My beef with Shadow Priests: Healing.

Priest
This is going to sound crazy but I really hate the concept of hybrids. Hate them. For some people, hybrids are absolutely the only way to enjoy the game.

But seriously, get your healing spec out of my damage spec. I don't want to bubble and flash heal in a pinch. I don't want to use healing as a method to balance myself in PVP. And when I have to heal I get yanked out of shadow form and if i'm lacking caffeine i'll damn well forget to get back into shadow form until I realize i'm casting things that don't make sense.

And that's the catch 22 for me. I don't want to be a prima donna mage or a dopey Warlock, I want to be a shadow priest. I want to melt faces, but that's it. My survivability shouldn't mean I temporarily forgo my evilness so I can pump out some holy magic.

I think this game would be better off (and better balanced) is Blizzard fully walled off one spec from another. Warriors wont sit in defensive stance with shield wall while they pick their noses at you. Ret Paladins wouldn't bubble and flash heal, Ferals wouldn't flutter around with pushbacks and bear (oh !@#$) mode when threatened.

The trinity should be more clearly defined IMO. Shadow would be served best by being shadow 100% and it would make me enjoy the class more.
I think clearly defining everything as either DPS, tank, or healer would actually make the game shallower and less interesting. Furthermore, I think walling off Shadow from the other side of priesting would really make it redundant with Affliction.
02/14/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Nixxe
I think clearly defining everything as either DPS, tank, or healer would actually make the game shallower and less interesting. Furthermore, I think walling off Shadow from the other side of priesting would really make it redundant with Affliction.


I feel like a simplification of the specs should be in order to better balance them. That or they can go the way of 'every spec can do everything!' but that would water down the unique feeling of a spec.

And I imagine you have a point that removing the healing/priesty aspect of shadow would turn it into affliction, but that really opens my eyes to the fact that spriest could use a bit more work. Being Diet Warlock or Warlock Lite with self heals does not make a compelling experience.

Again, I doubt i'll get a lot of agreement. I just think Blizz could solve PVP balancing issues by gutting utility classes entirely and properly defining the specs. If all dedicated specs are played properly they're usually the better oiled machines in both PVE and PVP. There is a large base of players who will never go for that as evidence points to hybrid classes being as popular as they are. But next time someone goes to the forums and says 'boo hoo I was fighting a warrior and i got him to 30 percent health and then he hit his sword and shield macro and became unkillable with his defensive cooldowns', they should consider putting specs in their respective places.

Also I hate healing and being required to heal to play shadow effectively.
First, every class except hunters I believe have some form of healing. So you would have to remove all healing abilities from all classes except for true healers. This would not make the game more simple because the burst abilities of certain specs would become even more pronounced.

Second, the game you are proposing would have very little flavor, IMO of course because you want to put your PVP into my PVE. They have removed a lot of the healing from the hybrids already which I kinda miss to be honest. I liked being able to have most of the base heal abilities in 5 mans in a pinch.

Third, the game doesn't need to be made any easier because its "too hard". Yeah this month warriors are crazy, spriest are doing better in PVP (though to me they are finally more balanced IMHO) and warlocks are too squishy. You know what? I like that it changes all the time because the game is not static. You have to go with the flow, sometimes your at the top, sometimes your not.

You can either accept it and enjoy your class and try to succeed even when its having trouble, or you can roll the FOTM. Asking the game to be gutted so its more static is a horrible idea to me.
Basically make everything the same?
If they did that, they'd definitely have to give the Priest Class a Holy DPS spec. I'm sorry, but it's true. I have an 85 priest I nolonger play (He's shadow, but that's not the reason. I made him a Goblin, and shortly after, just lost interest). There are a lot of us that chose Priest, whether for the first time or the 10th (Don't ask) that want to be more of an "Inquisition", Bring the "Might of the Light" type Priest.

BTW, I'd LOVE a true Holy DPS spec. Even if it was just a major glyph to change the asthetics of Shadow or a talent point.
First, every class except hunters I believe have some form of healing. So you would have to remove all healing abilities from all classes except for true healers. This would not make the game more simple because the burst abilities of certain specs would become even more pronounced.



