Feral druid DPS help

Druid
So I got a raid tonight and I feel like my dps isn't up to par(as do my guild mates). I'm assuming it has something to do with how I handle my combo point usage and how often I keep refreshing my Rip and Savage Roar. When I'm going through and doing my thing I keep switching back and forth between refreshing Rip or Savage Roar even when they're duration isn't close to being ready because I'm already and 5 combo points and I don't know what to do with them because I know that if I use Ferocious Bite I'll not have enough time to get my combo points up to 5 to refresh Rip or Savage Roar. Should I just sit there with 5 combo points and keep spamming Shred till its time to refresh or what should I do?
You should be using ferocious bite with 3+ combo points, as long as both rake and rip bleeds are on your target. If there is about 5 seconds left on rip/rake, you should refresh them before carrying on. Always keep Savage Roar up (glyph helps). I use Tell Me When addon to tell me when my SR buff falls off me and i need to refresh it. Use Tigers Fury on CD, except if you know you have 40+ energy, it would be a waste. Otherwise, spam Shred to build up combo points, and spend ur first 5 point combo on putting rip up, then a 5 point savage roar, then Ferocious Bite after that. Feral dps is a very complicated "rotation" to learn. It took me a long time to figure out, and I'm always still learning.
And what about this whole "pooling energy" business I hear about. Is it a DPS loss to not do it?
The only reason I would pool energy is if I'm expecting an aoe segment of a fight, where then i can get a few Swipes off. The CD on Tigers Fury (gives you 60 energy on use, every 30 seconds) is enough energy to keep spamming shred while keeping your bleeds up.
Alright, thanks.
I'd suggest something a bit different, and not get in the habit of using FB with under 5 CP unless the target is under 25%.

If you continuously find yourself sitting at 5 CP with Rip and SR up with enough duration that you don't really want to refresh either of them, but not in a place where you could use FB and not lose uptime, then you probably do want to start pooling energy and stop spamming. Spamming shred is the wrong thing to do when learning feral, and breaking that habit is probably the best thing you can do at this point, as you're working off a priority list, and you're very likely to spam through Omen procs, or get yourself energy starved and have your uptimes suffer.

By pooling it, I mean try to stay around 60 or so energy, unless your TF is about to come off cooldown. Once you slow down and stop spamming, it will probably get easier...feral is mostly about waiting around doing nothing, or just bouncing around while you wait.

When my Rip and SR get to a point where their uptime is synched where they'll drop off about the same time, I just refresh SR with enough CP to get them separated again and carry on. So, try slowing down first, don't spam, and try to get your Rip and SR ticking at a rate where they won't drop off around the same time.
Alright, that does sound very helpful Fuzzybuddy. Thanks.
Pooling energy is a joke unless you're about to hit a huge amount of mobs that you can Swipe. No one cares about mobs anyways, your DPS during boss fights is what your guild will look for.

Feral rotation is hard enough without trying to pool energy, because unless you can pull it off flawlessly...you're just gonna sit there with extra energy.

The reason I say this is because most, if not all, end-game bosses require heavy movement which is good for us. If you pool energy at 60, when you're required to move around you're gonna sit at 100 energy which is bad because that's 3 or 4 shreds you're giving up.

Feral is extremely situational in that you have to decide constantly whether clipping is optimal because you're not going to be able to attack the boss for a bit, whether you can spend 5 points on a Ferocious Bite and have enough time to build up combo points for Rip, if you should spend 4 or 5 points on Savage Roar, etc.

My advice to you: switch out HotW for DoC. The passives are good, but if used correctly DoC is really nice. Use PS proc on Healing Touch then use Rip and Rake on boss. Or use Healing Touch on yourself right before you take out a ton of mobs and use Thrash. It's pretty hard though if you aren't used to it so I would practice on a dummy before trying it out in a raid.

As for your problem which I'm not sure people covered directly..I think your main problem is you have the notion that you can't use an ability until you have 5 combo points. This is far from the truth, if you can estimate how long it will take you to get points and match it with Rip, you'll theoretically never run into that problem. In other words:

Let's say Rip has 10 seconds left, you have 3 combo points and no TF. Well, you'll probably get the other 2 combo points before Rake and Rip go away, but you'll have to wait to use them becuase you won't be able to build up enough to get a 5 point Rip without having downtime. In this case, I would spend the 3 points on Savage Roar or FB (if you have 30+ seconds on SR) and then continue building points up. This way, you don't waste points, you benefit yourself by not spending points later on SR and you get a full Rip + Rake.

