5.2 Discipline PVE Nerfs.... Dang!

Priest
OK... getting ugly.

Comparison... Disc 5.1 AoE heals versus 5.2 AoE. This is based on one AoE damage phase, Imperial Visier Zor'lof in HoF, Force and Verve which (assuming all are underneath shields) is 60k damage per second per player for 10 seconds... 600k Total. Enough to kill eveyone, clothies 1.5 times over.

5.1.... 4 x PoH = 54k mana, 1 million heals. Sounds a lot, but that's only 100k (inc DA) on each player over the period as compared to Holy PoH which gives 75k. Plus they have spam renew 50k, CoH and Holy Word: Sanctuary. Won't worry about Lightwell (even though it will last through both phases) or DH because of their CD's.

You can pop SS for the first Force and Verve so ramp up 150k+ shields for this and heal through to the tune of another 50k per cast (inc DA) for 100k per person across the raid. That's healing just under half the incoming damage, the other healer has done less numbers but similar and because we were at full health when we started, we're looking great. No drama with the first one... easy.

Enter 5.2.

SS is on CD from the first F and V, PoH is going to heal for 30k per person per cast. This amounts to 60k heals to each person over the 10 second period. Thats 10% of the incoming damage... Awesome. Clearly this is not feasible. So we pop AA and increase the healing to 75k per person. Nowhere near enough, so we pop PI and get another PoH in taking it to 112.5k heals on 5 members, the others with only 75k. We're asking a lot of the other healer here.

What can I do to try and get myself to say... 100k heals on everyone over 10 seconds? That's around 16% of the incoming damage.

1/ 10 x PW:S? Over 137k mana, 86k heals on everyone, takes the full 10 seconds to cast. Nope.
2/ 1 x Penance and Smiting away (say 6 of them). 120k plus 180k. 300k, average 30k per person. Nope.
3/ Binding Heal x 7. 840k heals, 84k each. Not enough and oops.. 153k mana. Nope.

Iv'e tried mulltiple combinations of all these taking into account the HPS, Mana cost and cast time. Not a one is viable and/or amounts to 100k on 10 people over 10 seconds. Sure, I didn't include PoM, it's a one off during it, or two if you cast it beforehand, so add 20k healing to everyone assuming best case scenario.

In the case of Force and Verve, you can get through if the other healer pops a CD on round two, but this is just an example of how weak Disc Priest AoE heals will be after 5.2. What about phases such as the final Imperial Visier Zor'lof phase, Earthquake, Draw Flame, Titan Gas etc?

How scary is this? Or are my maths blatantly out?
In this particular situation, you'd be at least 2-healing. My group clears the first platform with only 1 F&V, but my solution would be to alternate CDs if you're expecting a second. I heal with a Resto Shaman, and during our first few kills, I'd use SS on the first and he'd pop HTT on the second.

I think Disc players have acclimated themselves to using SS for each and every occurrence of a big damage mechanic like Force & Verve, Unseen Strike, Rain of Blades, etc. while other healers are used to having to rotate cooldowns. In my raid, I've always felt personally responsible for them. I don't believe we should expect to be able to take the full brunt of each and every occurrence of something like Force and Verve if it is presented with such frequency. You're right that our AoE will fall short on its own (without a CD like SS), but all of the other healing classes will be at about the same spot, give or take.

We play this way to get the most out of our class, yes, but if a mechanic like this is designed to hit this often, it's clearly not the priest's sole responsibility to take care of it.

Edit: for clarification.
Currently we do exactly the same, my co-healer is a shammy also. We've discussed these changes already so she knows that she will likely have to change from a Crit heavy build to a Mastery heavy build to beef up her Deep Healing.

My intent here was to show some calculations in an AoE situation that's mathematically simple to work out... coz' maths isn't my strong suit. Something like Titan Gas is more unnerving dealing 20k damage per player per second for 20 seconds on top of what else is going on. Granted, the time in between each is enough for CD's to reset, but it's still a whole ton of AoE healing and the SS nerf in my own case is 40%. 45% including the shammy passive.

