Soul Fire in Meta form?

Warlock
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is it worth it to use soul fire if you have molten core procs in meta form? should i use it with/without cooldowns? or is it worth to only use it in execute?

EDIT: also, bonus points to whomever can tell me the best/most effective way to use Hand of Gul'dan regarding the stacks of the dot, whether to stack it or not, etc
There is a lot of math involved that would be great to calculate. I should hit up a target dummy...

If you're talking PvP, I like to save my 2nd Gul'dan charge to extend the snare duration, or if I'm approaching a burst phase, I will save at least one for a Chaos Wave -- that's pretty much your best spell as Demonology.

I was told that Soul Fire should not be used in Demon Form. I imagine it has to do with damage per fury spent -- but again, this is something I would like to do some math on.

I like Soul Fire as a filler spell, to build fury during the sustained phase.
There is a lot of math involved that would be great to calculate. I should hit up a target dummy...

If you're talking PvP, I like to save my 2nd Gul'dan charge to extend the snare duration, or if I'm approaching a burst phase, I will save at least one for a Chaos Wave -- that's pretty much your best spell as Demonology.

I was told that Soul Fire should not be used in Demon Form. I imagine it has to do with damage per fury spent -- but again, this is something I would like to do some math on.

I like Soul Fire as a filler spell, to build fury during the sustained phase.

I am talking about PvE, sorry forgot to specify that. And I ask the thing about soul fire because I've heard both cases of using it in meta form and only using it out of it. I was wondering if anyone had any numbers or something lol
I have tried the SF in meta several times with/without DS up. I did not see anything that would lead me to say that it is better to cast in meta form. Takes too long to cast compared to spaming ToC. Also a bigger drain on resources for the damage done. I would not recommend it.

Best time to clip HoG is with DS/procs up and going into Meta before it lands. It is best seen at the start of my rotation. HoG>CoE>Corr>DS>Imp Swarm+Wrathstorm>HoG>Meta. After much testing this has lead to about 2k increase in dps from the start (single target). The stacked DoT will should be doing x2 damage plus bonus from DS and Meta form.

During long fights, I don't tend to wait for 2 HoG's to stack before using. But I always hold one for DS to use before jumping into Meta. Overall about 3k increase from other rotations I have tried.
It has a better DPET than ToC (iirc) and so you can use it to full effect if you end the fight on 0 DF after spamming it in meta at the very end.

It could also be able to be done during execute as you don't lose MC stacks, but I'm not sure if the DF cost is more efficient than ToC.

Don't use it normally.. it's a really quick way to build DF back up when you exit meta.
For HoG, you ideally want to get two stacks up every time you use it, while always building charges. This means using HoG a little bit before the second charge has finished charging, cast a shadowbolt and soulfire or two soulfires, then use your second charge. (There are other combos you can use between, but the first is typically what I try and use)

For when to use soulfire, it's a dps boost to use it over ToC assuming you don't need to refresh corruption, but it's better to save charges to use in human form over meta. This means you only use soulfire in meta when the amount of charges is inconsequential, which really only occurs when your target is in execute range, though there are times where you have enough targets where soulfire charges are plentiful.
I tend to use SF procs outside of meta unless I'm sitting on 800+ fury, DS is coming off CD, and I have Imp Swarm ready. I haven't run the math, but DS/Meta and SF feels stronger. (Yes I stay in meta for the entire duration of DS).

In execute range I tend to weave SF and SB outside of meta because of the mana cost.
There's really so many variables involved, it's insane.

I just did a test on a dummy, and using Molten Core procs in Meta form did turn out about 2000 DPS more than not using it:

Non Soul Fire test:
I had 1000 Fury, Curse of the Elements, and Corruption up. I used both Chaos Waves then spammed Touch of Chaos until a Chaos Wave came up.
Result: 19,800 dps

Soul Fire test:
I had 10 Molten Core procs, 1000 Fury, Curse of the Elements, and Corruption up. I had to add in one Touch of Chaos to refresh Corruption. A wild imp popped out at some point too, which could have affected the data. I ran out of fury with one molten core proc left.
Result: 21,200 dps

I did not use Doom to make the test a little cleaner, and I did not use Dark Soul, as the buff duration's interaction with DoT uptime and Soul Fire cast time would add quite a few more variables to consider.