It's also important to try to get all of your bleeds lined up with buffs. I.E. Trinkets, SR, TF, NV, DoC, etc. If you have to wait less than three seconds to get bleeds + buffs, then wait. If not, try to catch the end of your buffs with the end of your bleeds so you can refresh them right before the buffs go away and not waste time keeping your buffs unused.
You could desync your roar and rip timers so they don't expire at the same time by prioritizing roar. Bite is a small DPS increase, if you're unsure I wouldn't risk using it and losing bleed uptime.

Look at how you are using cooldowns and consumables as well. Are you using an agility potion before the pull and during the fight? Are you using major cooldowns like berserk at the wrong time? Since you took Heart of the Wild, is it an AoE fight? If so, are you using hurricane to kill adds/pad meters?

Be flexible with your talents, some fights favor the AoE from HoTW, some favor the added burst from Nature's Vigil, and a some favor sustained damage from DoC. Being able to play all of them to some extent will help give you some flexibility on different encounters.
Don't listen to Sohra about not pooling energy.
Pooling energy is very important to feral dps.

Unlike what Sohra claims, if you learn to be patient and pool your energy, it actually makes everything much much easier (not harder) to maintain and refresh just as something is about to fall off every time. the reason people have trouble maintaining SR and rip is because when it comes time to refresh it, they cant because they have 0 energy and when they finally can its already fallen off for quite some time OR they try avoiding that scenario by clipping SR and Rip's timers. this is harder because not only do they have trouble maintaining up times, but theyre more focused on spamming shred instead of being calm and calculating which actually helps a lot.

pooling energy will not lose you any dps so long as you dont let it cap at 100. I would actually recommend pooling to 85 instead of 60 because when it comes time that you need a quick 5 combo points real fast, you can do it on command. you may be thinking that it's a dps loss because youre just sitting there doing white damage and not shredding, but it's not. as long as its not capping at 100, none of that energy is wasted and youll actually be shreding about the same amount over time in order to keep you under 100 energy.

The only time you dont pool energy is if youre about to use tigers fury.

also remember to reapply rake/rip during tigers fury if you can as that 15% extra damage applies to those dots if you apply them during that window which is very nice.

and yes if you have 5cp, and SR and Rip have long times on them, you mind as well just FB to dump the combo points.

one thing that Sohra mentioned that is good advice though is you dont have to worry too much about needing 5cps all the time. if you have 2-3 cps that you need to waste for w/e reason you can just use savage roar as all it does is effect its duration and not its damage.

I recommend getting the addon Droodfocus. it's amazing, and then go practice on a target dummy.
02/05/2013 08:52 PMPosted by Chikatree
Unlike what Sohra claims, if you learn to be patient and pool your energy, it actually makes everything much much easier (not harder) to maintain and refresh just as something is about to fall off every time. the reason people have trouble maintaining SR and rip is because when it comes time to refresh it, they cant because they have 0 energy and when they finally can its already fallen off for quite some time OR they try avoiding that scenario by clipping SR and Rip's timers.


That's the only thing that pooling helps. If you aren't dumb about the way you spend combo points then you should never run into that problem. Besides, as I explained before...pooling energy is a DPS loss whether you'd like to admit it or not.
02/06/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Sohra
pooling energy is a DPS loss whether you'd like to admit it or not.

Oh, I'd like to hear this, please explain.
02/06/2013 06:33 PMPosted by Chikatree
pooling energy is a DPS loss whether you'd like to admit it or not.

Oh, I'd like to hear this, please explain.


I already explained. A lot of end-game mechanics require movement and have a lot CC in them compared to earlier expansions. If you pool energy, but happen to get caught in a CC and/or have to run out in order to avoid damage...you basically wasted two shreds (2-4 combo points) which in turn means you have downtime which is bad.

Now you'll probably say, "Well, time your attacks better". If you're gonna say that, then I could just say...manage your combo points better so you never have downtime on bleeds/buffs.

Pooling energy feels nicer just because you're attacking for what seems like more of the time, but in all honesty...it's not more efficient. Either way, it just comes down to preference and which way is better for the individual. I'm just saying, pooling energy doesn't work for me because it feels like I'm wasting energy while I'm running around dodging crap.
I personally prefer to pool energy on boss fights, just because it gives me a bit of time between my shreds where I can check over my buffs/debuffs, as well as look at the situation of the raid in general, and then I feel I can make a more informed decision from there. When you pool, just keep an eye on your energy (I pool to 80), and make sure it doesn't go over that while you're watching your rip/rake/SR timers. Pooling also helps me see different boss mechanics, because I'm not constantly taking a look at my energy bar to see if I'll have enough for my next SR or Rip. However, it really comes down to personal preference, because I don't notice a significant DPS increase or loss either way.
02/07/2013 09:45 AMPosted by Sohra

Oh, I'd like to hear this, please explain.


