Thoughts about PVP!

General Discussion
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You know, I got to thinking about all the issues within PVP and what Blizzard is trying to do in ways of balancing the playing field.

With the upcoming changes in patch 5.2 with regards to conquest points, I don’t feel as though that is the way to go. I can understand that Blizzard seems to be trying to give everyone the opportunity to get thier gear by allowing points to be giving whether you win or lose. However, I feel that a different approach should be taken.

Currently - and has been for several years - its all about the gear and slim to none about the the actual player versus player. Its a who has the better gear will win attitude and there in is the issue for me at least, and Im sure for others as well.

I love PvP just as much as the next person that loves PvP. But to me, its not about the gear. Its about a fair fight, the ability to overcome your opponent with the skills you have and the tools given to you. You can have all the skill in the world and know how to use your abilities, but 9 times out of 10 it wouldnt matter because the one your fighting has far superior gear than you do. Either that, or god forbid, they have CC up the wazoo!

Max level PVP is honestly, in a crappy state. I actually prefer doing my PVP through the leveling process. This is where the gear has no real PVP stats and honestly, is more fair. Sure at certain levels like 60, 70, etc. you can obtain PVP gear, but the difference between that gear and instance, quest gear is marginal. You basically have two sets of gear. PVE and Honor PVP, not 3-4 sets as you do at max level which consists of PVE, Crafted PVP, Honor PVP and Conquest PVP.

I do like the change to removing the ability to upgrade gear however, and to me, that should have never been put in the game to begin with. Seems to me, the better option would to have been to decrease the point cost of PVP gear and/or invoking the ability to gain points as a quicker rate, much like what they are doing in 5.2.

I personally don’t see any reason for multiple sets of PVP gear. It should only be one set. Sure, you could argue that there is multiple sets of PVE gear, so why not PVP? To that, I answer that if many recall, PVP was never meant to be put in the game in the first place. In fact, if I remember right, there was a time that there was no PVP gear and you had to run what you brung.

Regardless, the fact remains that now, PVP is way more dependent on gear then the actual player and/or skill of the player. You cannot argue that there is no skill in PVP, because there really is. There is skill - to an extent - in PVE as well, but in PVP, the mob (player) your up against is not mapped to a specific path 100% of the time. You don’t know what your opponent is going to do in any given time. But in PVE, you do. You know what the NPC can do in relation to spells and abilities much like you do for PVP, however, unlike PVP, you also know at what point, percentage and time the NPC will do those spells and abilities.

I am not trying to invoke an argument between PVE and PVP players. Im merely giving my opinion and hope some good, constructive discussion can come out of this. I love both worlds of warcraft, PVE and PVP. There are many issues that need to be resolved on both sides of the fence so-to-speak. I prefer more randomness in PVE when it comes to boss kills. Sort of a AI you could say, where the boss is more random and you don’t know when they will use there abilities and have to adjust at a split second, like in PVP.

We, I feel, should move away from the dependency towards gear in PVP and focus more on the person that’s pushing the buttons. And yes, there is way too much CC and that defiantly needs to be addressed.

We all know that PVP will never be 100% balanced, it could never be. But perhaps without the dependency on gear and CC - or less of it - I feel that it could bring us closer to balance, only if even for a few percent towards that 100%.

I read countless posts here ranging from people loathing PVP, to loathing PVE and those loving either/or both. But within all those posts are two common factors, gear and CC that are mentioned more often. Ive read some downright inconceivable ways to "fix" PVP that just made me fall out my chair laughing to some very good and worthwhile ideas that just might work.

People can come up with fantastic ideas, but they do no good if they aren’t put to practice and "tried". Hence, PTR. It seems that PTR is basically only used to test out coming patches and expansions. Why isnt it used to put these great ideas that ARE out there to the test? See what works and what doesn’t? You will never know if it works or doesn’t without trying them. Numbers can tell allot, but it cant tell you everything. Numbers on a spreadsheet cant tell you if a player would use or wouldn’t use ability A or ability B at this time, or that time.

