SoJ Revert.

Paladin
Instead of changing the baseline cost to be less holy power or giving ret 1 hp all the time...I was thinking something like ferals glyph of savage roar, except for inquisition, where it can be cast with no hp, but will consume hp if you have any...anyone who plays feral understands how crucial that is. This way inquisition isn't a matter of managing hp anymore, but just keeping up on the buff itself
02/16/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Lobster
Retribution's PVP 4 pc bonus needs to be changed to "You maintain at least 1 Holy Power at all times."

If they thought that was the right direction they would have made TV/Inq/WoG max out at 2HP instead of 3HP and called it a day. Additionally our current (soon to be previous) 4pc bonus already gives us 1 free HP in combat every 8sec. Hasn't really made a difference.

Our HP combat regen is constant and mostly reliable. There is no reason those abilities need to be cheaper. If you really want something like that, take Divine Purpose and get free HP that way.


Just to add to that, from a playstyle standpoint, I'm not really sure I'd enjoy lowering the amount of holy power needed to use finishers. Three seems just about right to me in that department. When you start lowering that, you end up messing with the entire rotation to the point that you end up with a lot of abilities you can't use fast enough, which to me at least just feels wrong.
02/15/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Jackishi
I have to admit, the damage felt cool when everything went well, but that was the problem - it was really, really unreliable on the PTR. While you were building stacks, you weren't putting any real additional pressure on your target, and it was hard to line up having 3 Holy Power AND 5 stacks of SoJ on your target, or else trying to make sure you weren't wasting anymore stacks on your target (for example, you had 5 stacks on him but only 1 Holy Power, which happened often). Not to mention, it also meant Inquisition became that much more important to keep refreshed to have Justice's strike benefit from it.


I dont see a problem with it. It did increase linearly, so it really didnt matter if you hit a TV with 1, 3 or 5 stacks, it would always do the same damage/stack. We could have more stacks to avoid losing too much or the damage being buffed a little to compensate that or even a Ascendance-like mechanic with 5HP. There were solutions to solve the problems, but then it's much easier to revert and give the passive damage of SoJ a 25% buff.
02/16/2013 11:25 AMPosted by Bravehearth
Just to add to that, from a playstyle standpoint, I'm not really sure I'd enjoy lowering the amount of holy power needed to use finishers. Three seems just about right to me in that department. When you start lowering that, you end up messing with the entire rotation to the point that you end up with a lot of abilities you can't use fast enough, which to me at least just feels wrong.


The rotation...seriously? The rotation is messed up in a PVP setting anyways because of all the kiting, stuns, fears, disorients, etc.

And since this is a PVP gear set bonus it would in no way disrupt the true rotation or dps numbers for a PVE setting.

02/16/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Lobster
If they thought that was the right direction they would have made TV/Inq/WoG max out at 2HP instead of 3HP and called it a day


This would also affect PVE, so no, they would not have.

02/16/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Lobster
Our HP combat regen is constant and mostly reliable. There is no reason those abilities need to be cheaper. If you really want something like that, take Divine Purpose and get free HP that way.


Our HP combat regen is constant and reliable when we are in melee range of our target. Unfortunately, our uptime on target is not constant and reliable. Our overall dps is also "mostly reliable". But in a PVP setting, this just does not translate to effective damage.

Our overall dmg is designed to include Art of War procs, but AoW only occurs through auto-attacks. We also have Crusader Strike which requires melee range. Unfortunately, we have what is arguably the worst uptime of melee classes (Enhance might be worse) in PVP.

Now add in stuns, fears, incapacitates, cyclones, etc to simply running after a target who has blinked, disengaged, dashed, sprinted, heroic leaped, been life gripped, etc. There goes even more Inquisition duration, so there goes even more HP spent not casting TV or WoG.

What this means is that we face a hefty decrease in HP generation in a PVP setting as opposed to what we see in PVE, and that decrease is compounded by the fact that we MUST maintain Inquisition or lose even more damage and survival.

As for taking Divine Purpose, Rets already have to contend with the RNG of Art of War in those small windows of being on their target and a crit chance that needs to be buffed by 10%. You'll have to forgive me if I don't jump at the chance to throw even more RNG into the picture.

4pc bonus already gives us 1 free HP in combat every 8sec. Hasn't really made a difference.


There is a world of difference between this and what I suggested.

The current 4 pc bonus is only gained once every 8 seconds. Given the current pace of the game, players are going from max health to being dead in less time than that. Of course it hasn't made a difference.

