PvP is Fine.

Battlegrounds
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The majority of top rated arena players bot for honor gear not even joking. Especially on alts.

I know, many of them don't care about anything in the game but the highly competitive aspect (the actual arenas) and would rather just have the gear to start playing. However, players above 2500 rating probably represent about .5% of the population.
Ok those who are pro gear normalization. Let me ask you this.

How would u like it if you spent a ton of time raiding to get your character awesome, and than tried to solo a level 60 raid, only to find that your gear was reduced and scaled to fit the dungeon?

This is why gear restrictions do not work. They ruin the sense of a power for a character. If my character can't use it's gear for all purpose encounters, than the gear itself becomes less valuable. When the gear becomes less valuable, people switch and play games where the gear does matter.

Keep in mind. Everyone was once a noob. Even the full geared paladin with 30 Kbs camping the graveyard. At one point even he was in scrub blues.

90 pvp is supposed to be brutal. If you want an easier experience, play in a lower level bracket. The gear barrier is all pvpers have in terms of mmo progression. It is not only a personal growth, but it changes the experience.

Keep in mind also that in this thread everyone is under the assumption that the fully geared players are also very good. There are plenty of players who stink at pvp! The gear advantage is the only way that they get to see enjoyment and success.

If the game was only about skill, than only the best players would have fun. Yet we all pay the same subscription fee, and therefore all deserve the chance to be super stars. If you want a level playing field that tests intuition and reflexes, play cod. U can have fun with all the 12 year olds who sit around playing 6 hours everyday after school.

So yes, there will be times where a really skilled player with really good gear goes up against a poor Newley hit 90 with so much skill and potential, and yet the gear plays the bigger roll. But that's life, and a small fee to pay for the greater good of the game. I actually think its sad that blizzard is putting the weapons on honor. Forcing players to wait to get their pvp weapons made it all the more sweeter when it finally happened.

Now players will buy their weps first, but since the rest of their gear will still be crap, they will barely notice any affect and will still get rolled. By the time they fill ut the rest of their sets, their gear will be solid but they will never get that "oh !@#$" moment that you get when u equip your pvp weapon after ALREADY having a full set. Is like going from 60 mph to 90 and it's really the most dramatic change my character has had in mop.
Assuming that Blizzard still cares about its customers and what they want from a game, there are many different types of people that play WoW. Some care a lot about gear progression. Others want to roll ungeared opponents. There are those that pvp for the sake of pvp. Many want to be that guy at the top of the charts. There are people that feel skill should play a larger role than gear in pvp. Also, there are those that feel they earned their gear and thus their right to put it to use how they see fit. Etc, etc, etc.

It is impossible to appeal to all of these players at once. Each time Blizzard makes a move to appeal to one type of player, it will end up upsetting a different one. I've found the best way to deal with this is to simply roll with the changes. They are going to happen regardless. Give your input, and let them take it into consideration. Don't be surprised or angry if things don't go your way. Expect the worst, but hope for the best.
Random battlegrounds should really be geared towards people who:

A) Play casually and don't have the time or will to find groups to play consistently with
B) Players who are just entering the PvP portion of the game and need to gear up

That being said hardcore players should still be aloud to play randoms however....

I'm not really on either side of this argument and I'd be fine with either way but since currently pvp isnt like this.. gear normalization in random bgs is not so absurd. These players who have worked ''hard" for their improved gear get to showcase it in more hardcore formats such as rated bgs and arena. Having to settle for a gimp in a random bg also shouldn't be that big of a deal for players if they are skilled enough to get elite gear to out skill others in the bg.
Posted by Anaxx: There seem to be essentially two types of people who are at the heart of this debate about the state of pvp:

The first type of person actually enjoys pvp for the challenge and competition, who want skill and strategy to be the deciding factors in the outcome of the game, not pre-gotten advantages that significantly tip the scale in their favor. They don't find it boring, but actually enjoy a balanced competitive game for its own sake.

