So how the heck does the LFR work?

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
02/04/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Hyjinx
The problem here is that you equate "more fun to play" with "I get more loot."
Not that directly. The game is based around gear as a reward for completing tasks. You do quests, you get gear. You get honor/conquest/justice/points for gear. You kill bosses, you get gear. This poor LFR loot system is like cheating players out of a reward. Still stands, pick any game with a reward system for completing something and slap on a 15% of getting that reward. Players will complain about it. As you see lately.

02/04/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Maybe not, but Blizzard can't design the game as if your $15 is better than another person's $15.
Do you assume I'm the only one with this complaint? It's not just my subscription but many others. My point still stands, Blizzard says it tries to listen to its player base. It could look over this topic and give it better attention. They've changed the loot system in the past for the better. They can continue to tweak it here.
I just find it funny how 9/10 of "improve the LFR loot system" arguments boil down to "make it give out more loot"

02/04/2013 10:04 AMPosted by Wrongway
The game is based around gear as a reward for completing tasks. You do quests, you get gear. You get honor/conquest/justice/points for gear.


The gearing process can't always be 1:1. Like any MMO on the market, RNG must exist. JP and VP were created as systems to help with RNG, not circumvent it.

02/04/2013 10:04 AMPosted by Wrongway
You kill bosses, you get gear. This poor LFR loot system is like cheating players out of a reward.


So when you clear a dungeon you automatically got gear? Oh wait, I automatically get VP and gold.. sounds familiar.. Oh! you mean that when I zone into a normal raid and kill an end boss I'm guaranteed to get gear? No, that doesn't sound right either..

Seems like you're grasping for straws, RNG has always been a part of the gearing process. The only difference in LFR is that you don't see other people's gear dropping. Blizzard has ruled that this effect of the new system is better than the consequence of letting players see the gear being awarded. Deal.
02/04/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Captnronn
I just find it funny how 9/10 of "improve the LFR loot system" arguments boil down to "make it give out more loot"
9/10 Idk. My suggestion wouldn't be to give more loot. Just to be smarter about the loot given. Look what they did with quest gear rewards.

The rest of your argument substantiates the problem with RNG. It does not benefit the player. It benefits the company. And yes. You do get gear when you kill a normal raid boss. Is it the gear you wanted? That's the other problem.
02/04/2013 10:04 AMPosted by Wrongway
Not that directly. The game is based around gear as a reward for completing tasks. You do quests, you get gear. You get honor/conquest/justice/points for gear. You kill bosses, you get gear. This poor LFR loot system is like cheating players out of a reward. Still stands, pick any game with a reward system for completing something and slap on a 15% of getting that reward. Players will complain about it. As you see lately.


But the LFR loot system isn't poor. Players who do it consistently get rewarded.

Players will complain about anything, so players complaining about the system doesn't really mean anything.

Most of those complaints are stupid, anyway. The vast majority are "WAAAAH I didn't get Item X" or "WAAAAH I didn't get loot after X Bosses" with the latter usually being a blatant lie.

02/04/2013 10:04 AMPosted by Wrongway
Do you assume I'm the only one with this complaint? It's not just my subscription but many others. My point still stands, Blizzard says it tries to listen to its player base. It could look over this topic and give it better attention. They've changed the loot system in the past for the better. They can continue to tweak it here.


Show me a tweak that doesn't boil down to "I get more loot faster."

MMOs - and some other games - are effort vs. reward. The more effort you put in, the more reward you get. LFR works fine in that system. For one thing, it's VERY easy, so the rewards shouldn't be the greatest. Also, the more you run LFR the more loot you'll get.
02/04/2013 11:36 AMPosted by Hyjinx
But the LFR loot system isn't poor. Players who do it consistently get rewarded.
If you are guaranteed to receive useful loot 1 out of 5 runs then we can have the discussion. But fact remains there is no guarantee. Is there an 85% possibility to never win? If the 15% chance drop rate is true than any players possibility to never win holds true. That's RNG.