Anyway, I hope that any of you that reply to this post will be constructive. I hope that we can hear from both sides (PVE and PVP players) on what they think about PVP. What would they change? How would they change it and, why would they change it? And yes, you could also do the same and post about PVE as well.

Thanks for reading and have a great day and remember to have fun while playing!
The gear thing is because I assume this is an mmorpg..so the pvp grind in it will be similar to the pve gear grind, progressive. There is a huge disparity in damage etc from the honor gear to the conq gear, if you dont start at the beginning of the xpac you may never catch up. That and you will be blown up in honor gear by the mal geared players. Its a pretty sizable gap that will only widen in 5.2
Agreed. Gear disparity reduces skill-gap, plain and simple, and it discourages people interested in PVP, as they will be destroyed in PVE gear. But I don't know what other system could be implemented to keep people playing, as the gear grind is what motivates people to keep grinding honor.

Maybe cosmetic armor or mounts for higher ranked PVP ratings or honor, along with possibly a trade of honor for gold. This would motivate PVPers to keep PVPing, as they want to get that shiny mount/set of armor, and might want to PVP so they can get gold for stuff like BMAH.
02/13/2013 10:09 AMPosted by Kegroll
I love PvP just as much as the next person that loves PvP. But to me, its not about the gear. Its about a fair fight, the ability to overcome your opponent with the skills you have and the tools given to you.


Mhmm... But this is World of Warcraft, where one making the toon you play become more powerful. By investing time, actually playing the game in a way to have want you want. AKA gear to be competitive.

While the gear grind has blown if you're late, really the new Conquest change coming in 5.2 with the "catch up" is just awesome.

Max level PVP is honestly, in a crappy state. I actually perfer doing my PVP through the leveling process. This is where the gear has no real PVP stats and honestly, is more fair.


Whats fair about different levels and spec's missing core abilities? And as a added toss in, some will go out of there way to gear a low level to cream others in lower end Battlegrounds.

We all know that PVP will never be 100% balanced, it could never be. But perhaps without the dependancy on gear and CC - or less of it - I feel that it could bring us closer to balance, only if even for a few percent towards that 100%.


Having gear with PvP Power and such is the treat. It stops "for the most part" Other options people may find to roll people. "Not Cata, and DS Trinkets...." Because then if everyone has the gear to do Damage and survive that's what pretty much will make it even, Blizzard however is really trying to not just give people the gear to go in and roll, and be done.

Then you'd have free gear people would use to avoid even PvE heroics possibly and hitting up LFR's and what not. Knowing were getting the ability to always catch up via Conquest if we put the effort in, is really amazing.

People can come up with fantastic ideas, but they do no good if they arent put to practice and "tried". Hence, PTR. It seems that PTR is basically only used to test out coming patchs and expansions. Why isnt it used to put these great ideas that ARE out there to the test? See what works and what doesnt? You will never know if it works or doesnt without trying them. Numbers can tell alot, but it cant tell you everything. Numbers on a spreadsheet cant tell you if a player would use or wouldnt use ability A or ability B at this time, or that time.


This bit is a little out there. At any rate, just wanted to try and offer why I believe PvP is making positive changes.
02/13/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Mntindoo
While the gear grind has blown if you're late, really the new Conquest change coming in 5.2 with the "catch up" is just awesome.


Just a note: we'd love to implement the catch-up mechanic sooner, but it isn't planned to be ready before patch 5.3. There are some changes in 5.2 that will still help narrow the gear gap a bit, including better Honor gear, and Conquest Point armor you can purchase without first meeting a seasonal rating requirement. Conquest weapons will become available after hitting a 7,250 requirement for the season.

That said, it's likely that gear is here to stay. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future. That said, if you're into organized PvP and you want to do battle in an environment where everyone is operating with the same tier of gear, then you might want to keep an eye open for when the Tournament Realm begins again.
02/13/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Daxxarri
That said, it's likely that gear is here to stay. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future.


I'm not convinced that random and rated PVP speak to the same people.

I think that, given the choice, some would stick to random battlegrounds and never set foot in arenas. And others would stick to arenas, and skip the honor grind.