The second type of person (like the op and people like kiaransali) like a pvp experience where going into the game they know they have an advantage and can win by a greater margin more easily. They like the feeling of going up against lesser geared disorganized groups and stomping them in the ground. They feel more powerful - invincible maybe even. it's thrilling to blow people up with ease, you feel godlike. This is the game they enjoy most.
What a load of crap. I am tempted to report this for trolling because it's pretty close to it. First of all I play to win & I like the close matches most of all. Secondly I understand the importance of strategy more than the vast majority of wow players... I am in the military & have taught small unit tactics (which is really what PvP is... strategy refers to very large scale warfare).

The other half of you wrote borders on whining. As I have many, many times I am not the least bit responsible for poorly geared players (and they are on my team too by the way). If you are poorly geared that is 100% on you. Stop trying to blame players that took the time to gear up and/or asking Blizzard for a handout. Seriously Anaxx your post is really disappointing and highly disingenuous.
Posted by Anaxx: Everybody wants to be rewarded for winning or doing good, that is just human nature, and adds to the fun of the game. And if blizzard got creative about it they could come up with different types of rewards that would make winning more fun but would not increase the imbalance of subsequent games through significant gear disparity.

This is a quote from blizzards page describing upcoming gear changes: "Over time, the gap in power between Honor and Conquest PvP items has widened." This makes for an inevitably imbalanced pvp.
You are mixing apples & oranges. Gear normalization is a horrible idea (I have explained why many times). What Blizzard is saying is that they need to re-balance the progression model. I concur with that. Totally different though.

02/24/2013 07:46 PMPosted by Anaxx
One possible solution could be to have several different bg queues
Do you remember calling me a liar when I said Blizzard stated that this would "dramatically increase queue times"? Do you recall me linking the blue post? So barring memory loss I am perplexed as to why you are suggesting this again.

Assuming that Blizzard still cares about its customers and what they want from a game, there are many different types of people that play WoW. Some care a lot about gear progression. Others want to roll ungeared opponents. There are those that pvp for the sake of pvp. Many want to be that guy at the top of the charts. There are people that feel skill should play a larger role than gear in pvp. Also, there are those that feel they earned their gear and thus their right to put it to use how they see fit. Etc, etc, etc.

It is impossible to appeal to all of these players at once. Each time Blizzard makes a move to appeal to one type of player, it will end up upsetting a different one. I've found the best way to deal with this is to simply roll with the changes. They are going to happen regardless. Give your input, and let them take it into consideration. Don't be surprised or angry if things don't go your way. Expect the worst, but hope for the best.
Words of wisdom. Agree 100%.
Ok,people are constantly complaining about pvp and everyone who complaining full epic elite geared players are not aloud in random bgs. And the complainers want balance. If you want balance this is the way it will work if you want a skill based gameplay.

Everyone will have to be fully gear maxed out so everyone is samely geared. That means gear is no longer a issue,everyone is same geared should be no problem about balance now. Its about skill now.

Now if thats what you want,which seems to me seems like every pvper wants is to have pvp a skill based thing. Thats how you could do it. But!!! That would be the most boring thing ever! And it will take the reward out of playing. Pvp is great where its at right now, and what i saw in the patch notes is not giving away gear,its making it so everyone is equally geared and so its not unbalanced between gear. But i would also like to say is that when you get a player,for instance patch 5.1 were in now. You see these elite geared players going into random bgs and wiping the other team. They deserve to do that. They worked so hard to become that epic of a greatly geared player and why not let them have fun with a toon they worked hard for. There is nothing wrong with that. I do get frustrated here or there when that happens to me, but it makes me wanna work harder to become that greatly epic player and do the same. PvP is fine. Nothing wrong with it. Yes its frustrating,But thats the fun of wanting to become epic and be the guy who isnt being frustrated anymore. And you dont always see that full out mav and epic geared player every bg. Just stop complaining and enjoy a wonderful game.


