Mistweaver DPS on PTR

Monk
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I decided to pop onto the PTR and see what all these DPS changes to mistweavers were actually like. In case some of you haven't yet tested it yourself and to see your opinions on it, I decided I should post some simple tests I did here.

The basics of it are that blackout kick does amazing cleave damage now. With four targets (only four dummies, I was too lazy to find a place I could actually test on five targets) in PTR gear (498 iLevel) I could sustain 90k DPS! Well, when I say "sustain", I mean I could keep it up for 2 minutes 34 seconds before running out of mana. However, it isn't like we really care about that cleave DPS on a boss fight. That damage is for trash pulls, and you can drink right after those, so the mana cost is less of an issue.

You might be thinking that's only because of the PTR gear, but not really. In the gear I am wearing now on live (474 iLevel) I can do nearly the same, getting around 82k DPS on four targets. The fifth target would put me right near 100k DPS. As a healer!

Another thing worth noting is that the cleave range seems to be quite big, so you don't have to worry about all the enemies being stacked perfectly.

However, no matter how cool your DPS is, you're still a healer, so it's possible you would want to replace the jab chi generation with spinning crane kick. Obviously this is significantly more expensive, and I could only maintain this rotation for 1 minute 37 seconds before being completely OOM. Since SCK could only hit three of the four dummies, that was only 79k DPS. Though in a true AoE situation, where there are more than 5 targets clustered together, it would offer significantly better DPS than jab > jab > blackout kick. This would be quite strong healing as well, assuming the group was stacked with you.

That's all for AoE though. Single target is (in my opinion) more interesting still. On the PTR I play as a gnome with ascension, simply because of the new tiger palm change so it grants me 1% of my max mana. Getting that extra mana every tiger palm is amazingly useful, considering the single target rotation is jab > tiger palm > jab, etc.

Single target I could sustain 63k DPS, which is really not bad. That's a fair bit more than my 472 iLevel WW monk spec does on live, though I didn't test WW in 498 gear. The best thing about the single target rotation is that it's free. Not only free, you actually gain mana while doing it! (Assuming you have a decent bit of spirit.) You can gain mana because to stay full mana it won't require all the mana tea stacks you generate. Some are left over. As a gnome (the most efficient at this) I was able to gain one stack of mana tea every 20 seconds. This is hardly amazing regen, but remember that I'm still doing full speed eminence healing while doing this!

I should mention that this was all done with 18,016 intellect and 11,894 spirit. However in my gear on live, which has 14,345 intellect and 9,995 spirit with the same buffs, my numbers weren't very different. I would tell you what they were, but I forgot to write them down. I'm good at this whole testing thing.

All this seems great, but chi wave is still quite nerfed on the PTR. In the 498 gear it does 30k, but on live in my 474 gear, it does 27k on half the CD. However, before anyone screams that the sky is falling, I would still like to point out that all it costs to get that 120k smart heal every 15 seconds is one GCD. A second for 120k extra healing is still a good deal. That said, I'm still hoping it's just a bug and it will get brought back to its former PTR glory.

Finally, I just wanted to ask what you guys think of this. Do you think that we will become valid raid members as a pure DPS healer? In terms of HPS we would do a fair bit more than half a healer from eminence alone, considering it's a smart heal, and would account for more than half of a proper DPSer as well. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see MW monks beating weaker DPS classes in DPS. Then on top of that, we would still bring our revival and chi torpedo for big AoE damage, chi wave on CD for that little extra smart heal, and bubble for when the tank is in danger. We could also use renewing mist on CD, considering the mana cost wouldn't matter and it does a fair amount of healing. All this seems pretty good to me.

EDIT: I should also say that I haven't done testing like this in ages and I've always been bad at math. If I made a mistake, please tell me. I'll try not to kill you over it.
Very thorough, I concur.
I honestly don't see it going live, or staying live for very long. Other healers will moan about how monks can do damage and heal. Priests will moan about how monks do more damage and heal. Raids might feel monks are mandatory for fights where they are having issues with the enrage timer (for the extra DPS). Someone will die to a monk in PVP and it will be like "OMG, a monk just killed me with hiz fists. Nerf monks!"

It's impossible to have nice toys. Everyone else gets jealous. =(
I honestly don't see it going live, or staying live for very long. Other healers will moan about how monks can do damage and heal. Priests will moan about how monks do more damage and heal. Raids might feel monks are mandatory for fights where they are having issues with the enrage timer (for the extra DPS). Someone will die to a monk in PVP and it will be like "OMG, a monk just killed me with hiz fists. Nerf monks!"

It's impossible to have nice toys. Everyone else gets jealous. =(


Yeah, you are probably right. It does seem too good to make it to live. Crazier things have made it through, but I think Blizzard is still quite scared of over buffing monks so they don't have another fiasco like death knights. I wasn't playing back then, but I've heard it was quite a mess. They are probably monitoring our class pretty carefully.