Well I believe DPS specs should maybe have one or two heals on a 2 min cooldown. Some could have passive heals when certain triggers are met. It'd also make sense for a Spriest to make a heal that actually makes sense for the spec. Something shadowy.

this is no way inhibits my ability to play this class and I still love it. I just think devs will constantly fight between utility/complexity in classes and balance for PVP in particular. And myself personally would like to roll a spec on a class and play that spec, not dabs of the other specs.
Ultimecia, They would need to build a new class around the name. We are Shadow Priests, which as the name indicates we are PRIESTS (holy men with divine power) who have let themselves fall into the darkness and allow the evil to manifest itself into shadow powers. Many old school games take this as betrayl of the light and the penalty is the loss of most of their priestly powers. Shadow priests fit the arch perfectly, we don't have access to many of the holy powers that Discipline and Holy priests have but we still maintain a little of what defines us as priests. If a priest lacked all healing potential, excluding maybe vampiric embrace, what part of "priest" would we fulfill? In all reality we would just be a shadow mage/warlock.
02/15/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Ultimécia
Well I believe DPS specs should maybe have one or two heals on a 2 min cooldown. Some could have passive heals when certain triggers are met.


This results in one of two things.

1: The class with the healing trigger or the two min CD outlasts the one who doesn't have any heals, and wins most of the time

2: A class with a tremendous amount of dmg output (see Frost DK's right now) obliterates (pun intended) everything that can't heal through the dmg.

Healing provides survival for classes who might not crank out the burst but can sustain dmg. Unfortunately, it seems as though Blizz just pulls ideas out of a hat and has no rhyme or reason behind giving classes heals, how much a class can heal for, which classes can heal for quite a bit, and what classes need the higher dmg. Look at warriors, they have a passive heal, that requires no thought whatsoever by the warrior, and it can keep them up through a decent amount of dmg. I have seen second wind keep a warrior alive through a full stack of dot's as he LoS'd until they fell off. This is the same class that can do 200-300k in a matter of 3sec.
02/14/2013 09:55 PMPosted by Ultimécia
But seriously, get your healing spec out of my damage spec. I don't want to bubble and flash heal in a pinch. I don't want to use healing as a method to balance myself in PVP. And when I have to heal I get yanked out of shadow form and if i'm lacking caffeine i'll damn well forget to get back into shadow form until I realize i'm casting things that don't make sense.


Awww heck no. They already nerfed the living heck out of shadow healing as it is.

I actually LIKE the option of having healing spells available at my disposal. For one, it's saved my behind plenty of times when I sometimes overpull mobs or get adds when I'm questing.

For another, healing instances as shadow while leveling helped me to become a MUCH better healer in the long run b/c I had to make do with a smaller toolbox than the healing specs, thus, I had to dole my healing out in a smart manner. Once dual spec came out and I could tack on a healing spec, I was able to heal all but the dumbest of groups without problems.

And the whole shadow healing thing has a soft spot in my heart b/c it's how I got into my last two guilds. They picked me up as a DPS for one of their 5-man guild runs (back before LFD existed) but we had inadequate healers. Thus, I provided heals AND meaningful DPS at the same time and they were impressed enough at my ability to do both efffectively at the same time that they offered me a guild invite after some discussion.

So no, shadow heals need to stay.
02/15/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Shantao
BTW, I'd LOVE a true Holy DPS spec.


I'm so sick of people saying this. Holy already does fantastic DPS! With the right glyphs/chakra you can out dps shadow priests. You really can. I wreck LFR's as holy as an attempt to keep things interesting and holy DPS is literally a 3-4 button rotation for huge numbers.
02/15/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Shantao
BTW, I'd LOVE a true Holy DPS spec. Even if it was just a major glyph to change the asthetics of Shadow or a talent point.
Holy DPS just needs to happen.

I wanna bring the Righteous Fire that BURNS. Not the Righteous fire that tickles the enemies and heals my bros.

While that's cool and all...I just want to make things burn.
02/15/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Treiz
I'm so sick of people saying this. Holy already does fantastic DPS!
So do Tanks With enough Vengance. But that doesn't make them damage dealers, does it?