You are an idiot and obviously dont read any of the complaints about the PVP 90% deal with the amount of CC's and how retarded blizzard is for making them the only thing pvp is about. Secondly that other 10% deals with the gap between none pvp gear, low, and high pvp gear which is greater than the grand canyon. Lastly, so before you go ranting and trolling THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE, and stay off the forums so you dont get embarrassed again.
Ok,people are constantly complaining about pvp and everyone who complaining full epic elite geared players are not aloud in random bgs. And the complainers want balance. If you want balance this is the way it will work if you want a skill based gameplay.

Everyone will have to be fully gear maxed out so everyone is samely geared. That means gear is no longer a issue,everyone is same geared should be no problem about balance now. Its about skill now.

Now if thats what you want,which seems to me seems like every pvper wants is to have pvp a skill based thing. Thats how you could do it. But!!! That would be the most boring thing ever! And it will take the reward out of playing. Pvp is great where its at right now, and what i saw in the patch notes is not giving away gear,its making it so everyone is equally geared and so its not unbalanced between gear. But i would also like to say is that when you get a player,for instance patch 5.1 were in now. You see these elite geared players going into random bgs and wiping the other team. They deserve to do that. They worked so hard to become that epic of a greatly geared player and why not let them have fun with a toon they worked hard for. There is nothing wrong with that. I do get frustrated here or there when that happens to me, but it makes me wanna work harder to become that greatly epic player and do the same. PvP is fine. Nothing wrong with it. Yes its frustrating,But thats the fun of wanting to become epic and be the guy who isnt being frustrated anymore. And you dont always see that full out mav and epic geared player every bg. Just stop complaining and enjoy a wonderful game.


Of course PvP is fine to you! You play a Hunter!
02/25/2013 04:41 AMPosted by Paníc
Of course PvP is fine to you! You play a Hunter!
Perfect example of the ad hominem fallacy.
Ok those who are pro gear normalization. Let me ask you this.

How would u like it if you spent a ton of time raiding to get your character awesome, and than tried to solo a level 60 raid, only to find that your gear was reduced and scaled to fit the dungeon?

This is why gear restrictions do not work. They ruin the sense of a power for a character. If my character can't use it's gear for all purpose encounters, than the gear itself becomes less valuable. When the gear becomes less valuable, people switch and play games where the gear does matter.

Keep in mind. Everyone was once a noob. Even the full geared paladin with 30 Kbs camping the graveyard. At one point even he was in scrub blues.

90 pvp is supposed to be brutal. If you want an easier experience, play in a lower level bracket. The gear barrier is all pvpers have in terms of mmo progression. It is not only a personal growth, but it changes the experience.

Keep in mind also that in this thread everyone is under the assumption that the fully geared players are also very good. There are plenty of players who stink at pvp! The gear advantage is the only way that they get to see enjoyment and success.

If the game was only about skill, than only the best players would have fun. Yet we all pay the same subscription fee, and therefore all deserve the chance to be super stars. If you want a level playing field that tests intuition and reflexes, play cod. U can have fun with all the 12 year olds who sit around playing 6 hours everyday after school.

So yes, there will be times where a really skilled player with really good gear goes up against a poor Newley hit 90 with so much skill and potential, and yet the gear plays the bigger roll. But that's life, and a small fee to pay for the greater good of the game. I actually think its sad that blizzard is putting the weapons on honor. Forcing players to wait to get their pvp weapons made it all the more sweeter when it finally happened.

Now players will buy their weps first, but since the rest of their gear will still be crap, they will barely notice any affect and will still get rolled. By the time they fill ut the rest of their sets, their gear will be solid but they will never get that "oh !@#$" moment that you get when u equip your pvp weapon after ALREADY having a full set. Is like going from 60 mph to 90 and it's really the most dramatic change my character has had in mop.


