matters less...

Aside from 'feeling cool' with a consistent DPx3 opener it would do absolutely nothing to solve any problem that we have with DPS.

Not to say that I don't appreciate passionate Shadow advocates you're just putting a whole lot of effort into something that's not even on our Top 10 issues list.
I am sick to death of short-change contrarians like yourself that cannot see the bigger picture.

We have nothing to look forward to. 5.2 is our deathknell and you welcome it with open arms.
YO NIXXE! you think you nuked that arguement, but I got some news for you.

This isn't over!

This is what you were about to get the moment they deleted that thread and banned me.

Ghostcrawler is not the only one who has worn the mantle of lead game designer. It was given to him during Wrath of the Lich King. Obviously, we wouldn't have need for lead game designer if that role didnt come with some measure of power. If I recall, the majority of the original World of Warcraft development team stepped out to go work on other projects and a new team had to step in. They brought with them new ideas. The philosophy of that development team is vastly different than the philosophy of the older development team.

Let's get this straight, they revolutionized the game in many different ways; but they have also crippled thier own work. They have destroyed most of the world with linear questing and phasing. I see no long term benefit of providing an excellent questing experience when it accosts the playerbase with entire chuncks of landmass missing from the map. When the questchains that bring about these phased zones prevents players from experiencing exciting World PvP or memorable RP in those phased zones with other players, it ought to flash a red flag that something may be wrong with Blizzard's philosophy regarding spoon feeding its customers with on rails content.

How exactly is getting that wrapped up in a storyline supposed to help simplify development down the road in anyway shape or form? We gonna ever see good remake of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King? According to Blizzard's design philosophy, we are; But its not gonna be any good though because they've written themselves into a corner with the lore. This bull!@#$ on rails content suffers DBZ syndrome. I feel like I am watching a melodramatic dog turd dry out in the sun. Its nothing more than an interactive pop-up fanfiction that we explore from zone to zone on a rail. We never actually see what happens in an area before or after the "calamity" happens. We are always forced into new zones with new problems without proper backstory to explain why any of this matters to us.

We do this all the while being brainwashed into caring about these characters who exhibit extreme power, yet show no real depth to thier character. Even if they do show depth to thier character or if we want to learn the backstory of a zone we can't see it in game because Blizzard expects us to read a novel written by some hack author who can't even properly convey scenary. Knack can't write jack %^-* about anything but dragons and elves. That's over and done with! With the portrayel of the aspects in the game, we were bored the tears with thier very existance. Knowing the release of Knack's novel may influence more melodramatic phasing within the world is enough to drive anyone crazy.

The world's stage is dead, so we can only procure entertainment through instanced content.

Blizzard has no solution for this problem. Instead of coming up with a solution to the problem they only exasperate it by having these damned lore figures steal the spotlight from the hardworking playerbase. Because the raids themselves are tied into the storyline and they want people to know of the storyline, they see no value in promoting challenging content for people to see and have to themselves. No more exclusive raids because Tirion mother!@#$ing Fordring and Bolvar mother!@#$ing Fordragon have to have thier 15 minutes of fame atop the Frozen Throne. Am I cutting deep yet? Even with the invention of the internet, Mr. Nub wants to see this dribble and once he has, there is no longer a desire or obligation to prove himself worthy to do hardmodes cause he can see the entire thing in a %^-*!@#ed pug looking for raid.

You don't prolong the success of a game by making it easy enough for a drooling retard to plow through the raid to see content. That only makes the kills about the phat loot. You make it life-alteringly hard so when people get that kill, there is a measure of accomplishment behind it. Raiding is about the strength and scope of the experiences shared with your team, through the unblievably high rush of overcoming insurmontable odds, to coddling each and holding the line after being utterly crushed by it. Thats what really brings in the numbers. Thats what people pay to experience. You incentivize this experience by making it exclusive and elite. People shouldn't be able to enter the 9th circle of hell and slay satan himself within the first hour. Failures should only be able to see the gate and nothing more. If they want the experience, they should have to work for it!

But you know what? They cant even do that because the guild leveling system Blizzard created manifests terrible power centralizations that stranglehold and devour the recruitment of anyone who wants to start out doing this kind of thing. Has anyone here been strongarmed out of a good member because a bigger guild flexed a more impressive muscle? Blizzard's design philosophy does not give everyone an equal footing in the race to establish dominance on the geo-political server community. But wait, thats why we get cross realm zoning! Yeah,lets load up the raid with cronies from another server, that'll end well. While I do agree that cross realm zoning has helped with the population problem, Blizzard should have never created a poisenous community enviroment in the first place. Fixing a problem with another problem seems to be how Blizzard does thier business.