I already explained. A lot of end-game mechanics require movement and have a lot CC in them compared to earlier expansions. If you pool energy, but happen to get caught in a CC and/or have to run out in order to avoid damage...you basically wasted two shreds (2-4 combo points) which in turn means you have downtime which is bad.

Now you'll probably say, "Well, time your attacks better". If you're gonna say that, then I could just say...manage your combo points better so you never have downtime on bleeds/buffs.

Pooling energy feels nicer just because you're attacking for what seems like more of the time, but in all honesty...it's not more efficient. Either way, it just comes down to preference and which way is better for the individual. I'm just saying, pooling energy doesn't work for me because it feels like I'm wasting energy while I'm running around dodging crap.


As with most anything in life, it's situational; however, if you always operate on an empty energy bar, and that works well, or even better for you, or even simply feels better, then that's how you should play.

That said, anyone starting out trying to pool energy instead of sitting bone dry all the time is definitely going to waste some; it takes practice, like most things, so that you know how to mitigate capping out on movement intense fights, or on strings of omen procs.

There isn't a singular right way to do it, but most people who have been playing feral for years find it more efficient to pool their energy and not spend every bit as they get it.
If you arent pooling youre going to be energy starved when it comes time that you need the energy the most. Feral has amazing mobility, you shouldnt be off target very long if at all, and if you know the fight then you know when certain things are going to happen and can then adjust accordingly for those very specific short instances. Ideally youll want to pool to have as much control of your uptimes as possible or face having no energy when you need it.
02/05/2013 10:43 AMPosted by Animorphed
So I got a raid tonight and I feel like my dps isn't up to par(as do my guild mates). I'm assuming it has something to do with how I handle my combo point usage and how often I keep refreshing my Rip and Savage Roar. When I'm going through and doing my thing I keep switching back and forth between refreshing Rip or Savage Roar even when they're duration isn't close to being ready because I'm already and 5 combo points and I don't know what to do with them because I know that if I use Ferocious Bite I'll not have enough time to get my combo points up to 5 to refresh Rip or Savage Roar. Should I just sit there with 5 combo points and keep spamming Shred till its time to refresh or what should I do?


i usually put thrash up to keep from energy capping assuming it wasnt just used by a ooc proc. if you are far enough out from refreshing rip/sr that you would energy cap even after thrash, you probably had enough time to fb and get those 5 cp back.. and this is all assuming TF is down. you can also switch to mangle if you need a quick couple cp's to get rip back up

energy pooling becomes a huge deal when/if you decide to learn the DoC rotation.
02/07/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Anivar
energy pooling becomes a huge deal when/if you decide to learn the DoC rotation.


For sure, such a complicated rotation if you aren't used to timing your buffs.
02/07/2013 09:45 AMPosted by Sohra
I already explained. A lot of end-game mechanics require movement and have a lot CC in them compared to earlier expansions. If you pool energy, but happen to get caught in a CC and/or have to run out in order to avoid damage...you basically wasted two shreds (2-4 combo points) which in turn means you have downtime which is bad.

You may have explained, however you are still incorrect. It is clear you do not have a real understanding of how the Feral DPS priority works. What makes Feral work is the application of bleeds at the right time as well as managing SR. Mindlessly spamming Shred as soon as you have energy isn't efficent. A good example of why pooling is wise:

Rake is going to fall off in 5 seconds. You are at 20 energy. In 2 second you will have the energy to Shred. Rereshing Rake early is a DPS loss as you would lose a tick of the Dot. If you Shred you will not have enough energy to Refresh Rake in time. In this case it is better to pool. You will still be able to shred after Rake is refreshed and you will have spent the same energy for the same number of attacks, just in a different order.

With how slow energy builds you will need a lot of time off target to energy cap. The energy required for 2 Sheds would mean 8 seconds off target. If you are CC'd you are likely going to energy cap regardless of what you were at. And while you are CC'd the damage that 1 or 2 Shreds will have been healed anyway. PVE is different as you will get a warning about mechanics and thus will not be sitting for 8 seconds doing nothing.

It is all about order of your attacks, not the speed which you mash your button at that gives us power.

not the speed which you mash your button at


lol I thought of DK's

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