There's just so much going on in Demo with so many variables. I know there are probably many problems with my experiment, but it was hard enough to GO INTO Meta form with 10 molten core procs ready to go, no wild imps to influence the data, etc.

I also didn't spend any Fury on Chaos Waves in the Soul Fire test, which seems like a mistake to me. I bet the DPS could have been even higher.

Short Answer: Do what's comfortable and do your best, and don't worry about that last ounce of damage....
I personally like saving Soul Fire for caster form as a major Fury generator for when I actually NEED a burst phase.
Interesting fun facts I'm learning off these target dummies:

Dark Soul + Blood Fury + Trinket macro added 13k DPS to my Imp Swarm! 43k up from 30k with nothing else cast on the target.

BTW Dark Intent is up for all of these tests.
As for stacking meteors, I didnt really notice a big difference in DPS, but again, this is tough to check.

First test I used one, then refreshed at the last second to stack it.
Second test I used them both right away.
I had Corruption, Curse of Elements, and Demonic Calling up and ready. Fel flame refreshed Corruption as needed, and Shadowbolt was used as a filler.
I used my Soul Fire procs, which I probably shouldn't have for a more accurate reading, but I'm not sure how this would have affected things.

Tested over the course of 60 seconds. Recasted a single meteor as they became available.

The result was a mere 500 DPS increase favoring casting two immediate meteors, but this could have easily been affected by crits, Soul Fire problems, my own mistakes, etc....

Short Answer: I would just try and keep Hand of Gul'dan on your target as much as possible, while saving at least one charge for your Meta burst phase, especially if you're full on Fury and Dark Soul is coming up.
Use soul fire in meta if you are in execute range or if it is a burn phase.
02/06/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Sophios
I had Corruption, Curse of Elements, and Demonic Calling up and ready. Fel flame refreshed Corruption as needed, and Shadowbolt was used as a filler.


You should not be using fel flame as Demo at all. Use TOC to refresh Corruption.
02/06/2013 08:17 PMPosted by Kruil
You should not be using fel flame as Demo at all. Use TOC to refresh Corruption.


You use fel flame as demo to refresh corruption on a group of adds that you have previously put the dot on. On single target, you're correct, you don't use Fel flame either in caster or meta form.
I had Corruption, Curse of Elements, and Demonic Calling up and ready. Fel flame refreshed Corruption as needed, and Shadowbolt was used as a filler.


You should not be using fel flame as Demo at all. Use TOC to refresh Corruption.


That's not realistic. I didn't say Void Ray, so if you don't mean this you must mean to NEVER use Fel Flame and just shift into meta form only to refresh corruption, which sounds ridiculously inefficient. I suppose it's plausible, but in certain phases you need burst for extended periods, in which case you don't want Metamorphosis on cooldown. And if Dark Soul is up, you want a good pool of Fury to spend on it.

Fel flame is actually a great spell. The damage is excellent given the cast time and mana cost. If you're not ready for your Meta burst phase and Corruption will expire before you can finish casting a Soul Fire/Shadow Bolt.

Maybe there are some scenarios when you could up your DPS by doing a short pop into Meta form, but I imagine it would only work for fights where short bursts are required rather than large fury pools.
02/06/2013 10:46 PMPosted by Amnaesia
You should not be using fel flame as Demo at all. Use TOC to refresh Corruption.


You use fel flame as demo to refresh corruption on a group of adds that you have previously put the dot on. On single target, you're correct, you don't use Fel flame either in caster or meta form.


Wouldnt it be more efficient to simply use Void Ray?
02/06/2013 08:12 PMPosted by Kruil
Use soul fire in meta if you are in execute range or if it is a burn phase.


This doesn't feel entirely correct. Execute range just means you have more MC procs than you could ever hope to use. It still doesn't answer the question of which form to use it in and when. It's going to do the same amount of damage (setting aside trinket and enchant procs) whether or not you're in execute range, so saying use it in execute range is not any different from saying "use it in meta".

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