Because thier content is devoured by locusts on all levels; the growing casual base and whats left of the hardcore base force Blizzard to pump out content at record levels. I can plainly see that they try thier best to get new content to the public, but I cannot give them sanctuary because they wallow in thier own decisions and waste potential by using this time to rehash old content. It may be quick and easy, but its also inexcusable from the standpoint of hyping player excitement. Either everything should updated at once, or nothing should be. Everytime they do this, everyone sighs because it has been proven again and again that these revamps are but mere shadows of what they once were. It just takes the steam out of the engine and more people quit. Which means Blizzard thinks they need to make the game even more acceable. There is gonna come a point in time where no on gives a flying $%^- what new content comes out if they havn't stopped caring already.

So lets get down to relevance here. in order to escape this lame hamster wheel, I PvP.

I have played shadow priest since vanilla, I have seen it all and have experienced it first hand. When Ghostcrawler started in Wrath of the Lich King, they had created a rehashed Naxxramas before they had time for class balance. I am not gonna even touch on how much of a joke that place is compared to what it used to be. What's important here is this, Balancing PvP around PvE is what causes the paradox of the two aspects within thier design. PvE is in a vaccum, you can cook the trash and boss numbers however you want them to be after the fact. If they just spent time painstakingly balancing the class' around each other before they created the content, there would be no issue. I am not saying that minor teaks aren't forgivable from time to time, but they are constantly changing the numbers and effects around. No one even knows whats up and whats down. To say they have a hold the situation is a *!@#$%^ed farce. Look at the rest of the game. If you still can't take the hint that they don't know what they are doing, you dont know what proper design looks like and feels like.

Also, because Blizzard incrementally raises the maximum level every so often, they should feel inclined to do a number crunch here at some point. Guess who's bright idea it was to not to do a number crunch this expansion. That's right, Ghostcrawler. Its just another color in his grand flawless painting you keep reminding me about. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but he likes to dig deep holes for himself that he has absolutely no chance to fill in. A number crunch would have made things a hell of a lot easier to witness and to balance, but they were just too lazy to shave a few zeros off of the finished product. Blizzard continues to condone all of this non-sense. Things that make absolutely no sense if you step back and loook at the big picture. Why the hell do you even dare defend him?

He must not like redemption because he's repeating obvious mistakes and doing the same things all over again. His biggest cardinal sin was the rise of the ret paladin in season five. His stellar development on the priests was less than salvagable that season and we were absolutely rolled for almost a full year. We are just staring to climb out of that pit and here he comes to throw us back in. He is making a repeat effort to dig another hole that he will be unable to fill. We have to experience the consequence of his mistake all over again because the majority of the priest community won't stand up to call him out. Worse than that, you'll even defend him when its clear hes learned nothing from his dog days in Wrath of the Lich King. He is unwilling to make meaningful changes that benefit everyone, not just a select few and he most certainly knows it at this point.

You know what, you might be right about one thing. I may not know the "complex" machinations involves within Blizzard's development and Ghostcrawler might not be the grand mastermind I think he is, but he should strive to give everyone a fair cut in the PvP department at the very least and he should strive to be a better developer because he has given the hallowed throne that is lead systems designer. You may be right about one thing, but you've made a critical mistake. You are not the forum police and you are not gonna stand in the way of the entire priest class getting its just deserts. Your entire arguement was so one dimensional and flaunted that you didn't even consider that this for me - is but one small grievence I have with the overall development of Blizzard.

I have to stand up for something. If its going to be anything at all, its gonna be the priest class.

Make room for the king roach please. I've had dustbunnies that put up more of a fight than you.
I'm now detecting the problem here.

You haven't done much research about Shadow or adequately looked into some of the extremely worthwhile suggestions others in the community have made. Please go do some reading, educate yourself, then redirect your efforts into something that is actually going to help us.

Let me also be clear here: Even if we got 1 SO / sec ooc it would do absolutely nothing to improve the issues that Shadow Priests have.


Edit: I feel as if I have just read a manifesto by a future three-named news headline. Now I'm not so sure I want you advocating for Shadow at all. I'm a little creeped out tbh.
Oh shove it.

I am a veteran shadow priest. You are but a mere pissant naysayer.

Blocking the flow of ideas is pathetic. you don't see me doing that.

You accuse me of not reading? That statement is absolutely unfounded.

veteran != knowledgeable. Only saying nay to your idea.

I'm not blocking the flow, I'm attempting to redirect the flow to where it would be more useful.

I've rightly accused you of not reading material pertinent to the subject of Shadow's deficiencies and possible fixes. I feel confident in saying that as I am one who has taken on the endeavor of educating myself about every aspect of Shadow as both a pursuit to increase my own knowledge on the subject but so that I may pass that knowledge onto others. My ultimate motivation in this game is to see that the Shadow Priest class and all those who play it are as successful as possible.