Players will complain about anything, so players complaining about the system doesn't really mean anything.

Most of those complaints are stupid, anyway. The vast majority are "WAAAAH I didn't get Item X" or "WAAAAH I didn't get loot after X Bosses" with the latter usually being a blatant lie.
But it does mean something. It means they have an issue with the current system. Nothing you've said so far has made a valid point. You're attacking people for voicing their opinion without giving any substance of your own.

Show me a tweak that doesn't boil down to "I get more loot faster."

MMOs - and some other games - are effort vs. reward. The more effort you put in, the more reward you get. LFR works fine in that system. For one thing, it's VERY easy, so the rewards shouldn't be the greatest. Also, the more you run LFR the more loot you'll get.
Again I point to the quest reward system change. Smarter loot reward would equal satisfied players. It's not more loot these players want. It's useful loot reward at a reasonable rate. More loot can just mean more junk loot.

LFR being easy is subjective.
02/04/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Wrongway
If you are guaranteed to receive useful loot 1 out of 5 runs then we can have the discussion. But fact remains there is no guarantee. Is there an 85% possibility to never win? If the 15% chance drop rate is true than any players possibility to never win holds true. That's RNG.


Find me someone that hasn't won any loot in 1 month of full LFR clears.

02/04/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Wrongway
But it does mean something. It means they have an issue with the current system. Nothing you've said so far has made a valid point. You're attacking people for voicing their opinion without giving any substance of your own.


It means jack. Any system will have people that complain about it. The old one did. This one does. A new one would.

I'm attacking baseless opinions, yes. I'm also attacking the liars.

02/04/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Wrongway
Again I point to the quest reward system change. Smarter loot reward would equal satisfied players. It's not more loot these players want. It's useful loot reward at a reasonable rate. More loot can just mean more junk loot.


Half the quest loot is still junk loot. The quest reward system is pretty boring, really. Often I'll get 3 or 4 of the same item slot at the same item level. It's not useful getting my 3rd ilvl 399 necklace.

Hey look, I complained about the quest reward system. Must mean the system needs to be changed.

02/04/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Wrongway
LFR being easy is subjective.


No, it's objective. In comparison to the other raiding modes, LFR is easy.
02/04/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Wrongway
Is there an 85% possibility to never win? If the 15% chance drop rate is true than any players possibility to never win holds true. That's RNG.
I don't think you understand what those words mean.

An "85% possibility to never win" would mean that over the lifetime of the T14 LFR, we would see that of the whole LFR population, the number of people who never see an item drop approaches 85%. That is an incredibly silly statement and is undoubtedly false.

On the flipside, if the per boss droprate is 15% (as speculated), then given 16 bosses, the cumulative probability that you get at least one item over those 16 bosses is 92.5%. 92.5% chance to get something to drop out of lfr each week as long as you do all 5 parts is pretty nice. I'd even be interested in seeing how that compares to the odds that over 16 bosses on normal/heroic in 10m that you see something potentially usable (a similar comparison).

Will that item be useful? Who knows! That is an entirely different question.

Again I point to the quest reward system change. Smarter loot reward would equal satisfied players. It's not more loot these players want. It's useful loot reward at a reasonable rate. More loot can just mean more junk loot.


Bold for emphasis. This is a subjective statement - what is a "reasonable rate"? Rather than bicker about what you are saying to each other, give concise feedback about what you think is better. Define your idea of a reasonable rate.

How long should it take for a player to be "bis" in LFR gear? What happens when you are "bis" - what are you going to do after that?

LFR is not designed to be a progression path into normal or heroic raiding, so when T15 LFR is released, are you going to do it all over again? How long should it take then?

Clearly you are unsatisfied, so give numbers and ranges. People are going to jump on your back on these forums because everyone likes to use words that do just amount to "I want more things faster." They don't elaborate or flesh out ideas. I realize that I am using sweeping statements here, but I do not think they are especially outrageous. Try instead to elaborate and compare it to LFR right now - you say you want a more intelligent loot system - why? And how? Should LFR ever give duplicate items? What if you're an enchanter?

