Stampede vs power shot - The numbers

Arenas
I was attempting to post this in response to a thread regarding stampede - but before I could the thread was deleted.

So not wanting my work to go to waste I thought I'd post it anyway.



Well if you consider 500s every second, sure.


If it's hitting for 500s, you suck. Most of them hit me for way more than that. Btw, are people using ferocity or Cunning in PvP? Ferocity would only buff it right?


I find it just shocking that no one that complains about this ability really knows anything about it.

First and foremost stampede's dmg is lack luster at best. Even with high pvp power it's not going to kill you by itself. Lynx rush was the reason hunters were retardedly overpowered at the start of the season. Although Stampede was nerfed early in the season it was the spirit beast heal that was the focus of that nerf.

Now lets talk about stampedes mechanics - I'll start by posting a tool tip
Claw:
25 Focus-3sec CD
Claw the enemy, causing ((1.5 * (118 + 166 / 2 + RAP * 0.168))) damage. Deals 100% more damage and costs 100% more Focus when your pet has 50 or more Focus.
(Claw is used as an example - Smack,bite,ect are primary attacks for different pets that behave the exact same way. Every pet has one)
Now stampede does 25% of normal pet damage to start with but with each stampede pet starting with 120 focus (as BM only) they can get 3 primary attacks in with this 100% dmg buff. The first attack costing 50 focus brings the stampede pets focus pool down to 70, and the second attack bring it down to 50 and the third bringing it down to 0.

Now if the pets are CC'ed during this time they will naturally regen focus based on the hunters focus regen I will use my rapid fire hasted focus regen of 7.25 for this example. At 7.25 regen per sec it would take about 6.8 sec to regen 50 focus. Well within the time of a 4-6 sec CC + time to run back to it's target with 50 focus and hit it again for the 100% bonus dmg.

Now we will talk about % dmg modifiers in regards to stampede and where they come from.

BW - 20%
Mastery - 30-35% (based on gear and buffs)
Rapid Fire - 3200 pvp power (2pc bonus) ~12% pvp power
>50 Focus buff - 100%
Stampede dmg reduction - 25% of normal dmg.
For a grand total of 162-167% bonus dmg. Before Stampede dmg reduction

So now we will do some math for real numbers. These numbers will be unbuffed.

For normal melee attacks from a pet on resil ~ 3.5k *.25 (Stampede dmg reduction)
Real dmg ~ 875 (depending on armor)
So the 1k dmg posted on the first page is a realistic number with different buffs rolling.

For special attacks such as claw/bite/smack ~8k*.25 (stampede dmg reduction)
Real dmg ~ 2000 (depending on armor)

Now we will add the other % dmg buffs
Melee 875 + 65% ~ 1443
Special attack 2000 + 165% ~ 5300
Pet attack speed 1.75 or 1.92 depending on pet spec. We'll average the 2 and use 1.83(I will not be counter frenzy stacks as they are very random. )

This means that over stampede's 20sec duration the stampede pets will attack 10.9 (11) times. for a total of 15.8k per pet for a total of 63.4k dmg over it's 20sec duration from JUST melee. 1443*11*4

Special attacks have a 3sec CD and as discussed above their can be a MAX of 4 special attack possible with the 100% dmg buff.
5300*4*4 ~ 84800

84800+63400=148200 dmg over 20sec ~ 7.4k dmg per sec with a 5min cool down. Adjusting the dps for the cool down we come to 24.6

Seeing how Lynx rush was nerfed and is no longer a factor I will use a present ability to compare how little dmg stampede really does.

I will use this video as a reference point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3jG-PBpZE8
4 power shot crits 112k, 200k, 200k, 158k
Average dmg - 167.5k
Cast time - 3sec (adjusted by haste)
DPS(over a 3sec duration) - 55.8k
CD - 1 min
DPS(adjusted for 60sec CD) - 930.5

I think this post speaks for it self. Stampede is used by most hunters for the buffs the pets bring to buff the burst of other abilities. Not for raw damage.
What I saw: My quote
What I read: The truth
What I will do now: Nothing
RAWR RAWR RAWR NERF HUNTERS RAWR RAWR.

No seriously, People are going to watch the powershot video,

Call for stampede nerfs ANYWAYS,

Call for powershot nerfs afterwards,

Call for hunter nerfs overall.

My foresight sees some future nerf where powershot damage becomes a DoT of some time, after 300 "Chaos Bolt...I MEAN UHH POWERSHOT NEEDS A NERF" threads are made.

And the cycle continues
Actually after we call for powershot nerfs we'll call for stampede nerfs again. And when it's nerfed, we'll nerf it again for good measure. Because we !@#$ing hate stampede.
The point of the post was to show the community that stampede is not very much dmg at all.

There are more powerful abilities in the hunter's tool kit. However if you want to call for nothing but stampede nerfs be my guest. I'll happily keep things like power shot and blink strike under the radar.
A single cast of stampede does more dmg than a single cast of power shot....but that's not realistic. Considering you can cast power shot 5 times as often - and no stampede does not do more dmg than 5 power shots.

- to address the zero dmg part....that's getting fixed in 5.2 according to blizz. That would be why I didn't take it into consideration in my OP.
i think a lot of the people havent actually had some bm hunter just pop stampede on them in a duel and see how much damage it does

its lol at best
I must be really, really bad in that case, I usually see a hunter near my gear level hit me with stampede pet claws for 8-10k per pet and 16-19k crits. If stampede only did about 60k damage I wouldn't die in LoS from hunter pets.

Remember boys and girls, Hunters hardly use stampede without all cooldowns. I don't see the point of telling me what it will do by itself when every hunter has their +3k pvp power bonus and their trinket and BW rolling. Lets see those numbers.
So do people expect a level 90 talent, with a long cast time, on a 1 min cd like Powershot to not hit hard?