Edit:
Moved to new post.
Oh shove it.

I am a veteran shadow priest. You are but a mere pissant naysayer.

Blocking the flow of ideas is pathetic. you don't see me doing that.

You accuse me of not reading? That statement is absolutely unfounded.

veteran != knowledgeable. Only saying nay to your idea.

I'm not blocking the flow, I'm attempting to redirect the flow to where it would be more useful.

I've rightly accused you of not reading material pertinent to the subject of Shadow's deficiencies and possible fixes. I feel confident in saying that as I am one who has taken on the endeavor of educating myself about every aspect of Shadow as both a pursuit to increase my own knowledge on the subject but so that I may pass that knowledge onto others. My ultimate motivation in this game is to see that the Shadow Priest class and all those who play it are as successful as possible.


Then by all means, you are aware that most of our current ideas are being ignored and we are being snubbed this patch? If we aren't gonna get what we conventionally ask for, than its time to move the discussion elsewhere. It is time to think outside of the box. This implementation is better than nothing and trust me, we are going to get nothing if we refuse to be creative.
Moved from previous post.

Edit:
You want reasonable change? This is a reasonable change.

This is a valid implementation, especially in our current situation.

I take it you want to be confined to this nerf pit Blizzard has placed us in?

It's not about whether a change is reasonable or not, it's about it effect. 1 SO/sec ooc would not cure any ill Shadow suffers from.

On the contrary: Shadow should thrive. I'm merely pointing out this suggestion does nothing to change that.

Edit 2:
This is a valid implementation, especially in our current situation. Blizzard has made an effort to ignore all ideas and opinions here on the forums. We will get nothing this patch, thanks to people llike you.

Devs do not read class forums. You will find your ideas have a better audience in that regard in the DD or PTR forums. Have you tried Tweeting GC as well? I do. Regularly.

If anything myopic rantings will do nothing to persuade developers.

Than by all means, you are aware that most of our current ideas are being ignored and we being snubbed? If we aren't gonna get what we conventionally ask for, than its time to move the discussion elsewhere. It is time to think outside of the box, This implementation is better than nothing because they plan on giving us nothing.

Ooc SO regen is not outside of the box as it was something floated around in Beta, as was ooc SO decay. Both were nixed.

Let me reiterate that any idea that does nothing to improve Shadow is a poor one, no matter who it's from or what it looks like.
Devs do not read class forums.

Devs do in fact read the class forums. That statement is false.

Have you tried Tweeting GC as well? I do. Regularly.

Right there, you have just proven that you have not read all the feedback on this topic.

It says right there in Feedback Loop #2 we have indeed tweeted Ghostcrawler about it.

You will find your ideas have a better audience in that regard in the DD or PTR forums

This is further proof that you do not practice what you preech. Part II is on the PTR forums.

Let me reiterate that any idea that does nothing to improve Shadow is a poor one, no matter who it's from or what it looks like.

If this implementation will do very little to help the shadow specialization, implement it anyway!

We are hurting, and I will take anything at this moment in time. Why the high standard?

What's it gonna hurt if its so damn insignificant? Arguements like that are dead on arrival.

Ooc SO regen is not outside of the box as it was something floated around in Beta, as was ooc SO decay. Both were nixed.

I invite you to look at Feedback Loop #2. Out of all the specializations in the game, we are most similar to affliction warlocks. They already have a resource generation out of combat implementaition. So should we.
I am waiting for Nixxe to read post #65 of this thread.

Someone go get "Mr. Nuke" please. He needs to see that.

That was a nice little gimmick. Too bad it was all flash and no substance.
I'm now detecting the problem here.

You haven't done much research about Shadow or adequately looked into some of the extremely worthwhile suggestions others in the community have made. Please go do some reading, educate yourself, then redirect your efforts into something that is actually going to help us.

Let me also be clear here: Even if we got 1 SO / sec ooc it would do absolutely nothing to improve the issues that Shadow Priests have.


Edit: I feel as if I have just read a manifesto by a future three-named news headline. Now I'm not so sure I want you advocating for Shadow at all. I'm a little creeped out tbh.


Agreed.
I'm now detecting the problem here.

You haven't done much research about Shadow or adequately looked into some of the extremely worthwhile suggestions others in the community have made. Please go do some reading, educate yourself, then redirect your efforts into something that is actually going to help us.

Let me also be clear here: Even if we got 1 SO / sec ooc it would do absolutely nothing to improve the issues that Shadow Priests have.


Edit: I feel as if I have just read a manifesto by a future three-named news headline. Now I'm not so sure I want you advocating for Shadow at all. I'm a little creeped out tbh.


Agreed.


You must be tough stuff resorting to petty insults before you can debunk the merit of this implementation.