So my problem with your statement, Daxxarri, is that you consider that PVP works like PVE, with random battlegrounds being a natural stepping stone to rated PVP, just like 5-man would be a stepping stone to raiding. But I'm not sure that's the case.

So why not offer the choice to the players between:
- a casual, pressure-free environment to PVP with normalised gear and no rewards (which would solve the bots problem by the way) -> Random battlegrounds
- a more involved and organised way to PVP with gear grind and rewards -> Rated PVP
So why not offer the choice to the players between:- a casual, pressure-free environment to PVP with normalised gear and no rewards


The problem there is, people like to be rewarded for their time. While some may use that type of feature, mostly it would go unused.
02/13/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Just a note: we'd love to implement the catch-up mechanic sooner, but it isn't planned to be ready before patch 5.3. There are some changes in 5.2 that will still help narrow the gear gap a bit, including better Honor gear, and Conquest Point armor you can purchase without first meeting a seasonal rating requirement. Conquest weapons will become available after hitting a 7,250 requirement for the season.


Will the catch-up mechanic be retroactive for the season since it won't be released at launch? Meaning, will the extra cap apply only to weeks following 5.3, or do those who missed out in 5.2 benefit as well?

If it's the former, then nothing is really solved for this season in that regard. Though I'm hoping this is intended to be active from the beginning of all seasons after. Please tell me I'm correct on that.

That said, it's likely that gear is here to stay. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future. That said, if you're into organized PvP and you want to do battle in an environment where everyone is operating with the same tier of gear, then you might want to keep an eye open for when the Tournament Realm begins again.


As long as you find ways to keep the gear difference from becoming such a mountain to climb that people otherwise capable of playing on a competitive level have absolutely no chance to catch up, I'm fine with it. The fact that the catch-up system isn't going to be ready in 5.2 is probably going to cause a lot of issues.

Remember, no matter how hard you outgear a PvE boss fight, it isn't going to go to the forums and complain. When players can't catch up due to arbitrary caps and constantly getting steamrolled due to such a gap in gear, it's not fun and arguably bad design. You want increasing power? Fine. Just make sure it's reasonable.
02/13/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Daxxarri
we'd love to implement the catch-up mechanic sooner


Instead of not doing the whatever that is that you are not doing, can you just get arid of like 10% of the bots. So that every AV is not 25% bots.
02/13/2013 11:13 AMPosted by Dalíath
So why not offer the choice to the players between:- a casual, pressure-free environment to PVP with normalised gear and no rewards


The problem there is, people like to be rewarded for their time. While some may use that type of feature, mostly it would go unused.


That's a fair and interesting remark.

I would argue that I constantly see players in random battlegrounds with a full PVP set. They have nothing to gain from playing in randoms, yet here they are.

So I would say that there is a population for this. How large a population? I couldn't say.
02/13/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Nishoba
I would argue that I constantly see players in random battlegrounds with a full PVP set. They have nothing to gain from playing in randoms, yet here they are.


What's the easiest way to participate in PvP? Random Battleground Que ;).
02/13/2013 11:28 AMPosted by Mntindoo
What's the easiest way to participate in PvP? Random Battleground Que ;).


Absolutely! And this ease of access is probably the most luring aspect of random battlegrounds.

But do a lot of PVE players run 5-man for fun after they outgear them? I'm not convinced that's the case. Whereas some casual PVP players still play random battlegrounds after completing their honor set.

So that's why I don't think it would be fair to think of random battlegrounds solely as a stepping stone to rated PVP in the same way we think of 5-mans as a stepping stone to raiding.
02/13/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Daxxarri
While the gear grind has blown if you're late, really the new Conquest change coming in 5.2 with the "catch up" is just awesome.


Just a note: we'd love to implement the catch-up mechanic sooner, but it isn't planned to be ready before patch 5.3. There are some changes in 5.2 that will still help narrow the gear gap a bit, including better Honor gear, and Conquest Point armor you can purchase without first meeting a seasonal rating requirement. Conquest weapons will become available after hitting a 7,250 requirement for the season.