Dream on ... life sucks sometimes.

As far as stampede, it's damage is terrible and has always been terrible outside the arena bug early this season. When you're getting blown up in stampede, it's mainly the Rapid Fire and Bestial Wrath damage the hunter is likely pumping in to you that's doing most the damage.

Having said that, making stampede not usable during those CDs would be appropriate ...
Peeps just hate that BM hunters are still hurting them with stampede/pet even while the hunter is deter'd (impossible to hurt/kill) for 20 seconds.

A lot of classes have no ability to CC the pet/stampede so its like free dmg while the hunter is invincible. Some players have no response to the free dmg except to eat it.

This is really the crux of the matter and the various complaints. The biggest chunk of other hunter complaints come from classes that are countered, to various degrees, by hunters, e.g. Mages
I must be really, really bad in that case, I usually see a hunter near my gear level hit me with stampede pet claws for 8-10k per pet and 16-19k crits. If stampede only did about 60k damage I wouldn't die in LoS from hunter pets.

Remember boys and girls, Hunters hardly use stampede without all cooldowns. I don't see the point of telling me what it will do by itself when every hunter has their +3k pvp power bonus and their trinket and BW rolling. Lets see those numbers.


Those numbers were included in my post.

Now we will add the other % dmg buffs
Melee 875 + 65% ~ 1443
Special attack 2000 + 165% ~ 5300
Pet attack speed 1.75 or 1.92 depending on pet spec. We'll average the 2 and use 1.83(I will not be counter frenzy stacks as they are very random. )

This means that over stampede's 20sec duration the stampede pets will attack 10.9 (11) times. for a total of 15.8k per pet for a total of 63.4k dmg over it's 20sec duration from JUST melee. 1443*11*4

Special attacks have a 3sec CD and as discussed above their can be a MAX of 4 special attack possible with the 100% dmg buff.
5300*4*4 ~ 84800

84800+63400=148200 dmg over 20sec ~ 7.4k dmg per sec with a 5min cool down. Adjusting the dps for the cool down we come to 24.6
Peeps just hate that BM hunters are still hurting them with stampede/pet even while the hunter is deter'd (impossible to hurt/kill) for 20 seconds.

A lot of classes have no ability to CC the pet/stampede so its like free dmg while the hunter is invincible. Some players have no response to the free dmg except to eat it.

This is really the crux of the matter and the various complaints. The biggest chunk of other hunter complaints come from classes that are countered, to various degrees, by hunters, e.g. Mages


The point of my post is to say that other abilities are more powerful than stampede. If you're saying that some classes/specs don't have the cool downs to deal with stampede's dmg then they do not have the cool downs to deal with the abilities that are more powerful.

Thus my point still stands.
Do Stampede pets use Kill Command?
I've never understood how people try and justify the amount of damage stampede does considering the fact that it takes a global to do it. /eyeroll
I tested stampedes damage on the ptr on a full pvp powered ele shaman (no buffs and resil gems) my stampede while sitting on him not being cc'd did 70k damage over it's duration (not including my pet as marksman) now if it doesn't get cc'd the damage is helpful but not overpowered considering the duration..but what player doesn't cc stampede nullifying the damage completely.
You bring mathematical evidence into the discussion on the arena forums? Heresy! Begone with your blasphemous empirical data. Go back to abusing your disgusting leeches and potions, you witch.
70k damage over it's duration (not including my pet as marksman) now if it doesn't get cc'd the damage is helpful but not overpowered


As BM, that 70k becomes 91k just from 30% mastery. Throw in BW, all the damage mods, etc (as well as pet specials) and it's justifiable non-crit damage for a global? I mean, I understand 'its a DPS cooldown' but BM is already bloated with dps cooldowns that perform as adequately as other classes even without stampede.

Like a hunter + x can't keep any target (probably a healer) CC'd for 20+ seconds, anyways, right?

Is it fun to just pop all your CDs, hit Stampede + Murder of Crows, and, for what its worth, auto-attack your targets to 0% with the healer in a CC chain?

I think hunters are in a good spot otherwise, but fighting WTF 10 mobs in a 2v2 / 3v3 is NOT healthy for the game.

Imp swarm is dumb, too.
02/11/2013 10:11 PMPosted by Azlem
70k damage over it's duration (not including my pet as marksman) now if it doesn't get cc'd the damage is helpful but not overpowered


As BM, that 70k becomes 91k just from 30% mastery. Throw in BW, all the damage mods, etc (as well as pet specials) and it's justifiable non-crit damage for a global? I mean, I understand 'its a DPS cooldown' but BM is already bloated with dps cooldowns that perform as adequately as other classes even without stampede.

Like a hunter + x can't keep any target (probably a healer) CC'd for 20+ seconds, anyways, right?

Is it fun to just pop all your CDs, hit Stampede + Murder of Crows, and, for what its worth, auto-attack your targets to 0% with the healer in a CC chain?

I think hunters are in a good spot otherwise, but fighting WTF 10 mobs in a 2v2 / 3v3 is NOT healthy for the game.

Imp swarm is dumb, too.


Even if you round up to 200k damage over 20 seconds, it's not hard to Frost Nova, Howl of Terror, Psychic Scream, Intimidating Shout, Earthbind, Blinding Light, Remorseless Winter, Typhoon, Leg Sweep, or Narrow Escape the pets. If the ability is giving you problems learn how to deal with it, don't just stand there and take it.

Hell, you could even blow another defensive CD. You're a monk, why don't you just ToK the Hunter when he calls the Zoo?

02/11/2013 10:11 PMPosted by Azlem
Imp swarm is dumb, too.


Oh. You're that kind of player.

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