I am here and you will just have to deal with it. Unless you can absolutely debunk my position, I am not going anywhere. Those "extremely worthwhile suggestions" have naysayers blocking them as well because no idea is ever gonna climb to the top unless someone puts them there. Nothing will take off if no one makes the effort to put the contrarians in thier place.

You cannot call me a looney just because I adamentally fight for one implementation you don't agree with. The naysayers of those other implementations would call anyone looney if they fought hard for them like I do here! You guys want change? then get to it! Make those ideas rise above mine. The question remains, do you have more energy to defend your favored implementation than you do shooting down its rival?

Seriously, the case for those implemenations are a lot easier to lay out and a lot easier to defend than this one. You won't have to get your dainty little hands dirtier than mine when you defend your implementation.

So where is your effort? Did the naysayers convert you when you failed to defend your idea?
PvE Response

The problem, as many have stated, is that you're overemphasizing the need for this change. It's a minor DPS increase at best and probably fits best under the QoL umbrella. It would certainly be nice to start every fight with 3 SOs available, but it's not a necessity or, as you've argued, "top priority for our spec". Nor should it, in my opinion, take precedence over more important issues.

Let me be very clear that this doesn't mean it should not be implemented, but that it seems as though you've spent an awful lot of time fighting for what would be a nearly inconsequential PvE buff instead of focusing your attention on the bigger issues and fighting to resolve those.

PvP Response

I'm not an avid PvPer, but what strikes me as potentially most problematic is how strong this could/would make Shadow on openers. Shadow is definitely seeing its share of nerfs, some deserved, some not, but I would be hesitant to advocate this change even in response.

Character/Discussion Response

I certainly applaud the, ah, force and verve with which you're pursuing this issue. However, what is very striking is how you respond to those who disagree with your assessment of the need/strength/appeal of this change.

An argument is strongest when it is unsullied by such fallacies as ad hominem attacks and hyperbole. I understand the desire to sensationalize and thus gain more attention/discussion/response. You clearly want to see your idea implemented, and that's fine. In fact, that's great.

By attacking dissenters, though, you're undermining your argument. Instead, it would behoove you to ignore what you perceive as baseless or asinine attacks; or, barring that, respond to them as you would a rational argument. Instead of mocking counters, quote where you've proven them wrong.

Asking people two fully read and essentially memorize (can you honestly expect a person to remember every single counter argument you've made in the course of 16 pages?) is also hurting your cause. It's great that you've consolidated many of the most relevant responses, but remember that it's still a lot to digest in a single sitting.

Finally, trying to incite a fight in your own thread over a topic that has no tangible relevance to your own is probably one of the worst things you can do. If you truly feel your suggestion is worthwhile, don't sabotage yourself by getting into a chest-puffing match. It doesn't make you look good or clever. It makes you seem like you care more about your own opinion than you do about helping Shadow.

Asking people two fully read and essentially memorize (can you honestly expect a person to remember every single counter argument you've made in the course of 16 pages?) is also hurting your cause. It's great that you've consolidated many of the most relevant responses, but remember that it's still a lot to digest in a single sitting.


Yea, this.
If this implementation will do very little to help the shadow specialization, implement it anyway!

We are hurting, and I will take anything at this moment in time. Why the high standard?

What's it gonna hurt if its so damn insignificant? Arguements like that are dead on arrival.

You're missing the point.

Tomorrow: you win. We get 1 SO / sec ooc. We see less than a 1% increase in our single target damage. You have spent all this energy championing the idea and Shadow is no better for it. Now what? Where do you go next?

02/13/2013 01:18 PMPosted by Dreamskull
They already have a resource generation out of combat implementaition.

No thank you. Just because Class A gets X doesn't mean Class B gets X too. That's homogenization and it's bad imo.
I didn't read the rest of the thread cause.. ain't nobody got time for that. If you know who I am, you'll probably realize that I have read and seen a whole lot of bull!@#$ posts and rants... Post #65 tops it all. You, sir, have some serious issues and quite frankly you seem delusional. You haven't got an inkling what Ghostcrawler and/or Blizzard does as far as class balance. It's always easy to do someone else's job when you don't have someone else's job.

Someone responds and says one word "agreed" and you type a half page rant about how they are throwing petty insults. What world do you actually live in?

I'd really like to say more, but honestly, I've posted too much already and the parts of this thread that I've wasted my life reading honestly isn't worth any of this attention. I'm all for fighting what you believe in and "fixing" a class that may be broke.. but you're doing it wrong and causing an uproar in the process. You won't get anywhere.
Prove me wrong, and then you'll have an arguement against the implementation.

These are petty arguements. Have all the good arguements been discredited/trashed?
you are your own argument against yourself.

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