I dont see a problem with it. It did increase linearly, so it really didnt matter if you hit a TV with 1, 3 or 5 stacks, it would always do the same damage/stack. We could have more stacks to avoid losing too much or the damage being buffed a little to compensate that or even a Ascendance-like mechanic with 5HP. There were solutions to solve the problems, but then it's much easier to revert and give the passive damage of SoJ a 25% buff.


It did increase linearly, which is partly why I was loathe to write it off as a bad ability just yet until I tested. Once I did though (or at least its most stable implementation), it was...not great. Even with the snare still bugged into it, like I said, you weren't doing much pressure to the target. It could've used some passive weapon damage on the target for additional pressure while you were building stacks, or else like you said, added stacks, buffed damage, or otherwise, but they tried testing it out way too late in the PTR to really have any elegant or effective ideas implemented.

In the end, I really think Wings and SoJ's weapon damage being buffed was the better solution. It doesn't force us to relearn how to play, doesn't lose us our baseline snare (which I will happily seal twist to when I need it) and provides a venue for damage that makes all our level 75 talents tenable.
Given how much weaker Ret is outside of CDs compared to other classes and how its high visibility pretty much guarantees you will be shut down when you cast it, Avenging Wrath really should be 2 min baseline.

Retribution's PVP 4 pc bonus needs to be changed to "You maintain at least 1 Holy Power at all times."

Ret's problem is sustained. This can be attributed to several reasons, but in a PVP setting a large part of this is because you must first build up to cast Inquisition. The damage dealt while generating those first 3 Holy Power is already needlessly gimped.

So you get those 3 Holy Power and cast Inquisition. Now you must build back up to at least 3 Holy Power again before you can even consider Templar's Verdict, but because of the inherent cooldowns of our Holy Power generators and Ret's history of struggling to reach their target, this will take some time.

By the time you are able to generate the necessary Holy Power, there's a very good chance that you will not be within melee range of your target. Kiting, stuns, fears, etc ensure that the majority of the duration of Inquisition will have been spent in pursuit of the target. So by the time a Ret is finally able to get within melee range of their target, Holy Power will most likely have to be spent on Inquisition again instead of Templar's Verdict.

To further compound the issue, Inquisition is also necessary for survival, as the additional 10% crit affects our heals as well.

In short, a PVP setting punishes the current Ret mechanics because Ret's damage and survival are gimped by Ret's need to buff their damage and survival.

Changing the PVP 4 pc bonus to allowing Ret to maintain at least 1 Holy Power helps PVP Ret in multiple ways.

Having that constant 1 Holy Power alleviates a lot of the punishment of having to maintain Inquisition. Inquisition fell off during a CC? You will now always have at least 1 Holy Power to get the buff back up and running so those first 3 HP generators aren't needlessly gimped. Even if you had 3 HP, casting Inquisition would still leave you with 1 HP to assist in getting back to what it is that Ret is supposed to do, which brings me to my next point.

This also means more frequent access to Templar's Verdict. More frequent access to Templar's Verdict is a BUFF TO SUSTAINED DAMAGE.

In addition to Templar's Verdict, this would give more frequent access to Word of Glory. Given Ret's dependence on Divine Shield for survival and the fact that it can be removed by 2 of the most dominant classes, Rets are easily trained. More Word of Glory casts would at least help to delay the inevitable.

A counterpoint to Word of Glory, however, would be the need to give WoG the TV treatment. Unless WoG were only able to be cast with 3 HP, a constant 1 HP could be abused by spamming 1 HP WoGs, which could be further abused when coupled with Divine Purpose.

And finally, though least important imo, this would make Pursuit of Justice a more enticing option for those Paladins who can't Holy Shock themselves to a higher run speed.


I think you're on to something here...
02/17/2013 04:24 AMPosted by Lobster
No reason to mess it up further with your set bonus idea.


First of all, the kiting and control of a PVP battle pretty much render a Retribution "rotation" non-existant. Second, it's not even a true rotation so much as a priority system. Do you also complain about Art of War procs messing up your rotation? How about Divine Purpose procs?

02/17/2013 04:24 AMPosted by Lobster
An issue with melee uptime would stem primarily from our active mobility model and the fact that we have to sacrifice damage to use our baseline snare, not from our resource model.


True. But what makes a gap-closer worthwhile? Being able to inflict meaningful damage for that short period of time while on your target. Without major cooldowns, Ret simply can not do this.

So while maintaining at least 1 HP at all times does not directly give us more uptime, it assists us in staying alive until we DO get to the target, and it assists us in actually being able to pressure our target when we finally do catch them by giving us increased sustained damage.