I may sound like a bit of an elitist saying this, but I do think monks deserve to be on the overpowered side of the healer spectrum. The complaints would be endless, but I have all five healers at 90, and I do the LFRs on them all every week. I love my monk, but I really do feel like I have to work much harder on my monk. We have really a lot of abilities to manage. I think we should be rewarded by having the highest potential. Not excessively, somewhere below what discipline priests are capable of now.

Ah well, I'll keep dreaming until the patch notes are updated. :P
They have to make up for the eminence nerf or they will kill fistweaving. They seem to want us to heal more through melee. The added damage to blackout kick and tiger palm with the jab buff makes up for the 25% healing nerf.

They are dumbing down the healing rotation it seems too. Almost in hopes that it becomes easier to fistweave. They are removing chi dumps from the tier 30 talent so we are able to blackout kick or uplift spam much easier.

Critting a blackout kick for 150k and it double healing with our statue for 60k a piece is going to be pretty nice.
Blackout Kick cleaves on the PTR? holy ****!

Can't wait for this.
It's our "utility" considering our CDs are still on the lackluster side, although the LC buff is quite nice.
They have to make up for the eminence nerf or they will kill fistweaving. They seem to want us to heal more through melee. The added damage to blackout kick and tiger palm with the jab buff makes up for the 25% healing nerf.

They are dumbing down the healing rotation it seems too. Almost in hopes that it becomes easier to fistweave. They are removing chi dumps from the tier 30 talent so we are able to blackout kick or uplift spam much easier.

Critting a blackout kick for 150k and it double healing with our statue for 60k a piece is going to be pretty nice.


I don't think they are really trying to dumb down the mistweaver rotation. It will be a little simpler without those chi costs, but that was just a pretty straight forward way of improving the class. It's what I expected them to do. Even if it's a bit simpler, mistweavers are still the most complicated and involved healer to play. We take the most micro-managing of all of them. (Just my opinion, but I do play all the healers regularly.)

I am definitely looking forward to spamming blackout kick on trash pulls and keeping the raid up with those smart heals. Something I forgot to test is how it does the healing. I assume it does each part of the blackout kick cleave as its own smart heal, rather than one big heal. I hope it's the first option, because small and fast smart heals are amazing HPS.

Can't wait for this.


Yeah, if it survives to launch like it is now, it'll be epic!

It's our "utility" considering our CDs are still on the lackluster side, although the LC buff is quite nice.


Not to derail my own thread, but I disagree about our CDs. They are by no means the best, but I think they are really quite good. Revival does a large chunk of what a tranquility or divine hymm would do, but instantly, which means it has far less chance of overhealing and you can still go back to your normal healing rotation while the druid is casting their big CD. It also helps a lot with monk mobility. Perhaps I'm just bad at timing, but I often find myself wishing I could move while I'm casting a tranquility or similar spells on one of my other healers. The monk doesn't have that issue. And on top of that, our bubble is a really great tank saving CD. I prefer it to pain suppression, ironbark, hand of sacrifice, etc. It definitely isn't better than guardian spirit, but still quite good.

Anyway, that is getting a little off my topic of MW DPS I suppose.
I've hopped on the PTR to test out the fistweaving dps, and while I didn't get any solid numbers for dmg, I'm really impressed with how hard my TP and BoK are hitting... The mana isn't an issue, it's still 4% net loss for TP, 8% for BoK, (before mana tea). I've seen several TP's hit for 60-80k, BoK's hitting single targets for 70-90k (with 30k on other targets). I've seen crits go as high as 145k for TP, and 170k for BoK.

I tested it out on the dummy, single target, and these were the results:

For live, unbuffed (not even self buffed, no flask, or fed, 490 ilvl), over a 151 sec. fight, I did ~23k dps:
Melee (n=74) [1511743 dmg] - 43.6%
TP (n=37) [0602322 dmg] - 17.4%
Chi w (n=28) [0346571 dmg] - 10%
Tiger S(n=17) [0336174 dmg] - 9.7%
Jab (n=45) [0335446 dmg] - 9.7%
BoK (n=8) [0335341 dmg] - 9.7%

T= 3467597

Macro used:
/castsequence reset=12 Expel Harm, renewing mist, Jab, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, mana tea, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Chi Wave, Mana tea

PTR, same buffs, same gear:

TP (n=39) dmg= 3406529 49.2%
Melee (n=83) dmg = 1606101 23.2%
BoK (n=14) dmg = 888370 12.8%
Tiger S (n=33) dmg = 653084 9.4%
Jab (n=47) dmg = 366780 5.3%

T= 6920864 dmg, ~44k dps (156sec)

Healing done from self eminence: 2066877 (just incase you're curious)

Macro used:
/castsequence reset=12 Expel Harm, renewing mist, Jab, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, mana tea, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Blackout Kick, Mana tea

*note that I replaced Chi wave with BoK, I'll probably stick chiwave back in there later... It was just causing a build up of chi that I didn't really want... and I had been playing with Zen Sphere/Chi burst too.
Macro used:
/castsequence reset=12 Expel Harm, renewing mist, Jab, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, mana tea, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Blackout Kick, Mana tea


Just in case you are not aware, the reset parameter of cast sequence only applies after you have not used the macro for 12 seconds. It won't reset it back to square one after 12 seconds if you keep pushing it. So not sure if that is what you are going for there or not.
I've hopped on the PTR to test out the fistweaving dps, and while I didn't get any solid numbers for dmg, I'm really impressed with how hard my TP and BoK are hitting... The mana isn't an issue, it's still 4% net loss for TP, 8% for BoK, (before mana tea). I've seen several TP's hit for 60-80k, BoK's hitting single targets for 70-90k (with 30k on other targets). I've seen crits go as high as 145k for TP, and 170k for BoK.