Don't get me wrong, if there is a way to make it work, we'll work it out eventually but straight up, the SS and DA nerfs on top of the Rapture nerf look devastating to me.
I haven't tested it in PTR and I'm just basing it on the patch notes. It seems though than unless they buff the base healing done by PoH for Disc priests, it would just be plain silly to cast it outside of Inner Focus or SS.

-OR- if a situation presents itself where you actually have the luxury of time to cast a lot of PoHs to get people's health back up without having to worry about the tank getting smashed by boss damage (in which case any DA shields generated during the time are likely going to be wasted). I find that unlikely though especially on heroic mode.
No, it's not, and if the luxury came up, you'd probably spend the time using Atonement heals. If I'm in Holy, so same gear, POH heals for around 38k. Or can bang out 5 renews in the same cast time for 50k each. Then CoH for 20k each, and at the same time have Holy Word: Sanctuary up.

They were always meant to be 2 different healing specs... Shielding or Healing. The irony of the whole thing is that even including the current absorbs, Disc has less throughput than any other healing class. What makes us "OP" is that a popped shield is a 100% heal, no overheal and will always register before a heal.

In periods of sustained heavy AoE damage, we'll get in a big burst of heals if SS is timed well but once the SS shields are down, we get spanked BADLY by everyone. It's the mechanics, not the size of our shields/heals that make us stand out.

So I can't see why a simple change to the way mastery scales and a change to the PoH and DA coefficient isn't a good way to go so we can keep our nerfed shields, but still have a bit of grunt for those heavy AoE phases.

On the upside of all this though, the Penance buff and Power Word: Solace changes mean that outside of a heavy AoE damage phase we can still bang out around 25k HPS of smart (< key word) heals and throw in a PW:S or 2 for near no mana consumption.
02/03/2013 02:44 AMPosted by Bigbuffdaddy
How scary is this? Or are my maths blatantly out?


The answer to your first question is pretty scary provided the answer to your second question is no. Unfortunately the answer to your second question is yes. Hope this helps.
1/ 10 x PW:S? Over 137k mana, 86k heals on everyone, takes the full 10 seconds to cast. Nope.
2/ 1 x Penance and Smiting away (say 6 of them). 120k plus 180k. 300k, average 30k per person. Nope.
3/ Binding Heal x 7. 840k heals, 84k each. Not enough and oops.. 153k mana. Nope.


Your PW:S should be pre-cast if SS isn't up, and each PW:S should be shielding for ~125k with AA, assuming you've already reforged out of Crit into Mastery. That's at least 1.25mil of pre-shields if timed right, which is slightly less than a Divine Hymn from a Holy Priest.

You can then follow it up with an IF/PoH, which should heal and shield each person in one group for at least 100k. After which, you can toss out a Cascade and offensive Penance (each tick should hit for roughly 50k post 5.2).

Yea, you'll still have the tools to heal the raid up.
02/03/2013 06:51 AMPosted by Bigbuffdaddy
In periods of sustained heavy AoE damage, we'll get in a big burst of heals if SS is timed well but once the SS shields are down, we get spanked BADLY by everyone. It's the mechanics, not the size of our shields/heals that make us stand out.


You should rethink using BT more effectively. Weaving in PW:S to take advantage of the fact that BT isn't consumed by PoM, Solace or Penance will really help, especially since PoM and Penance are set to be higher HPS/HPM than PoH post 5.2.
In regards to spirit shell you are forgetting a few things. First you are omitting how priests stats will change once 5.2 lands to compensate. You are assuming the same stat priorities, that's a mistake. I think that the higher stat priority will be haste in most instances with a breakpoint being when you can get at least 6 total PoH casts off, at least for a 10m raid.

You will no longer be reforging out of crit and haste anymore, nor will you have to reforge into spirit with the rapture changes. Until we get a final build it's hard to determine what stats will take priority, as a lot can change atm. But for the example below I am going with Haste.

Assuming 30k per PoH cast with 3 casts per group that's a 90k SS bubble on each person in a 10m raid, or 900k damage absorbed. That amounts to a 10% nerf in throughput from the example you gave using your numbers. This is without using AA. With AA you up this to about 112k shield per person or 1.12m on SS.