Say bosses only gave you the items you wanted and would never give duplicate items, but all the drop rates were the same - then you (the player base) would get to the point where you are only getting bags of gold faster (which is less fun, no one would disagree there), you would queue other LFRs that you no longer need faster, driving up the queue times for every LFR and making everything take even longer than it does now. Do you have a solution that would keep the LFR queues from skyrocketing? Should there be an incentive to run LFRs that you have already "completed"?
02/04/2013 12:04 PMPosted by Wrongway
It's not more loot these players want. It's useful loot reward at a reasonable rate.


That's what valor is for. Blizzard has their reasons for keeping the direct drops random, even though some people get unlucky and complain (and even more complain because they don't understand, even though their luck hasn't been that bad).

Ultimately, if you don't want to deal with the randomness of high end gear, you don't have to. There are 10 other classes you could play, or you could try the other faction (there's even an achievement for it), you could do pet battles or just spend all your time gathering/fishing/cooking/crafting to make money.
02/04/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Find me someone that hasn't won any loot in 1 month of full LFR clears.
This doesn't make a sane point for the grinding we do. Some players hate grinding. It's mentioned up and down these forums.

It means jack. Any system will have people that complain about it. The old one did. This one does. A new one would.

I'm attacking baseless opinions, yes. I'm also attacking the liars.
Are you arguing Blizzard should never listen to its players? That we should still be playing vanilla wow? The feedback helps Blizzard progress the game. You can attack liars but you haven't convinced me that the status quo is working for the players best enjoyment. It's still designed to throttle back rewards and in an unintelligent way.

Half the quest loot is still junk loot. The quest reward system is pretty boring, really. Often I'll get 3 or 4 of the same item slot at the same item level. It's not useful getting my 3rd ilvl 399 necklace.

Hey look, I complained about the quest reward system. Must mean the system needs to be changed.
You can't argue the quest loot is not smarter than it was before. I'm asking the LFR loot to be given the same attention. You can have an opinion about quest loot but am I going to respond by calling you a liar or say your point of view warrants no attention at all? No. That's where you and I differ.

02/04/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Hyjinx
No, it's objective. In comparison to the other raiding modes, LFR is easy.
You only said it's "very easy." You didn't specify to what. If to players then that's subjective. If compared to normal raid then, correct, that's objective.
15% seems ok for each boss per week., that's similar to what regular raids experience with useful loot. I remember killing Omnotron about 8 times (2 months) before our resto druid got his feathery shoulders from him, then 2 weeks later he got the t11 shoulders from al'akair or cho'gall, because the only thing that would drop were the mage/druid tokens. Random is random, that's the way the games been designed for years. It can be very frustrating but our guild used to raid to kill really big bosses and have epic fights, we made sure gear was secondary, granted we were very casual.

Is this the best way to give gear? Maybe, maybe not. But everyone has to realize that if gear and item level are the only reason you play this game and aren't in a raiding guild then it'll be hard for you to get the best gear. If you just want to play the content and have cool fights with lots and lots of people then I think LFR is great. It lets you see the lore and bosses with out having to have the best gear or worrying about being in a raiding guild.
02/04/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Wrongway
You didn't specify to what.


Let's say, tying your shoes.

It's objectively easier than tying your shoes, because if you just stand there and expect your shoes to tie themselves, it won't happen, but if you just stand there staring at 24 people hitting a boss, it will die.

Note* If you tell someone else to tie your shoe, you've put in more effort than lfr requires.
02/04/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Wrongway
This doesn't make a sane point for the grinding we do. Some players hate grinding. It's mentioned up and down these forums.


That's an entirely different argument than the one you've been presenting up until now.

Also, if you don't like grinding, don't play MMOs. I'd like to point out too that WoW has less of a grind than it did when it launched and has less of a grind than any other MMO.

Take the leveling process. In EQ, it took literally months of playing to reach max level. When WoW launched, it took me a month, I think, to reach 60 for the first time (without guides and whatnot). In Mists, if I really put my mind to it, I could go from 1-90 in a week.