I tested it out on the dummy, single target, and these were the results:

For live, unbuffed (not even self buffed, no flask, or fed, 490 ilvl), over a 151 sec. fight, I did ~23k dps:
Melee (n=74) [1511743 dmg] - 43.6%
TP (n=37) [0602322 dmg] - 17.4%
Chi w (n=28) [0346571 dmg] - 10%
Tiger S(n=17) [0336174 dmg] - 9.7%
Jab (n=45) [0335446 dmg] - 9.7%
BoK (n=8) [0335341 dmg] - 9.7%

T= 3467597

Macro used:
/castsequence reset=12 Expel Harm, renewing mist, Jab, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, mana tea, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Chi Wave, Mana tea

PTR, same buffs, same gear:

TP (n=39) dmg= 3406529 49.2%
Melee (n=83) dmg = 1606101 23.2%
BoK (n=14) dmg = 888370 12.8%
Tiger S (n=33) dmg = 653084 9.4%
Jab (n=47) dmg = 366780 5.3%

T= 6920864 dmg, ~44k dps (156sec)

Healing done from self eminence: 2066877 (just incase you're curious)

Macro used:
/castsequence reset=12 Expel Harm, renewing mist, Jab, Blackout Kick, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, mana tea, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Jab, Tiger Palm, Surging Mist, Blackout Kick, Mana tea

*note that I replaced Chi wave with BoK, I'll probably stick chiwave back in there later... It was just causing a build up of chi that I didn't really want... and I had been playing with Zen Sphere/Chi burst too.


I note that you didn't list the live eminence healing for comparison. Since we are healers my personal opinion is the healing numbers are far more relevant than DPS numbers. Napkin math says somewhere around the same number, or slightly higher on live but I could be wrong about that. (based on ~55% of all damage except chi wave+ ~2.5x chi wave damage, assuming no statue in either sample). Obviously your dropping chi wave in the PTR sample has a noticeable effect on the healing numbers as well...
TP 200k (5 at 40k each)
Jab 24k (6 jabs at 4k each)
Free surging 75k
Serpents Zeal over 15 seconds 70k (Not counting tiger strikes even)
Chi wave 100k (4 bounces 25k each)
blackout kick 48k (1 every 30 seconds or second rotation to maintain SZ)

Thats a total of 517k healing times 25% crit is 646k

646 divided by 15 seconds to pull it off and you get 43k HPS of smart heals while gaining mana

Ilvl 492 with 1 hander LFR Loshan, self buffed with 11.5k spirit (spirit flask). 15 second rotation yielded 50k mana gained over 2 mins. This was all on the PTR. The crit I figured in would be raid buffed though but the default attacks I listed were with no raid buffs while beating on a target dummy.
I tried healing out on the PTR and yeah the cleave is nice for 5 man heroics. The mana cost of doing constant damage is no where near sustainable for long, you can very easily come close to OOM'ing in a single pull if your trying to dps.

Single target damage is still no where near atonement, so for most bosses your damage isn't going to be great.

One thing I did notice is that chi wave is completely FREE it doesn't cost mana OR chi its just a CD which is amazing.
I've actually considered shortening it a few times, and have, but I find that if it's too short (less than 4-5 seconds) then the macro will reset without Expel Harm being off CD (15 second CD) which totally screws up the whole thoughtlessness of the macro. It's really meant to be a transitional macro so I can move from fistweaving to mistweaving/popping CDs, that's why there's a long reset :)


I note that you didn't list the live eminence healing for comparison. Since we are healers my personal opinion is the healing numbers are far more relevant than DPS numbers. Napkin math says somewhere around the same number, or slightly higher on live but I could be wrong about that. (based on ~55% of all damage except chi wave+ ~2.5x chi wave damage, assuming no statue in either sample). Obviously your dropping chi wave in the PTR sample has a noticeable effect on the healing numbers as well...


I agree that healing numbers are really relevant, but this thread is looking at dps, and so I decided to focus on it :)
As for healing numbers, I agree that chi wave is necessary on CD, but since it no longer requires chi, I would just cast on CD outside of the macro. (I'm working on getting a good log of LFR fights). Since the eminence nerf, I'd predict about 20-25k hps from eminence (incl self and statue). However, the healing from mastery is going to be considerable since the change to how spheres expire... Plus there's Chi wave, surging mists every ~15 seconds, etc.

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