02/17/2013 04:24 AMPosted by Lobster
And that's fine. By speccing into Divine Purpose a ret is choosing RNG over a third cooldown. I'm just saying if you really want free HP, Divine Purpose is the way to go. It's quite underrated.


But won't this RNG mess up my -ROTATION-??? Really starting to feel like you're just being disruptive instead of offering meaningful debate...

That's the thing though: it would be disruptive to PVE. Having different costs for your major rotational abilities between PVP and PVE is disruptive. If the PVP bonus mathed out to be a DPS increase in PVE, it would become desirable for raiding.


Considering the hefty difference in iLvl between PVP and PVE gear now, I'm pretty sure no set bonus imaginable would make a PVP set more viable for PVE.
02/17/2013 03:14 PMPosted by Lobster
An overpowered set bonus is not the way to increase our sustained damage, especially when there are other much easier and much more universal ways to do accomplish this.


Ret is weak without major CDs. Ret has poor survival. Ret has far less uptime on targets than successful melee classes thanks to the lack of a true gap-closer, and has less impact on the target during uptime because of the ramp-up nature of HP generation and the cooldowns of the spells that generate it.

Compare this to Warriors, DKs, Druids, and Rogues who are INSTANTLY on target and can IMMEDIATELY unleash heavy, front-loaded damage.

I firmly believe that my suggestion is in no way OP, but would merely bring Rets up to a competitive level of melee class in PVP.

02/17/2013 03:14 PMPosted by Lobster
Our resources are simply not a problem, and thus, are not the key to solving our sustained damage.


As I have already pointed out, HP is required for TV, WoG, and maintaining Inquisition which is a necessary buff to both our damage and survival.

We start the fight at a disadvantage because the first 5 seconds are spent just trying to get Inquisition up. Since it is not yet active those first 5 seconds are that much weaker. Once it is up, we have to spend a good deal of time building HP again before we are ever able to spend HP on dealing damage.

The amount of time required to build up for Inquisition and then for a 3 HP spell is simply a luxury that Retribution can not afford in a PVP setting. It is by this reasoning that I assure you that Retribution's resources are indeed a problem.

Changing the PVP 4 pc bonus to allowing Ret to maintain at least 1 Holy Power helps PVP Ret in multiple ways.

Having that constant 1 Holy Power alleviates a lot of the punishment of having to maintain Inquisition. Inquisition fell off during a CC? You will now always have at least 1 Holy Power to get the buff back up and running so those first 3 HP generators aren't needlessly gimped. Even if you had 3 HP, casting Inquisition would still leave you with 1 HP to assist in getting back to what it is that Ret is supposed to do, which brings me to my next point.

This also means more frequent access to Templar's Verdict. More frequent access to Templar's Verdict is a BUFF TO SUSTAINED DAMAGE.

In addition to Templar's Verdict, this would give more frequent access to Word of Glory. Given Ret's dependence on Divine Shield for survival and the fact that it can be removed by 2 of the most dominant classes, Rets are easily trained. More Word of Glory casts would at least help to delay the inevitable.

A counterpoint to Word of Glory, however, would be the need to give WoG the TV treatment. Unless WoG were only able to be cast with 3 HP, a constant 1 HP could be abused by spamming 1 HP WoGs, which could be further abused when coupled with Divine Purpose.

And finally, though least important imo, this would make Pursuit of Justice a more enticing option for those Paladins who can't Holy Shock themselves to a higher run speed.
02/16/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Jackishi
. It could've used some passive weapon damage on the target for additional pressure while you were building stacks


SoJ' passive damage isnt that awesome to really consider that it add pressure in PvP, it would be like 3-4k of damage max. In that aspect I think SoJ 2.0 would be better, even though we had to build it first - after all it would be around 80-120% of TV' physical damage itself (i.e. without the mastery damage) with Inquisition up.

The snare should never be discarded and AW to 2min is somewhat unrelated to the SoJ revert (since GC also considered a increase in SoJ' base damage to 20% weap. damage), so in the end, the revert is a step back imo.

I also think he just removed it because it would make PvErs seal twist all the time to keep Censure and Justice with 5 stacks, so to not make it useless in PvP to prevent seal twist in PvE, he just discarded the idea.. although buffing SoT' initial damage and adding the snare back into SoJ would solve imo.
Well, when I say pressure, I mean things like in the case of Seal of Truth's sustained tick damage or Justice's snare plus the right now damage as opposed to hopefully in the future damage.

02/18/2013 02:47 AMPosted by Syros
The snare should never be discarded and AW to 2min is somewhat unrelated to the SoJ revert (since GC also considered a increase in SoJ' base damage to 20% weap. damage), so in the end, the revert is a step back imo.


