Haste or Mastery for Arcane 5.2?

Mage
I know it is sort of either/or even in 5.1, but I wonder if one stat shines more brightly in 5.2.
Haste. The new invocation build will have you burning your mana down to 20%. Mastery doesn't stand a chance, in fact it might prove to be lower than crit.
Do haste, but do it because I told you to and I'm an astronaut.
03/02/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Medívh
Haste. The new invocation build will have you burning your mana down to 20%. Mastery doesn't stand a chance, in fact it might prove to be lower than crit.


What's this based on? I just tried invocation vs rop with my current haste-heavy gear on a PTR dummy and rop was quite a bit better.

It seems to me that you may be working with incomplete information. There is no reason to evocate at 20% mana because haste increases the mana returned per tick. At my level of haste, evocate with 4 charges was returning around 88k mana per tick, which is almost enough to fill my mana bar from 10% in 3 ticks. You might as well just burn to 0% (or as close as possible) because a 4-tick evocate will overfill your mana.
03/02/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Aozerra
Haste. The new invocation build will have you burning your mana down to 20%. Mastery doesn't stand a chance, in fact it might prove to be lower than crit.


What's this based on? I just tried invocation vs rop with my current haste-heavy gear on a PTR dummy and rop was quite a bit better.

It seems to me that you may be working with incomplete information. There is no reason to evocate at 20% mana because haste increases the mana returned per tick. At my level of haste, evocate with 4 charges was returning around 88k mana per tick, which is almost enough to fill my mana bar from 10% in 3 ticks. You might as well just burn to 0% (or as close as possible) because a 4-tick evocate will overfill your mana.


We'll see. A few anecdotal posts aren't going to settle anything. Your post is actually the first I've read recommending RoP. 20% was just a ball park I tossed out to show it was much lower than mastery threshold, it doesn't surprise me that you burn to 0% with a haste heavy build. I should have clarified I meant sub 20% mana I can see how that was confusing. The point was that haste will outdo mastery because you'll have less mana for mana adept.
03/02/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Medívh


What's this based on? I just tried invocation vs rop with my current haste-heavy gear on a PTR dummy and rop was quite a bit better.

It seems to me that you may be working with incomplete information. There is no reason to evocate at 20% mana because haste increases the mana returned per tick. At my level of haste, evocate with 4 charges was returning around 88k mana per tick, which is almost enough to fill my mana bar from 10% in 3 ticks. You might as well just burn to 0% (or as close as possible) because a 4-tick evocate will overfill your mana.


We'll see. A few anecdotal posts aren't going to settle anything. Your post is actually the first I've read recommending RoP. 20% was just a ball park I tossed out to show it was much lower than mastery threshold, it doesn't surprise me that you burn to 0% with a haste heavy build. I should have clarified I meant sub 20% mana I can see how that was confusing. The point was that haste will outdo mastery because you'll have less mana for mana adept.


The rop rotation I used had me floating at 85%+ mana the whole time. Essentially just building 4 stacks, using whatever missiles I had, and dumping with abarr. It's a different style that supports mastery much better than the haste/invo burn style. It's actually pretty much how it is on live with regards to build choice (haste invo vs mastery rop) and I don't see it going away as a result of the changes.


We'll see. A few anecdotal posts aren't going to settle anything. Your post is actually the first I've read recommending RoP. 20% was just a ball park I tossed out to show it was much lower than mastery threshold, it doesn't surprise me that you burn to 0% with a haste heavy build. I should have clarified I meant sub 20% mana I can see how that was confusing. The point was that haste will outdo mastery because you'll have less mana for mana adept.


The rop rotation I used had me floating at 85%+ mana the whole time. Essentially just building 4 stacks, using whatever missiles I had, and dumping with abarr. It's a different style that supports mastery much better than the haste/invo burn style. It's actually pretty much how it is on live with regards to build choice (haste invo vs mastery rop) and I don't see it going away as a result of the changes.


I assumed there would be a somewhat mana-neutral RoP rotation. What I'm deeply skeptical about is whether its raid viable. Arcane already has poor movement, and its getting worse in 5.2. Invocators aren't hit as hard by this as Runers. If the DPS is comparable, Invo will be the defacto build, because its better on any level of movement (i.e. all raids). That's why I say haste, because i don't see RoP as staying a popular/viable candidate.

I assumed there would be a somewhat mana-neutral RoP rotation. What I'm deeply skeptical about is whether its raid viable. Arcane already has poor movement, and its getting worse in 5.2. Invocators aren't hit as hard by this as Runers. If the DPS is comparable, Invo will be the defacto build, because its better on any level of movement (i.e. all raids). That's why I say haste, because i don't see RoP as staying a popular/viable candidate.


Again, it's no different than live. I have played both mastery/rop and haste/invocation builds and they both do the same exact things when moving. The only difference is that rop builds have to spend an extra ~1.3sec dropping a rune when they're done moving. Despite this, rop was the predominant build of 5.1 (even though haste/invocation was stronger, imo).

The removal of scorch is not going to punish rop users any more than invocation users. Arcane has terrible tools to keep up damage on the move regardless.
It really is just part of Arcane's design that it has to be balanced around mobility, or lack thereof. As Blizz's main voices in class/spec balance say they want casters to care more about hard casting, Arcane is a keen example of how they want to reward players for finding time to hold still. There are specs that can do better than Arcane should on the move. That's just how it is. Pros and cons and all that. Balance. Stuff.
I've done some rudimentary dummy testing on the PTR last night, and RoP/mastery conserving seems to far outperform invocation/haste burn build. Invocation is just weak.
03/02/2013 03:59 PMPosted by Deepchill
I've done some rudimentary dummy testing on the PTR last night, and RoP/mastery conserving seems to far outperform invocation/haste burn build. Invocation is just weak.