That said, it's likely that gear is here to stay. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future. That said, if you're into organized PvP and you want to do battle in an environment where everyone is operating with the same tier of gear, then you might want to keep an eye open for when the Tournament Realm begins again.


I was wondering why the beyond was put into your "PvP Gear in 5.2 and Beyond" Draxxarri and now I see. Way to keep stringing us along with vague statements.
Since now I see your "PvP Gear in 5.2 and Beyond"blog is really at statement on the future of PvP . I feel more disappointed than ever that nothing was said about dealing with random(non-rated) battleground. Does blizzard even care that most of us hate being forced into a battleground against ridiculously overpowered opponents. BG's are the only way to gain honor and they are very demoralizing. Doing a random battleground is sometimes like attempting heroic raids with dungeon blues. Not a good experience.

Could we please get some kind of system that gives us a fair fight in random battlegrounds?
02/13/2013 11:35 AMPosted by Nishoba
What's the easiest way to participate in PvP? Random Battleground Que ;).


Absolutely! And this ease of access is probably the most luring aspect of random battlegrounds.

But do a lot of PVE players run 5-man for fun after they outgear them? I'm not convinced that's the case. Whereas some casual PVP players still play random battlegrounds after completing their honor set.

So that's why I don't think it would be fair to think of random battlegrounds solely as a stepping stone to rated PVP in the same way we think of 5-mans as a stepping stone to raiding.


You do realize that in 5.3 "Tyrannical Gladiator’s gear can be purchased for Honor after 27,000 Conquest Points are earned for the season. (5.3)".
So you can look forward to more players queuing random with full PvP gear. Blizzard is so much in support of have gear imbalanced in random BG they are now encouraging geared players to rejoin the random BG system to earn offspec pvp gear.
02/13/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Daxxarri
While the gear grind has blown if you're late, really the new Conquest change coming in 5.2 with the "catch up" is just awesome.


Just a note: we'd love to implement the catch-up mechanic sooner, but it isn't planned to be ready before patch 5.3. There are some changes in 5.2 that will still help narrow the gear gap a bit, including better Honor gear, and Conquest Point armor you can purchase without first meeting a seasonal rating requirement. Conquest weapons will become available after hitting a 7,250 requirement for the season.

That said, it's likely that gear is here to stay. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future. That said, if you're into organized PvP and you want to do battle in an environment where everyone is operating with the same tier of gear, then you might want to keep an eye open for when the Tournament Realm begins again.


I have really limited PvP experience, so I can only offer my opinion as it relates to other games. In PvE, the goal is character progression via gear. You do largely static encounters many times to collect upgrades for all of your gear. This in turn allows you to do more difficult encounters, etc. etc.

People DON'T PvP to collect gear. The dynamic combat against real human competitors provides the draw to play, and people only care about gear insomuch as you HAVE to have PvP gear to PvP with any significant success.

When looking at other multiplayer games, in many there is some sort of character progression (weapon unlocks, prestiges, etc.), but the primary draw is the dynamic of playing against real humans.

Trying to force the same gear dynamics for PvE and PvP has detrimental effects in that everyone who PvPs frequently has roughly the same gear (and thus the games between frequent players are determined by skill/game balance) and anyone who PvPs infrequently faces a gear deficit that is almost impossible to overcome. This has the adverse effect of driving away many players who's first taste of PvP is doing laughable damage to opponents who roflstomp them with little effort.

Blizzard obviously recognized that the gap was very large and at the start of MoP introduced some features like innate resilience, but they clearly haven't gone far enough.

This problem is widely apparent across the entire PvP spectrum, from stepping foot into WSG at low level (and getting 2-shotted by people with heirlooms) to BGs/Arena/World PvP at lvl 90.
02/13/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Daxxarri
While the gear grind has blown if you're late, really the new Conquest change coming in 5.2 with the "catch up" is just awesome.


Just a note: we'd love to implement the catch-up mechanic sooner, but it isn't planned to be ready before patch 5.3. There are some changes in 5.2 that will still help narrow the gear gap a bit, including better Honor gear, and Conquest Point armor you can purchase without first meeting a seasonal rating requirement. Conquest weapons will become available after hitting a 7,250 requirement for the season.