Well, that was the thing - they intended (and with a lot of volume, might I add) that once the new SoJ was working properly, they would remove the snare and leave it at just that, a stacking debuff that caused bonus damage with TV. When it didn't pan out, that's when they decided to buff AW instead and consider buffing up SoJ's passive damage (that hasn't been determined yet, so for right now I'm only looking at the AW buff). I don't view it as a step back, though I do say it's a bit of a bandaid fix for something they couldn't fix on time (but an acceptable one at that).

02/18/2013 02:47 AMPosted by Syros
I also think he just removed it because it would make PvErs seal twist all the time to keep Censure and Justice with 5 stacks, so to not make it useless in PvP to prevent seal twist in PvE, he just discarded the idea.. although buffing SoT' initial damage and adding the snare back into SoJ would solve imo.


I actually agree that might have been part of the reason - it was too risky adding this mechanic without seeing how it could potentially affect PvE DPS if someone found some wonky way to use both SoT and SoJ, and there was no easy way to counter such a strat besides making the whole mechanic untenable (some thoughts were seal switching removing stacks or that awful idea to add a 20 second cooldown to Seals, neither of which I'm fond of).

If you are fond of this mechanic, I suggest you try it for yourself on the PTR if you haven't already. I agree with the principle that it IS an interesting idea, but it's too clunky right now as it is and we have roughly two to three weeks left for patch, and I don't think that's nearly enough time to be reinventing the wheel for us, let alone testing and working out the kinks.
02/18/2013 03:30 AMPosted by Jackishi
Well, when I say pressure, I mean things like in the case of Seal of Truth's sustained tick damage or Justice's snare plus the right now damage as opposed to hopefully in the future damage.


Yeah I know, I just think that adding a small damage to it (5.2' SoJ) wouldnt really make any difference since SoJ '1.0' itself has a very weak 'passive' damage (and SoJ 2.0 would have it even weaker, considering that it should stay below SoT' overall damage).

02/18/2013 03:30 AMPosted by Jackishi
When it didn't pan out, that's when they decided to buff AW instead and consider buffing up SoJ's passive damage


Look at it, this way: SoJ was never intended to be, DPS wise, better than SoT neither in 5.0 nor in 5.2 (and it isnt in both live and PTR - I assume). So they could keep SoJ 2.0 AND AW to 2min as the set bonus since SoJ overall damage would be roughly the same as it is now. They are unrelated in that way, so we could have both.

Or, probably more important: Reducing AW' CD would help our DPSing, but wouldnt help making SoJ more used in PvP then SoT (the mainly aimed 'fix' of this change, since, again, SoJ' damage is still going to be below SoT'), so again, unrelated changes.

02/18/2013 03:30 AMPosted by Jackishi
they would remove the snare and leave it at just that, a stacking debuff that caused bonus damage with TV


02/18/2013 03:30 AMPosted by Jackishi
it was too risky adding this mechanic without seeing how it could potentially affect PvE DPS if someone found some wonky way to use both SoT and SoJ


And thats why I fear that GC doesnt know what to do with our spec.

Removing a PvP-feature from a intended PvP seal that has problems to be chosen a "to-go PvP seal" is weird, to say the least; with no words on why.

And then making a change to support seal twisting, even though they dont want to make players do that (and proposing drastic changes to prevent it) and when 5.1 Seals' mechanics already prevent this from happening.

No wonder why most people didnt like the change and it got reverted. I still would like a similar mechanic though, TV hits for way too low.
02/18/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Lobster
And our resource regen is sufficient to power all 3 of those finishers.


Let's look at Feral Druids and Savage Roar since the concept very closely resembles Retribution and Inquisition.

Ferals can glyph to be able to cast Savage Roar (which only buffs dmg, not dmg AND survival) with 0 combo points for a 10 second duration. Ferals can cast for free what costs Rets 1 HP.

1 combo point nets an 18 second duration, almost the equivalent of 2 HP spent on Inquisition.

They generate additional combo points when they crit, and they crit very often. 1 combo point generator will frequently net 24 seconds of Savage Roar, near the equivalent of a maxed out Inquisition.

Fewer combo points (frequently none at all) spent on a buff to dmg means more points spent on FINISHERS.

Conveniently enough for Ferals, this more frequent access to finishers also translates into free heals/cyclone, where Rets have to choose between damage and healing.

If you still think Ret's resources are fine, you're only fooling yourself.

And you know what they can do outside of melee range? Nothing.