I would love it if raiding gear was scaled to the content and it always stayed hard. For me cosmetic rewards would be enough.

I also see little to no need for gear progression in pvp; just makes balancing more annoying. Also no waiting for pvp weapons made it suck for the first 3 weeks of every alt because they are such a massive difference, it was definitely not sweeter it sucked beforehand hard especially later in season when everyone had t1 and half the people have t2 via exploiting.

Finally to your assertion if they game was only about skill only the best players would have fun you are wrong. To expound upon that the best players would rise up just as fast they did during the gear reset for mop you would never see them unless they decided to screw around with subs in randos. The only people it would negatively effect are those who use gear as a crutch. It would also be awesome to be able to swap toons without suffering massive negatives ie my warrior is full malev my rogue is def not.

It would be very simple and honestly awesome to make all rewards in game cosmetic only have scaling content so it is always hard and fun.
clue-less
some of the best games ever invented are balanced.

skill is the thing u want to count on to win a game
people get thrown out of sports for cheating or trying to unbalance a game because people like a fair contest of skill and brains.
the more unbalanced a game is the more boring it becomes.
till they stop playing it or dont care about it

bots........
think about it


This guy gets it.
Ok those who are pro gear normalization. Let me ask you this.

How would u like it if you spent a ton of time raiding to get your character awesome, and than tried to solo a level 60 raid, only to find that your gear was reduced and scaled to fit the dungeon?


I wouldn't like it because in PvE the whole point is character stat progression. PvE is so not about skill it is absolutely funny. Running face first into scripted content until you 'get it' is not skill. Not even close.

This is why gear restrictions do not work. They ruin the sense of a power for a character. If my character can't use it's gear for all purpose encounters, than the gear itself becomes less valuable. When the gear becomes less valuable, people switch and play games where the gear does matter.


You made a strawman and smashed it to ribbons. Nothing was proven. Sense of power in PvP? What is this?

Your sense of power in PvP should come from skill entirely. Not this silly notion of being so powerful that you should hit an opponent 100% harder than he can hit you.

Keep in mind. Everyone was once a noob. Even the full geared paladin with 30 Kbs camping the graveyard. At one point even he was in scrub blues.


The difference is that the first come, first serve crowd takes time off or has no real life to compete with server first achievements. They always get a head start on content. So much that when the working crowd comes into the picture the first serve, first come crowd has established an near unbreakable grasp on the ladder of PvP.

90 pvp is supposed to be brutal. If you want an easier experience, play in a lower level bracket. The gear barrier is all pvpers have in terms of mmo progression. It is not only a personal growth, but it changes the experience.


I just recalled seeing a thread about lower level PvP and gear normalization. Check it out.

Lower level PvP has it just as bad due to BOA gear.

Keep in mind also that in this thread everyone is under the assumption that the fully geared players are also very good. There are plenty of players who stink at pvp! The gear advantage is the only way that they get to see enjoyment and success.


The thing is you can be a complete retard in PvP while being T2 geared. You will hit a newbie 100% harder than he can hit you by way of PvP resilience and PvP power. Regardless, unless you stand there and let him beat on you for three quarters of your life you will not lose.

If the game was only about skill, than only the best players would have fun. Yet we all pay the same subscription fee, and therefore all deserve the chance to be super stars. If you want a level playing field that tests intuition and reflexes, play cod. U can have fun with all the 12 year olds who sit around playing 6 hours everyday after school.


Um.. Last I checked every sporting event in the world has an elite class of very skilled players. Yet the world over those games are cherished.

What game are you talking about exactly?

So yes, there will be times where a really skilled player with really good gear goes up against a poor Newley hit 90 with so much skill and potential, and yet the gear plays the bigger roll. But that's life, and a small fee to pay for the greater good of the game. I actually think its sad that blizzard is putting the weapons on honor. Forcing players to wait to get their pvp weapons made it all the more sweeter when it finally happened.