It's not just about how much DPS you do-it's how the spec is made. Holy is a healing spec because it has a toolset designed for healing that just happens to have some damage tacked on.

A Holy DPS spec would a be a spec that is designed for bringing the hurt, complete with cooldowns to make that fure burn even hotter. Not one that heals things by hitting things.
If shadow priests can't heal at all then healing specs shouldn't be able to do any damage at all. And tanks can do neither, just hold mobs in place forever.

You'll have to do every single quest with 3 people, all the time. You HAVE to group up to do anything from killing a rare to going to the store to buy milk.

There was a time when this was kind of the case in WoW - around the beginning of BC. Shadow priests couldn't raid heal for lack of mana (but they made us do it!) and tanks/healers couldn't kill anything alone. Was okay if you had a partner glued on your hip but sometimes you would get caught alone and that ended up with you discovering yet another graveyard.

You would get whispers from stranger mages who wanted to AoE grind so you stood and bubbled them and tossed heals, watching him kill everything. Didn't like that useless feel.

I like my independence and not being a "baggage" spec.
This is going to sound crazy but I really hate the concept of hybrids. Hate them. For some people, hybrids are absolutely the only way to enjoy the game.

But seriously, get your healing spec out of my damage spec. I don't want to bubble and flash heal in a pinch. I don't want to use healing as a method to balance myself in PVP. And when I have to heal I get yanked out of shadow form and if i'm lacking caffeine i'll damn well forget to get back into shadow form until I realize i'm casting things that don't make sense.

And that's the catch 22 for me. I don't want to be a prima donna mage or a dopey Warlock, I want to be a shadow priest. I want to melt faces, but that's it. My survivability shouldn't mean I temporarily forgo my evilness so I can pump out some holy magic.

I think this game would be better off (and better balanced) is Blizzard fully walled off one spec from another. Warriors wont sit in defensive stance with shield wall while they pick their noses at you. Ret Paladins wouldn't bubble and flash heal, Ferals wouldn't flutter around with pushbacks and bear (oh !@#$) mode when threatened.

The trinity should be more clearly defined IMO. Shadow would be served best by being shadow 100% and it would make me enjoy the class more.


yea because pures don't have a way of healing themselves... oh wait...
Get your damage spec out of my healing class.

But seriously, Nixxe summed everything up already.
02/15/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Vulonorok
Holy DPS just needs to happen.


I don't understand why people want it so badly. I'm personally totally uninterested and would be against it just because we'd get a huge wave of fotm holy smiter priests and that's never fun. But whatever floats your banana I guess. I guess it would be cool if they got "holy form" which had a similar graphic to Power Infusion but with lots of sparkles.
Holy DPS just needs to happen.


I don't understand why people want it so badly. I'm personally totally uninterested and would be against it just because we'd get a huge wave of fotm holy smiter priests and that's never fun. But whatever floats your banana I guess. I guess it would be cool if they got "holy form" which had a similar graphic to Power Infusion but with lots of sparkles.


Yeah so shadow priests would barely be able to heal themselves in 5.2 but holy healers want to do even more damage while doing huge healing?

What is this, role-reversal discrimination?

ps. *shakes fist at lappy*
02/15/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Vulonorok
Holy already does fantastic DPS!


02/15/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Vulonorok
So do Tanks With enough Vengance


02/15/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Vulonorok
But that doesn't make them damage dealers, does it?


I feel like your definition of "damage dealer" is different than mine.....

Holy dps may not have a super complex toolset or rotation, but when I can do 70k sustained dps, I feel like it's a bit more than "healing with a bit of damage tacked on"...

02/15/2013 11:24 AMPosted by Vulonorok
A Holy DPS spec would a be a spec that is designed for bringing the hurt, complete with cooldowns to make that fure burn even hotter


Power infusion? I feel like 0.9 sec cast smites critting for 175k bring an awful lot of hurt for their 500ish mana cost.

The fact that a holy priest (the "healing" spec) can out damage a shadow priest (the "dps" spec) says that either holy dps is fine as is, or that shadow needs a significant buff to beat out the "healing" class for damage.
02/15/2013 01:48 AMPosted by Zebedeo
every class except hunters I believe have some form of healing.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=109212
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=90361
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