02/04/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Wrongway
Are you arguing Blizzard should never listen to its players? That we should still be playing vanilla wow? The feedback helps Blizzard progress the game. You can attack liars but you haven't convinced me that the status quo is working for the players best enjoyment. It's still designed to throttle back rewards and in an unintelligent way.


I'm arguing Blizzard shouldn't listen to lies and/or stupidity, yes.

Players' best enjoyment? Define that phrase for me, would you? Most of the people complaining seem to think instant gratification would be their best enjoyment.

But then you have to ask yourself whether that's a sustainable model, and the answer is no.

02/04/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Wrongway
You can't argue the quest loot is not smarter than it was before. I'm asking the LFR loot to be given the same attention. You can have an opinion about quest loot but am I going to respond by calling you a liar or say your point of view warrants no attention at all? No. That's where you and I differ.


Likewise, you can't argue that LFR isn't smarter than it was before.

You can't respond by calling me a liar because I wasn't lying. There really are multiples - sometimes 3 or 4 - of the same item at the same item level from quest rewards. Also, you can almost invalidate the entire system by spending maybe a few thousand gold and buying ilvl 415 crafted blue gear or BoE drops.

However, the guys I'm calling liars are actually lying. You have people saying they haven't won any loot at all who are wearing LFR gear. You have people saying they haven't won items in the past few weeks whose activity feeds show them receiving loot during that time period. Etc, etc, etc.

Neither system is perfect, and you're free to offer feedback. But the feedback has to be based on rational and reasonable arguments, not on lies and exaggerations.

There's a thread I just commented on like 10 minutes ago where a Hunter goes on an apesh!t rant about coins and how bad the LFR system is. The guy is sitting at a 483 item level and has less than a month's worth of both HoF and Terrace done, with about 8 weeks of MSV done. Less than two months total out of a six+ month tier schedule and he's geared enough to move on when the next tier releases. And he's still complaining. Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me Blizzard should listen to him? What kind of game are you after?

You might say he's arguing objectively - that is, he's decrying a bad system regardless of whether or not it works for him specifically. I might agree if not for two points. One, his post includes personal and subjective experience. Two, I haven't yet seen ANYBODY that is getting screwed by this system. Of course there are different definitions of getting screwed, but reasonable men can agree on reasonable numbers.

Here's my definition of getting screwed - a person who, doing LFR consistently while taking advantage of things such as Valor and crafted gear (in other words, someone who is playing the game and using the systems as they are intended to be used), is NOT ready for the next tier of content.

Find me such a person and we'll talk. Or convince me that my definition is somehow flawed.

02/04/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Wrongway
You only said it's "very easy." You didn't specify to what. If to players then that's subjective. If compared to normal raid then, correct, that's objective.


Maybe you should ask for clarification instead of jumping to conclusions, hm?
On the flipside, if the per boss droprate is 15% (as speculated), then given 16 bosses, the cumulative probability that you get at least one item over those 16 bosses is 92.5%. 92.5% chance to get something to drop out of lfr each week as long as you do all 5 parts is pretty nice. I'd even be interested in seeing how that compares to the odds that over 16 bosses on normal/heroic in 10m that you see something potentially usable (a similar comparison).
Idk if the 15% drop rate is true or not. I do agree that a 92.5% chance to get something from LFR is pretty nice. My problem is with the dismal randomness. The system got smarter when they changed it to what it is now. Open roll LFR was a problem. They fixed it. But now it's no longer player vs player over loot. It's player vs game. It's smart enough to recognize you're a plate wearer but it's still not smart enough to recognize what you've won already or what you are currently wearing. I have no problem that only a certain amount of loot should be dropped per boss. A system recognizing what players "need" coupled with the restrictive number of drops per boss will take care of the reasonable rate issue.

How long should it take for a player to be "bis" in LFR gear? What happens when you are "bis" - what are you going to do after that?