I'm speaking from a bit less expert perspective: is it really only more functional for haste builds to take 5.2's Invoc and mastery to take Rune? Would it be reasonable to swap them? From where I'm standing, the mass of haste would make Rune's passive regen while standing on it work even faster. More burn if the caster so pleased.

<- dumb on the finer points. Be gentle :3

The removal of scorch is not going to punish rop users any more than invocation users. Arcane has terrible tools to keep up damage on the move regardless.


I disagree because I think those GCD's add up. I'm not going to say it can't be the case that RoP remains the top choice, I'm just saying you're the first that's recommended it. I remain open minded, but unconvinced.
I think there's something to be said for the value of mastery in terms of its effects on AOE. Glyphed CoC hits like a truck with full mastery. Would be worthwhile on the hydra boss at least.

Haven't had time to test much though for general purposes as I've played just Fire.
You burn to 20% then invocate without barraging because each stack of the debuff = 10% more mana on invo.

40% + 40% = 80%
You burn to 20% then invocate without barraging because each stack of the debuff = 10% more mana on invo.

40% + 40% = 80%


Aozerra was saying that Invocation mana returns scale with haste, so you actually burn to 0% since Evocate will restore 100%. I haven't tested it because personally I think the new Arcane is a late term abortion I won't be touching. Can you confirm that the mana returns don't scale with haste, just the cast time?
Thank you for all this info. I have no intention of continuing with RoP as it is horrible if signficant movement is required. My plan is to go Invocation and learn how to use it effectively. I'm noting the comments on maximizing haste as the appropriate means. This suggest to me that getting to 4 Arcane Charges and AM or AB - rinse\repeat would be impossible to maintain at least 80% mana (needed to take advantage of mastery).

I have not played on PTR so I assume this is in fact the case? I've read here that you burn your mana down to 20% - why would I do that unless there was no way of maintaining my mana at 80%? Intuitively and based on mana mastery it would be optimal for an Arcane Mage to manage his mana and maximize mastery regardless of which Tier 6 talent is selected.

I'll be playing with this myself once I hit the live server but would appreciate other opinions on how best to play an Arcane Mage with Invocation? Thanks in advance.
Presumably there is also a soft-cap for haste to make Invo a viable option.
Assuming you have gear that primarily has mastery on it, then you could build a decent mastery rating and use RoP. Building 3-4 stacks using AB, using whatever AM you have then dropping stacks using ABarr and staying at about 80%.
That said, if you have gear with a lot of haste on it, you could effectively just spam AB and AM with 4 stacks until you hit 20% then Invocate back to full and repeat the process. This is assuming you use Invo with 4 arcane charges.
No doubt that you could stay at about 80% with Invocation, however since this build has very little added mastery, you don't see as big a benefit of staying at 80% as you would if you had lots of mastery.

One interesting thing in regards to mobility. RoP isn't a long cast time, and very often there is no need to have more than 1 run out at any time. It's also very good for fights when you're not constantly moving and have periods where you can stand and shoot (like Jin'rohk). On the other hand, if your Invocation gets interrupted by a stun/silence, or you have to move out of something halfway through casting it, you effectively lose a considerable amount of time. Honestly though, arcane is seriously lacking in any ability to shoot and move (unlike Fire or Ele shammies, or hunters, or aff-locks). I think the biggest issue is that each spec has a different stat priority, so the ability to switch between fire and arcane for bosses depending on movement/aoe is extremely limited. Honestly, a 2nd spec for "pure" classes is more or less useless if you don't PvP.

Either way, be prepared for Blizzard to "fix" arcane mages again when they realise that people aren't using mastery as the preferred secondary stat. It will probably come as a reduced mana regen from haste, or more changes to Invocation.
Thank You for your thoughts Tuckletuts. I will not use RoP again - really friggen hated it. Which leaves me to Invoc. I realize that under the Invoc buff my mana regens 50% slower - I don't understand why that's in but it is what it is. I really have a hard time coming to terms with not using mastery - as such Arcane loses it's mastery bonus when using Invoc as it appears keeping mana at a fairly high level would be near impossible - this just makes no sense to me.
Now that I'm going Invoc with a haste build. Is there a haste hard cap? If I can't cast AB any faster at some point, I should not be putting any more into haste (recognizing that i may be able to improve mana regen with more haste but does that outweigh the next stat priority)?

Second question, is mastery my third prioirty (after hit and haste caps)?

May be too early for this type of analysis but I thought I'd throw it out there. Thoughts?
This is very hard to decide for me. Im reluctant to give up mastery buff and therefore attempted to use RoP for my first raid day. It went fairly well and i pulled competitive numbers besides falling behind during the add phases on second boss. I just don't like the idea of using invocation and spamming AB to 0% mana. I didn't find it very hard to remain around 85% mana and with little movement pulled top dps with RoP. I decided to also try Ice Floes as my talent to replace scorch for mobility. Seemed to be pretty effective. Any other inputs on what us mages that like arcane should try or look to for 5.2 would be appreciated as I haven't been able to find a concrete answer to the best rotation/talent to use....

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