Lol... try every hour of the day, every day of the week. The reason people bot BGs is because of this. They know they can't win so why bother?

Now players will buy their weps first, but since the rest of their gear will still be crap, they will barely notice any affect and will still get rolled. By the time they fill ut the rest of their sets, their gear will be solid but they will never get that "oh !@#$" moment that you get when u equip your pvp weapon after ALREADY having a full set. Is like going from 60 mph to 90 and it's really the most dramatic change my character has had in mop.


PvP Resilience and PvP Power is why. You need the weapons and the gear equality to see a major QoL improvement over your previous experiences.

PvP Power alone does help though a great deal.
02/25/2013 12:29 PMPosted by Hezra
The difference is that the first come, first serve crowd takes time off or has no real life to compete with server first achievements. They always get a head start on content. So much that when the working crowd comes into the picture the first serve, first come crowd has established an near unbreakable grasp on the ladder of PvP.


I work, I go to school. Unless I get off my a** and go do 2s, highly likely I will never be full Malv. Especially with all my alts.

Gear shouldn't carry a player, but look at what kind of game we play? And before you point fingers at me saying I want an advantage, I fight players that outgear me a lot.

It's a mix of both in battlegrounds.

I like gearing my toon, and I consider my downtime of being undergeared the most important because, as I go along, I learn how to adapt to what class I'm playing.

02/25/2013 12:29 PMPosted by Hezra
The thing is you can be a complete retard in PvP while being T2 geared. You will hit a newbie 100% harder than he can hit you by way of PvP resilience and PvP power. Regardless, unless you stand there and let him beat on you for three quarters of your life you will not lose.


Lessen the difference between conquest and honor gear. Stop nerfing our standard sets to sh*t because of PvE. Problem solved.

02/25/2013 12:29 PMPosted by Hezra
Lower level PvP has it just as bad due to BOA gear.


Even without BoAs, simple dungeon blues are on par. You might want to look at some enchants applied before you go pointing fingers at BoAs alone.

02/25/2013 12:29 PMPosted by Hezra
Lol... try every hour of the day, every day of the week. The reason people bot BGs is because of this. They know they can't win so why bother?


That's still not a good reason. Botting only worsens and slows their gearing. Not only that, it makes other's time trying to gear miserable.

There's no damn excuse for being selfish and sitting in your own pity party.
02/25/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Kirama
The difference is that the first come, first serve crowd takes time off or has no real life to compete with server first achievements. They always get a head start on content. So much that when the working crowd comes into the picture the first serve, first come crowd has established an near unbreakable grasp on the ladder of PvP.


I work, I go to school. Unless I get off my a** and go do 2s, highly likely I will never be full Malv. Especially with all my alts.

Gear shouldn't carry a player, but look at what kind of game we play? And before you point fingers at me saying I want an advantage, I fight players that outgear me a lot.

It's a mix of both in battlegrounds.

I like gearing my toon, and I consider my downtime of being undergeared the most important because, as I go along, I learn how to adapt to what class I'm playing.


You are preaching to the choir. I do 2s since I've been back. In fact, I would rather do arenas in greens than do random BGs in blues.

That has really nothing to do with quality of life while gearing up either. Going from greens to blues to purples is a rotten experience for the majority of people. They DON'T enjoy it. It has nothing to do with putting time in or whatever excuse is being made here. People don't like the game at that stage. That is a critical problem.

02/25/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Kirama
The thing is you can be a complete retard in PvP while being T2 geared. You will hit a newbie 100% harder than he can hit you by way of PvP resilience and PvP power. Regardless, unless you stand there and let him beat on you for three quarters of your life you will not lose.


Lessen the difference between conquest and honor gear. Stop nerfing our standard sets to sh*t because of PvE. Problem solved.