Now that's all well and fine of course for the first 1-2 ticks of F&V but what about the rest of the damage? Well you just heal through it. You will have less DA but on the flip side you will have less overhealing when PoH goes off. More damage will go through but less healing will be wasted as well. I don't know about you but for me my PoH gets between 25-40% overhealing. That overhealing is mostly due to DA, cut the DA procs down and now all of that overhealing is now knocked out of the way and turned into effective healing. The only thing the change really does is that instead of healthbars being stable they will move up and down a bit more due to the lack of absorbs.

Another way you could handle the extra damage would be to proc IF and then PoH to get a guaranteed DA proc on one group then PW:S x 5 the second group. If you use Inner Will in that situation you will expend about 87.5k mana for an effective healing of around 750k (This assumes a haste build). This again is a nerf but it is manageable especially with your other healer.

So what would you do in a 10m raid? About 10 seconds prior to F&V you pop AA and then SS and blanket the raid. Once its done you pop IF and pop PoH on one group to get a DA proc then pop PW:S on the second group. You can get all of your PW:S off just before the SS wears off.

What if you get a second F&V? Have the other healer use their cooldown and you use AA, PI, and Barrier and heal through it.

Now you have to factor in that with the new raid content there will be new gear and higher throughut stats on that gear to push our numbers higher on SS. Do you kinda see why the mastery to SS change was made? It was a scaling issue, it lowers the rate at which our SS scales up which reduces the risk of Disc priests cheesing entire game mechanics again. It isn't as bad at it first looks once you adjust your stat point priorities around.

My main concern though has to do with 25m raids. The nerf to them is much more substantial. You are almost cutting their SS in half. They can no longer blanket the entire raid like they used to. They could just focus on 2-3 groups instead and just get a decently sized shield on those groups but I'm not sure how that would work out, and it is completely encounter dependent anyways. Someone which more 25m experience than me could prob figure that one out.

Disc in a 10m raid can and will be fine if they change their stat priorities and spell rotations. But in 25m they are just screwed over. Another change needs to go in before this goes live to help 25m disc priests.

Note: Both the example you gave and my answer for it are based on the current PTR changes. These changes are not certain until we get a release candidate build. This is just to try and quiet down some of the Chicken Little's that are running around the priest forums these days.
02/03/2013 06:51 AMPosted by Bigbuffdaddy
The irony of the whole thing is that even including the current absorbs, Disc has less throughput than any other healing class.


The primary fight where maximum sustained throughput is tested is the last phase of heroic elite protectors (when the entire raid has touch of sha). Last week, from the time Asani died to the time the fight ended (around 3 minutes), I did over 170000 effective hps.

I'd be... more than a little surprised if it turned out that was less throughput than every other class.
02/03/2013 08:24 AMPosted by Ceddya
Your PW:S should be pre-cast if SS isn't up, and each PW:S should be shielding for ~125k with AA, assuming you've already reforged out of Crit into Mastery. That's at least 1.25mil of pre-shields if timed right, which is slightly less than a Divine Hymn from a Holy Priest.


How viable PW:S becomes is a bit of an unknown for me at this point. With the changes, does it mean we're likely to be able to cast 4-5 to preshield without killing mana? I'm not quite sure.

02/03/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Tiesha
You are assuming the same stat priorities, that's a mistake. I think that the higher stat priority will be haste in most instances with a breakpoint being when you can get at least 6 total PoH casts off, at least for a 10m raid.


Not missing this one, just waiting for more information. It's obvious that mastery will have significantly less value in 5.2. Since PW:S is the only cast that Mastery will come into play on every time, how many times you can cast it will be the deciding factor on how much Mastery you keep and how much goes to a balance of Crit/Haste.

02/03/2013 07:48 AMPosted by Volios
The answer to your first question is pretty scary provided the answer to your second question is no. Unfortunately the answer to your second question is yes. Hope this helps


I was sitting on PTR doing these casts so figured it was as accurate it could be... But very happy to wrong.
02/03/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Ceddya
take advantage of the fact that BT


I'm confused. What is BT?
02/03/2013 03:29 PMPosted by Bigbuffdaddy
How viable PW:S becomes is a bit of an unknown for me at this point. With the changes, does it mean we're likely to be able to cast 4-5 to preshield without killing mana? I'm not quite sure.