LFR is not designed to be a progression path into normal or heroic raiding, so when T15 LFR is released, are you going to do it all over again? How long should it take then?
Whatever a players ceiling is in raiding I hear the same complaints on all 3 levels. It's the grinding. I don't speak for others but when I'm done getting the gear I still play but for fun instead of just for the gear chase. I heard it in Wrath when there was 10 & 25 man separate raid versions and that is people burnt out chasing BiS. It's my opinion Blizzard can avoid player burnout by helping them get back to the point where they don't play to grind relentlessly and instead play for fun. Since it's a gear-centric game I play for better gear to have an easier replay experience. The 1st time completing a challenge is an accomplishment. But then I want the luxury of going back and smashing it to pieces.

02/04/2013 12:50 PMPosted by Leotharius
Clearly you are unsatisfied, so give numbers and ranges. People are going to jump on your back on these forums because everyone likes to use words that do just amount to "I want more things faster." They don't elaborate or flesh out ideas. I realize that I am using sweeping statements here, but I do not think they are especially outrageous. Try instead to elaborate and compare it to LFR right now - you say you want a more intelligent loot system - why? And how? Should LFR ever give duplicate items? What if you're an enchanter?
I didn't want to hijack the thread. At first I just wanted to argue a players right to voice a complaint and not have to feel ridiculed into believing he/she doesn't have a valid point or that they're just whining and to suck it up (like some of the responses I've read). I found myself this far in, I'll answer this as well. The loot system has been getting better through time. It did with quest rewards. It did with raids since the beginning. And I believe this LFR system can get better. The progressive nature in this games development is what keeps me playing. It's not just some game set in stone.

Look at the problem Diablo faced. Another gear-centric game. Minus the obvious new content WoW pumps out, they do have a similar problem and that's the grind for better gear. Also besides the pay to win scheme. You had to get better gear to progress through the difficulty stages. My experience was reaching the last difficulty setting and not being able to play successfully past act II without getting better gear. Which dropped in the later acts. And I couldn't get better gear without grinding. Grinding for more gear or grinding for gold.

Coming back to grinding. Grinding in PVP you know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. You're working towards something and you know you're going to get it. Grinding PVE raid has a chance to not win anything. Chance to win loot you don't need. Basically a small chance to reach the gear goal I'm capable of if not for that damning RNG.

I would offer that the current system still drop the limited amount per boss. LFR still reward directly to the player and not the raid. But maybe the gear selected be on a basis that goes through items in an equal manner instead of randomly chosen and possibly duplicated for a very long time. Or could the token drop system of ToC work again? Tbh I would rather see gear upgrades be more dependent on crafting. Bring crafting boe's into the spotlight and the materials needed for new gear be dropped off new bosses. Small steps though. Tweak LFR.
That's an entirely different argument than the one you've been presenting up until now.

Also, if you don't like grinding, don't play MMOs. I'd like to point out too that WoW has less of a grind than it did when it launched and has less of a grind than any other MMO.

Take the leveling process. In EQ, it took literally months of playing to reach max level. When WoW launched, it took me a month, I think, to reach 60 for the first time (without guides and whatnot). In Mists, if I really put my mind to it, I could go from 1-90 in a week.
The problem with RNG loot is the inherent grinding to it.

You're right about WoW having less of a grind than some other MMO's. WoW has gotten better since inception but should it stop here? Is this the pinnacle of what it can be?

Leveling is a reward in itself. You see the progress and are experiencing it. At max level the new reward becomes the gear upgrades. That's why we're having this discussion. The reward process for new gear is not completely satisfactory IMO.

I'm arguing Blizzard shouldn't listen to lies and/or stupidity, yes.

Players' best enjoyment? Define that phrase for me, would you? Most of the people complaining seem to think instant gratification would be their best enjoyment.