That said, it's likely that gear is here to stay. I've elaborated on this at length elsewhere, but it boils down to the fact that, even with gear differentials, World of Warcraft PvP can be very competitive. Gear and getting more powerful via gear, is a big part of World of Warcraft, and it isn't likely to be going away for the foreseeable future. That said, if you're into organized PvP and you want to do battle in an environment where everyone is operating with the same tier of gear, then you might want to keep an eye open for when the Tournament Realm begins again.


Shear blindness!

The gear problem isnt the aquiring it. The problem is there are 2 many levels of it!

Freash 90 can get crafted set. He will of course get smoked in every battle so why bother wasting gold on it. If youre gonna die fast you just save gold and use pve gear.

You grind honor set. You still get smoked.

You are on a crap server with little to no RBg teams and arenas are boring as watching flies mate so you cant seem to ever get any Conquest pvp gear which is the good stuff.

So with 3 levels of gear the solution is to add more??? We dont need more crap we need less! PVP needs 2 sets of gear. Honor and crafted. PERIOD! People PVP because its fun to run BGs! The ones who whine about the casuals wanted a competitive gave are the no lifer nerds who play 13 hours a day and can get the top tier set in no time at all. Those people only care about facerolling and not one bit about being able to beat someone because of skill and good team work. They are the ones with the entitlement attitudes! The im entitled to faceroll you and make the game miserable for as many as possible because I have no life and can grind gear all day from my mommas basement!

2 Sets will fix it. You can created more chants and gems for the extra honor you earn after geared up. Its not rocket science unless youre one of the no life nerds who has no other joy in life other than facerolling in WOW.
02/13/2013 10:09 AMPosted by Kegroll
its all about the gear and slim to none about the the actual player versus player.


Thats why ppl have team mates and CC.
Playing time in TBC / WotLK era 16-20hrs a day everyday bcoz my main spec was viable in PvP

Playing time in Cata era 10-14hrs a day everyday bocz my main was reduced to crap in PvP, so I focused on leveling alt's till the end of Cata 10 lvl 85's.

Playing time in MoP at the release 8-12 hrs a day everyday just to level main & see content.
After reaching 90 on main spent 6-8 hrs a day everyday doing dailys on main & leveling alts to 90.

Playing time less than 6 months into MoP 1-4 hrs a week maybe. Why is so? PvP for main has been removed via Blizzards stance on Prot spec's not being viable, the Daily / Daily's Grind for rep isn't worth the time & effort on main. Nor is it worth the time on the few spec I enjoy outside my main.

I know some will say burn out or boredom. I believe it's because Blizzard made my main spec junk in PvP therefore a large part of the game became undesirable for me play anymore.
Removing the 'upgrade' option for gear with conquest/honor points is a good start. The pvp gear is spread over way too large of an ilevel range as it is.

I have a lot of experience right now with guildmates needing two wins in two specific battlegrounds and no pvp gear at all. At this point, making crafted gear is a downgrade in stamina, armour, and every primary and secondary stat in return for a piddly amount of pvp stats. Those pvp stats aren't enough to make a dent in the massive amount of damage coming from the upgraded elite conquest weapons.

The barrier to entry for pvp is very high and right now there are a lot of people who don't pvp (or don't pvp on their raiding toon - who would gear more than one toon in pvp? it is painful to gear once) who are suddenly discovering that pvp is now required for progression raiding. (I'll leave you to imagine the general attitude and comments that exist regarding this... most are not forum appropriate).

The current guild strategy is to get 5 man groups with 4 people who have pvp gear and one person who needs to be carried. It is in general not fun for any of the 5 people involved.

The barrier for entry is high for people who don't want to be there (but must) but also for the people who want to engage in pvp activity but were not able to jump on the giant treadmill of gear grinding that is pvp gearing at exactly the beginning of the season. The current situation is "start the first week of the expansion and cap conquest every week or be cannon fodder in every pvp activity you do". It might be fun for the people with the cannons, but it isn't from the perspective of the fodder.

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