PW:S is poised to be slightly lower HPM than a 0% overhealing 5-target PoH in 5.2. Still, if you have the mana to heal the raid up with PoH after bursts in damage, you're probably better off just using PW:S as pre-shields instead (if SS isn't up).

This is assuming that you're reforging into Mastery, and the fact that our secondary stats do not synergize well with our entire toolkit is annoying to say the least.

02/04/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Fluffychoo
I'm confused. What is BT?


Borrowed Time.
Oh. Ha. I forgot that even existed. Derp.
PW:S is poised to be slightly lower HPM than a 0% overhealing 5-target PoH in 5.2. Still, if you have the mana to heal the raid up with PoH after bursts in damage, you're probably better off just using PW:S as pre-shields instead (if SS isn't up).

This is assuming that you're reforging into Mastery, and the fact that our secondary stats do not synergize well with our entire toolkit is annoying to say the least.


If by slightly you mean less than half the hpm (including crits and the resulting aegis), sure.

Also, reforging into mastery does not seem like a very good assumption for 5.2 gearing.
If by slightly you mean less than half the hpm (including crits and the resulting aegis), sure.

Also, reforging into mastery does not seem like a very good assumption for 5.2 gearing.


Slightly may have been an overreach, but we're also comparing values of PW:S to a 0% overhealing 5-target PoH. How often does that happen, especially in a 25-man overrun with smart heals?

Like I've said though, I thoroughly dislike how our secondary stats are going to work in 5.2 Having a stat not affect a substantial part of our toolkit is not good design.

Edit: Also, I think Kael's made a post showing how we should be able to maintain some semblance of PW:S stacking post 5.2.
Having a stat not affect a substantial part of our toolkit is not good design.
This. Particularly since BT already devalues haste and crit is less-than-ideal because no one wants to rely on RNG to heal sufficiently.
02/04/2013 01:06 PMPosted by Ceddya
but we're also comparing values of PW:S to a 0% overhealing 5-target PoH. How often does that happen, especially in a 25-man overrun with smart heals?


This is a valid point, but I think it fairly seldom that DA that isn't popped. If any component of a current PoH is overheal, it's the puny PoH itself. The patch shows an obvious increase in strength to single target heals with the upcoming PW:S buff (at least I'm led to believe it's being buffed) and the 20% Penance buff.

To me the concern remains how often we can use PW:S leading up to, or during a high AoE damage phase. We'll get 1 PoH in with Inner Focus when it starts, which will be a great heal... but only 1. Then it's down to AA, PW:S, a couple of expensive Binding Heals and PoM. We have the arsenal to do it... but the mana, I'm not so sure.

I think we still need some sort of extra AoE heal, even if it came at the expense of the Penance and PW:S buffs. Extra strength in healing single targets isn't really necessary nowdays.
Slightly may have been an overreach, but we're also comparing values of PW:S to a 0% overhealing 5-target PoH. How often does that happen, especially in a 25-man overrun with smart heals?

Like I've said though, I thoroughly dislike how our secondary stats are going to work in 5.2 Having a stat not affect a substantial part of our toolkit is not good design.

Edit: Also, I think Kael's made a post showing how we should be able to maintain some semblance of PW:S stacking post 5.2.


Yes, once you include overhealing it gets a lot closer. PoH will still be ahead on paper, but it may be possible that in some 25mans you will dedicate one disc priest to spam PW:S before damage bursts and stand around doing almost nothing (getting mana back) during low damage phases while letting the other healers worry about actually topping people off.

Agreed on secondary stats (mostly mastery) being pretty messed up in 5.2. Huge benefit to PW:S; very little benefit to every other spell.
New patch notes on MMO-C with tons of numbers changes... now to wait for the realms to come up so we can play the "figure out which are datamining errors / tooltip updates" game.

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