But then you have to ask yourself whether that's a sustainable model, and the answer is no.
Player's best enjoyment vs sustainable business model. Blizzard is either making a game for player's enjoyment or to dangle a carrot at the end of the gear-upgrade-stick to keep players subscribing. I'm not inferring change LFR now or else Blizzard must be some sort of evil corporation. Only that they've listened to players in the past and maybe this is a topic they should listen to as well. Loot system has a history of progressing. It can progress further.
02/04/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Wrongway
Player's best enjoyment vs sustainable business model. Blizzard is either making a game for player's enjoyment or to dangle a carrot at the end of the gear-upgrade-stick to keep players subscribing. I'm not inferring change LFR now or else Blizzard must be some sort of evil corporation. Only that they've listened to players in the past and maybe this is a topic they should listen to as well. Loot system has a history of progressing. It can progress further.


The problem is that you can't satisfy people who play for loot. Either you give it to them and they leave, or you don't and they complain.

Once again:

Here's my definition of getting screwed - a person who, doing LFR consistently while taking advantage of things such as Valor and crafted gear (in other words, someone who is playing the game and using the systems as they are intended to be used), is NOT ready for the next tier of content.

Find me such a person and we'll talk. Or convince me that my definition is somehow flawed.


02/04/2013 02:14 PMPosted by Wrongway
Look at the problem Diablo faced. Another gear-centric game. Minus the obvious new content WoW pumps out, they do have a similar problem and that's the grind for better gear. Also besides the pay to win scheme. You had to get better gear to progress through the difficulty stages. My experience was reaching the last difficulty setting and not being able to play successfully past act II without getting better gear. Which dropped in the later acts. And I couldn't get better gear without grinding. Grinding for more gear or grinding for gold.


Diablo went too far in the RNG direction and not far enough on stat balance. You can't really compare the two - WoW has a far more streamlined loot system in that gear doesn't come with random stats and, by and large, stats are equal. Or at the very least, you're unable to completely manipulate your gear to get the best stats. Diablo, on the other hand, made stats nearly completely random and some stats were and still remain the absolute best choice. Diablo - in the earlier patches - also bottlenecked you. Unless you got really lucky at the start of the game, leveled very quickly, and took advantage of game breaking bugs, then you were SoL on gear and gold.

WoW is nowhere near that bad. I say once again that I haven't yet seen anyone be screwed over by the LFR loot system. People get screwed over in the Diablo loot system all the time - myself included. Probably why I haven't logged on in weeks.
I really struggle with the argumnent that gear should be given out faster so that a player can come back and enjoy the content without worrying about gear. If this mythical character that doesnt care about gear truly exists why is he not enjoying the experience now even more because not only does he get to do the thing he enjoys but occasionally they get given a present too in the form of gear.
02/04/2013 10:32 AMPosted by Wrongway
My suggestion wouldn't be to give more loot. Just to be smarter about the loot given.


You do understand that "being smarter about loot" usually equates to "getting the piece I want" which can be construed as "giving more loot."

If you'd like to play semantics, 9/10 arguments about the LFR loot system boil down to "let me gear faster" and not "let's make the system fair for everyone"
02/05/2013 04:18 PMPosted by Captnronn
You do understand that "being smarter about loot" usually equates to "getting the piece I want" which can be construed as "giving more loot."
All technically true but my distinction is you can give me 5 pieces of the same plate chest piece. That is more loot but it is not a smart system.
02/06/2013 12:00 AMPosted by Wrongway
You do understand that "being smarter about loot" usually equates to "getting the piece I want" which can be construed as "giving more loot."
All technically true but my distinction is you can give me 5 pieces of the same plate chest piece. That is more loot but it is not a smart system.


So you're asking to be showered in loot but with the possibility of duplicate loot still intact?

Still equates to "getting more loot" because if you're showered in it then you have a higher chance of getting what you need faster.
01/31/2013 12:19 AMPosted by Triplea
Currently the main fault with the system is that it gives u loot that you may or may not have. One way to fix it is by simply having tokens, not a chest token or a pants token.. simply universal tokens that you can use for anything you want. The vendors should have all the gear that drops from bosses so you can choose whatever piece you want with the token you received.


Yeah! They could drop, say, badges or something. Badges of justice. I think this system would work out great.

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