Really? No other melee besides Ret can do anything outside of melee range? So Moonfire, Wrath, Bearform FF, Howling Blast, Deathcoil, Deadly Throw, Cloak and Dagger, Shuriken Toss, Heroic Throw, and Storm Bolt, are all in my head? I won't drag Enhance into the picture because they suffer from many of the same proglems that plague Ret.

02/18/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Lobster
I think your problem is you don't like spending resources on anything but damage


I really don't see how you would come to this conclusion when my argument has clearly been that we need more frequent accesss to both TV and WoG in PVP.

And I say more frequent because changing the 4 pc PVP bonus to allow Ret to maintain 1 HP at all times is the simplest change that provides the most help to many of the problems that hinder Ret in PVP.

There are other solutions, of course. But it would likely require a number of solutions that would require far more work and testing to get numbers right, and would likely spill over into PVE.

02/18/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Lobster
We sacrifice direct damage for healing and utility. It's sort of a paladin thing.


Look again to Ferals. Leader of the Pack grants passive healing with no sacrifice. Predatory Swiftness grants healing with no sacrifice save the GCD spent to insta-cast. Nature's Vigil grants passive healing with no sacrifice.

The sacrifices that Rets must make are indeed a Paladin thing. Unfortunately, the "Paladin thing" is being 2 expansions(or more) behind every other melee in terms of mechanics design.

02/18/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Lobster
If you have a problem keeping Inq up most of the time in PVP you should invest in a good timer addon. Your inability to properly manage your resources and rotation is not just cause to implement an arbitrary and overpowered set bonus.


I don't have a problem keeping Inquisition up, nor do I need an addon to manage the timer.

Your desperate attempt to insult my ability to play(for lack of any real argument?) does not change the fact that the costs of Inquisition, TV, and WoG and the inadequate pay-off of all 3 spells in relation to those costs outside of major cooldowns that are easily shut down offers Rets a sub-par performance in PVP compared to what other melee classes can bring to the table.
You haven't read anything I've said about static/free resources, have you? You do not understand how resources work and until you do, you won't understand why your idea is terrible for ret and terrible for the game.


Lobster, you really need to work on expressing a difference of opinion without always resorting to insulting the person you disagree with by attacking their skill level or intelligence/comprehension.

There are differences between Ret and Feral, but the key similarities of generating and spending Combo Points while maintaining a buff that costs Combo Points is 100% relevant to a debate about whether or not a class has sufficient resource generation to meet the demands of a PVP battle. The fact that, generally speaking, Feral has been quite successful this season and Ret has not been successful gives even more merit to the comparison.

You mentioned the higher cost of Feral's combo point generators and the energy cost of their finishers. I believe these are virtually irrelevent for a couple of reasons.

First, Ferals have the option to generate combo points at a slower pace on par with what Rets can generate if they wish to conserve energy, whereas Rets lack the option to ignore the cooldowns of HP generators.

Second, Ferals also have multiple tools to alleviate Energy costs such as Tiger's Fury, Omen of Clarity, Primal Fury, Berserk, and Soul of the Forest, which when combined with Feral's high crit chance and extra CP from Leader of the Pack, effectively put Ferals ability not only to generate CP, but also to use Finishers at an equal, if not greater rate than Ret, even while requiring 2 more points to reach the maximum CP cost of those Finishers.

Giving Rets a 4 pc PVP bonus of maintaining at least 1 HP at all times would be no more OP than the combination of the multiple passive abilities that Ferals have that give them free resources.

TV and DS require 3 HP. I already recommended that if the idea were implemented that WoG also require 3 HP for Rets. All that leaves is Inquisition being able to be cast for free, which would still result in a 2 seconds shorter duration than Feral's free Savage Roar.

What I am suggesting is indeed a static resource. Can a static resource be a bad move for a spec? Of course, though in my opinion it would only be a bad move when applied to a spec that is already performing well or if implemented with no limitations.

So is this static resource being suggested for a spec that is already performing well? I think the entirety of the WoW community, Devs included, would agree that PVP Ret is not performing well. And can this static resource be spammed to bring the pain of infinite bee stings or apply heals that equate to bandaids to wounds that equate to severed limbs? No.

What it would do is buff the sustained damage, survival, and the ability to off-heal in a PVP setting to a spec that is under-performing by reducing the HP cost of initial finishers by 33%, all with a single change.

Is it a perfect change? Of course not. But I feel it would be a solid change that would put the spec in a competitive place without the drawback of the designing, coding, testing, adjusting, and reverting of multiple other changes that would be necessary to accomplish the same thing.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum