What Ilvl is required for TOT Normal?

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Hello all.

My Raid group is in a casual guild. We raid every Tuesdays and Thursdays from 7pm to 10pm Server. Our average item level is 484, and we are still working on Will of the Emperor and Garalon.(we haven't touched ToES). Our Average DPS pulls 55-65k.

The fact that Blizzard is throwing us dirty casuals under the bus astounds me. The new LFR gear of 502ilvl will make us raiding the other areas obsolete.(Casuals can only focus raid time on so much and we like CURRENT content). So that brings me to the question of:

With 5.2 coming along, does that mean that my guild has to stop raiding and start doing LFR? or can we hop into ToT Normal with an average ilvl of 484 and low end DPS of 55-65k?
Hello all.

My Raid group is in a casual guild. We raid every Tuesdays and Thursdays from 7pm to 10pm Server. Our average item level is 484, and we are still working on Will of the Emperor and Garalon.(we haven't touched ToES). Our Average DPS pulls 55-65k.

The fact that Blizzard is throwing us dirty casuals under the bus astounds me. The new LFR gear of 502ilvl will make us raiding the other areas obsolete.(Casuals can only focus raid time on so much and we like CURRENT content). So that brings me to the question of:

With 5.2 coming along, does that mean that my guild has to stop raiding and start doing LFR? or can we hop into ToT Normal with an average ilvl of 484 and low end DPS of 55-65k?


You will not be able to do Throne of Thunder (or, for that matter, most of the bosses in T14) with that level of DPS. Blaming Blizzard for that, however, is just silly, as that DPS is drastically under where it should be for your item level. If your raid doesn't put out appropriate numbers for your gear you are always going to be behind on clearing content.

What I would do, if I was your raid group, is work on T14 once T15 LFR comes out. Your raid can vastly outgear T14 and hopefully progress through it once you are carpeted in T15 LFR epics and T14 normals have been nerfed, so your group can earn a title and possibly even do some heroic modes if your numbers improve, then move on to T15 normals.

Your other options are to gear up in T15 LFR and work to improve your group's output relative to their gear and progress in T15, or stay at the same level of underperforming and get smashed by the first brick wall in T15 normals.
1. Stop using the word "casual" as a pseudonym for "bad". My guild raids for the same amount of days as yours for only an additional two hours and we are 10/16 H.

2. Its not Blizzard's fault that it has taken you 4+ months to get only 7/6 N.
02/03/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Arpandaday
1. Stop using the word "casual" as a pseudonym for "bad".


I believe he's using casual in the sense that he and his team don't actually care about paying attention heavily during raid time, and prefer a more laid back raiding scene.

Whereas you seem more of a softcore. Of course, the only difference between you and the hardcore people is that you prefer to slug out wiping over 6 months of progression versus doing it all in the first 3 weeks and then raiding for 6 hours a week to clear content.
5.2 is coming along, but it's not coming tomorrow or even next week.

Relax, keep raiding, and see where you actually are in 5.2.
I believe he's using casual in the sense that he and his team don't actually care about paying attention heavily during raid time, and prefer a more laid back raiding scene.


In that case I think his raid team will be delighted to run T14 normal content they haven't cleared while vastly overgearing it with T15 LFR gear. It's new stuff that you and a bunch of your chill bros can smash pretty handily (except when someone blows up the raid on Un'sok).
The fact that Blizzard is throwing us dirty casuals under the bus astounds me. The new LFR gear of 502ilvl will make us raiding the other areas obsolete.(Casuals can only focus raid time on so much and we like CURRENT content). So that brings me to the question of:

With 5.2 coming along, does that mean that my guild has to stop raiding and start doing LFR? or can we hop into ToT Normal with an average ilvl of 484 and low end DPS of 55-65k?
The intention is for guilds currently on a slower pace will finish out T14 raiding along with T15 LFR in order to gear up for T15 normal. If your DPS is so low and you're having so much trouble with T14 normal, why do you think you should get into T15 easily?
Do we really have much solid information about the ToT bosses yet? It might be the sort of tier where the first boss is a huge gear-check, or it might be the sort of tier where the first couple bosses are easy and then there's a big gear-check. Just wander in and see how you do, if it's a huge brick wall just keep on keeping on with T14.

I don't see how casuals are being "thrown under the bus" when the most casual content ever (LFR) is going to allow you to gear up, get through T14 easier, and speed up your progress into T15.
The fact that Blizzard is throwing us dirty casuals under the bus astounds me. The new LFR gear of 502ilvl will make us raiding the other areas obsolete.(Casuals can only focus raid time on so much and we like CURRENT content). So that brings me to the question of:

With 5.2 coming along, does that mean that my guild has to stop raiding and start doing LFR? or can we hop into ToT Normal with an average ilvl of 484 and low end DPS of 55-65k?


I doubt you'll even finish HoF with dps like that. The gear from the new LFR would do you guys a lot of good. You don't have to drop everything and move on to ToT once it comes out, either.

I'm on a pretty casual team too. Still on Garalon but honestly I can't wait for ToT. We have already seen the content thanks to LFR, and i'm ready for a change in scenery anyways.
As long as you keep saying casuality is your problem at not your DPS doing Dragonsoul numbers, you're going to have issues progressing in "current" content.
I believe he's using casual in the sense that he and his team don't actually care about paying attention heavily during raid time, and prefer a more laid back raiding scene.


In that case I think his raid team will be delighted to run T14 normal content they haven't cleared while vastly overgearing it with T15 LFR gear. It's new stuff that you and a bunch of your chill bros can smash pretty handily (except when someone blows up the raid on Un'sok).


Sooooo much this.

02/03/2013 02:04 PMPosted by Asane
As long as you keep saying casuality is your problem at not your DPS doing Dragonsoul numbers, you're going to have issues progressing in "current" content.


And a lot more this.

Again, being "casual" has nothing to do with your progress or your personal DPS numbers, and there is nothing Blizzard can do minus nerfing the **** out of content (THANK YOU BLIZZ FOR NOT NERFING T14 TO THE GROUND) to help people who cannot help themselves.
Do we really have much solid information about the ToT bosses yet? It might be the sort of tier where the first boss is a huge gear-check, or it might be the sort of tier where the first couple bosses are easy and then there's a big gear-check. Just wander in and see how you do, if it's a huge brick wall just keep on keeping on with T14.

I don't see how casuals are being "thrown under the bus" when the most casual content ever (LFR) is going to allow you to gear up, get through T14 easier, and speed up your progress into T15.


Other than seeing the mechanics through PTR testing, its basically impossible to know what the boss difficulties will be. It's so much based on tuning, though mechanics do matter of course. (Dark Animus seems fun) I mean, many LFR bosses just have reduced damage with very few to no changes mechanics wise. Like Stone Guard. That's all it takes to make a fight faceroll.

First boss Jin'rohk which I watched on the PTR seems to not necessarily be a gear check but one where when you out gear it you don't have to be perfect on the mechanics.
OP: it sounds like your group needs to pick up the slack, or else realize they're LFR raiders who will dabble in normal modes, not raiders who can jump right into normal modes.
many LFR bosses just have reduced damage with very few to no changes mechanics wise. Like Stone Guard. That's all it takes to make a fight faceroll.


There is a huge change to the mechanics of Stone Guard in LFR versus normal. If there's two unmitigated explosions in rapid succession in LFR, the second is programmed to hit for far less than the first. Whereas in normal both explosions hit for the same amount.

And 60k average dps is completely inadequate for normal T14? Damn.
Many casual raiders, since they are not focused on progression, will just take along the people that they like from a social perspective. These aren't always the best players. It doesn't mean that they don't have the ability to be great players, but simply that it is not a priority for them to carefully research boss mechanics or their own rotations and gearing strategies past the most simple of guides, or change specs according to the changes in each patch. These players that you call bad still enjoy raiding. When you compare them to the player base of WoW as a whole, they are actually quite knowledgeable and skilled, but aren't willing to put in the time it takes to research how to completely min/max. They'd rather just play the game. And I would argue that the majority of players who want to raid fall into this category. Those of you who think that we should be ignored by Blizz in favor of the small percentage of players who are "good" are just wrong from a subscription/numbers standpoint.

Although this thread gives me some ideas for how to handle raiding just after 5.2. I think I'll take us into ToT the first week just to get an idea of what we're up against. If it doesn't look like we can down any bosses, then I'll make our raid day an lfr day when lfr becomes available. Some of my raiders do have difficulty finding time for both reg raids and lfr, so this would ensure that they have time to get a little bit of gear. Then, if ToT still looks too challenging in following weeks, then I'll take us back to T14 and we'll probably have a great time clearing that content. :)
I wish people would remember that the ToT LFR is going to be phased in over the course of a month, so it isn't as if on week 1 people are going to be able to 16/16 the LFR bosses. For the first part of patch 5.2, if nothing else, it'll still be worthwhile to be killing Tier 14 bosses because the Tier 15 LFR will not be available.
Many casual raiders...


If you cannot progress in normal modes you are not a great player who just so happens to not be able to put the time and research to be amazingly successful.
02/04/2013 01:54 PMPosted by Brannon
many LFR bosses just have reduced damage with very few to no changes mechanics wise. Like Stone Guard. That's all it takes to make a fight faceroll.


There is a huge change to the mechanics of Stone Guard in LFR versus normal. If there's two unmitigated explosions in rapid succession in LFR, the second is programmed to hit for far less than the first. Whereas in normal both explosions hit for the same amount.

And 60k average dps is completely inadequate for normal T14? Damn.


Hmm, never knew that. Guess blade lord and spirit kings would be better examples..
60k dps would be acceptable if your group was going in in blues the first week. When he says the "average" is 55-60k that means there are people doing sub-Dragon Soul levels of DPS in the gear of people who are raiding T14 heroics. No, that's not going to beat Garalon.
02/04/2013 03:30 PMPosted by Mahourai
Many casual raiders...


If you cannot progress in normal modes you are not a great player who just so happens to not be able to put the time and research to be amazingly successful.
No, I said that they are not the best players, but this doesn't mean that they don't have potential to be great players if they put more time and effort into it.

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