I don't disagree. If the point was to go from 458 to 468, that'd be completely fine. Also the reasoning behind gating PvP power has also got to stop. The whole reasoning behind that so-called abuse in PvE really leaves me thinking the wrong people are in charge.

I mean what are we talking about anyways? Scripted events anyone with brains can plow through on PTR weeks or months before the content hits public. Yet they are afraid PvP weapons will break that cycle? Good lord. Overpaid.

02/25/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Kirama
Lower level PvP has it just as bad due to BOA gear.


Even without BoAs, simple dungeon blues are on par. You might want to look at some enchants applied before you go pointing fingers at BoAs alone.


I don't enchant stuff I don't plan on keeping for very long. Same goes for dreadful gear. Notice how I only have trinkets and jewelry? I'd rather buy mog gear or mounts than buy something I'm replacing in a couple weeks. Would it be a QoL boost? Maybe. A big maybe. I already come in around #6 or so in DPS on competitive BGs like AB.

02/25/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Kirama
Lol... try every hour of the day, every day of the week. The reason people bot BGs is because of this. They know they can't win so why bother?


That's still not a good reason. Botting only worsens and slows their gearing. Not only that, it makes other's time trying to gear miserable.

There's no damn excuse for being selfish and sitting in your own pity party.


Well, I can't say it is either. I mean, if the game is !@#$ at a large point that would earn some pretty negative reviews and people wouldn't ordinarily play it. Call it crazy but some people put many hours into a %^-*ty game just to see if it ever does get better.
02/25/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Hezra
That has really nothing to do with quality of life while gearing up either. Going from greens to blues to purples is a rotten experience for the majority of people. They DON'T enjoy it. It has nothing to do with putting time in or whatever excuse is being made here. People don't like the game at that stage. That is a critical problem.


And it's been happening since the game was first released. They made gearing hell of a lot easier, especially for those that can't log on everyday, and play for hours.

It may not be fun for some, but you have that other crowd that does enjoy working their way up, and having fun while doing it.

02/25/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Hezra
I don't enchant stuff I don't plan on keeping for very long. Same goes for dreadful gear. Notice how I only have trinkets and jewelry? I'd rather buy mog gear or mounts than buy something I'm replacing in a couple weeks. Would it be a QoL boost? Maybe. A big maybe. I already come in around #6 or so in DPS on competitive BGs like AB.


I enchant my stuff whenever I get the chance. It helps a ton. I do that knowing I'm going to be sitting in this gear for a while.

02/25/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Hezra
Well, I can't say it is either. I mean, if the game is !@#$ at a large point that would earn some pretty negative reviews and people wouldn't ordinarily play it. Call it crazy but some people put many hours into a %^-*ty game just to see if it ever does get better.


But they rather continue playing instead of quitting if it bores them so much. If I got sick of gearing, I'd go play something that didn't involve it at all.
Yukkon
90 Night Elf Hunter
Territorial Dominance
3830

Edited by Yukkon on 2/24/13 3:44 AM (PST)
Ok,people are constantly complaining about pvp and everyone who complaining full epic elite geared players are not aloud in random bgs. And the complainers want balance. If you want balance this is the way it will work if you want a skill based gameplay.


Says the Over powered Hunter
pvp is broke.....enough said
02/24/2013 04:34 PMPosted by Kiaransali
There is no "special treatment". That's like saying earning a college degree and getting a better job than a guy that dropped out of high school is "special treatment". What you are insinuating (a handout for poorly geared players) would be actual special treatment


I do not insinuate anything. If hardcore players are not just cheap and lazy they will do arenas for a challenge. Otherwise they are just pretty much trolling around the randoms. That makes the grind more annoying then listening to people give me reasons why I shouldn't choose to carry a gun. Players should be seperated by individual skill and not gear. If I fight another warrior who outgears me but got carried and I actually have skill, the outcome shouldnt be the carried moron gains 3 honor for killing me because I had mediocre gear. What I really want to say is this. Every kill should be earned through effort, not by default.

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