So Arcane is actually getting beefed up

Mage
Third time I've typed this in the past half hour but I feel like it behooves me to present this in a more noticeable way so the people flipping about Arcane's changes can simmer down a bit. :)

Alright! This is actually pretty easy to paint for yall: the big concern is how you're seeing that 22% nerf on two of Arcane's core spells and a 13% nerf of the other. That's right, their uncharged damage is gonna start slightly lower. But it's not going to stay uncharged for nearly as long, since you're only asked to build 4 charges to reach your new max power. On top of that, quick math suggests that 6 charges of 25% extra damage each causes your buff to cap at 150% extra damage. 4 charges of 50% extra damage each—what you're getting in the new patch—causes your buff to cap at 200% extra damage. Holy crap, right? Right, holy crap. They applied the flat buffs to Arcane core spells because they're about to hurt like hell more often when you can legitimately juggle mana.

Depending on who you ask, yeah, this is going to change how you play Arcane. But they had a pretty distinct vision of how they wanted this design for Arcane Mages to flow from the get-go. It's just more appealing to do it this way now, rather than chasing loopholes so you can cast nothing but Blast and Missiles 'til the Tauren come home. They're asserting its original structure.

I've been playing this way in 5.1 to see how it works and feels, and I promise you, it's already working just fine. From where I'm standing, I don't know about you folks, but I'm getting a direct buff.
There is zero doubt that the changes to arcane results in a direct nerf somewhere around the 15% range. A fully 4-stacked Arcane Blast in 5.2 will hit for less than a fully 6-stacked Arcane Blast does right now in 5.1.

Sorry, but a nerf is a nerf, even if its deserved.
So, (yeah I hate Arcane but the guild needs what does the best) is this still just getting to 4 stacks and using barrage with some missles when they proc?
I scorch weaved in normals because it was "the cool thing to do" but I suppose the rotation is supposed to be the above?
And is it still built for Mastery > Haste?
Where are you getting 15%?
03/02/2013 07:39 PMPosted by Orphie
So, (yeah I hate Arcane but the guild needs what does the best) is this still just getting to 4 stacks and using barrage with some missles when they proc?

Bare-bones, yeah. When you're at max stacks, it's up to your jurisdiction to determine how many more Blasts you can afford to launch at max stacks without wounding your mana. If you're using a Haste build, the odds are that this margin will be wider and you'll be okay Blasting more at max. Just be sure you're not wasting Missile procs as you go, and when you're ready to recover the mana and renew the cycle, do the Barrage. Done right, your mana should be all healed up by the time you're maxed again.

I scorch weaved in normals because it was "the cool thing to do" but I suppose the rotation is supposed to be the above?

Supposed to be, yeah. With Scorch-weaving, it made a talent mandatory. Like, hardcore mandatory. That's anathema to what Blizzard wanted in the new talent philosophy. There were no circumstances under which an Arcane Mage would get better use out of one of the other two talents in PvE.

And is it still built for Mastery > Haste?

I think there might be more of a balance now but this one is just a hypothesis I'm gonna spout. With Haste, your ramp-up will be faster, same with your regen. But the regen is used to benefit the effect of your Mastery, which it also great to build up. I can't give you any point-for-point proportions, but I'm gonna experiment heavily once I'm in the new patch with mass Haste, mass Mastery, and balancing both.
"Just be sure you're not wasting Missile procs as you go." What do you mean, exactly? Make sure you use them as they come or...? Arcane has never been my forte.
Ahh. Alright, think of Missile proc charges as a small economy of damage. You can have a maximum of two. It's okay to have both charges procced at once. But be careful, if you cast another spell and it causes another proc of Missiles to activate, it means an entire wave of Missiles damage that could have happened will not happen. Ultimately, one cast of Missiles does more damage than one cast of Blast. It's important to use as many Missiles as you can, and because they cost no mana, it's most efficient to use them at max stacks, when a Blast would rip chunks out of your mana.

With that said, if you have two Missile procs and you're not at max charges yet, use one. It's still a Missile proc. Don't want to risk wasting it. >:o

edit - it's a similar principle to Hot Streak and Fingers of Frost. You won't want to overwrite an unused Hot Streak with a new one because that's a whole Pyro you've missed. You don't want to overwrite an unused Fingers of Frost proc because that's a whole stun/Ice Lance you've missed.
03/02/2013 07:26 PMPosted by Atamynn
I don't know about you folks, but I'm getting a direct buff.

Nerf for me about 28kdps between live and ptr test on raiding dummies -504itm lvl
Sounds like operator error~
03/02/2013 07:39 PMPosted by Atamynn
Where are you getting 15%?

He's getting it from actual testing on the PTR in comparison to live.
The inability to stack camp hurts far more than you think.

I've spent about half an hour doing nothing but hitting the dummies self buffed, no other debuff, no hero on the ptr, then another 1/2houron live. I came out to a 16.9% damage reduction. I'd say his 15% is a good estimate.

If you're doing more damage on the ptr than on live, you're doing something wrong on live.
So, the reason you're interpreting it as a buff, OP, is because you're using a sub-optimal rotation on live. By your own admission, you're not scorch weaving in 5.1, which means you're not doing the optimal rotation. For people who are scorch weaving now who will have to adapt to dropping stacks (because yes, that is the way the spec is intended to play), there is no arguing that it's not a nerf.

Keep in mind that I say this as a mage who's never scorch weaved either, because I just plain don't like it. Much like you OP I've already gotten settled into stack dropping in 5.1 so I don't envision much in the way of a nerf to me personally. But I won't delude myself into thinking we're getting a buff just because I'm not currently using the unintended overpowered rotation that's forcing them to nerf us in the first place.
03/03/2013 03:37 AMPosted by Swiftyclicks
But I won't delude myself into thinking we're getting a buff just because I'm not currently using the unintended overpowered rotation that's forcing them to nerf us in the first place.

well said
They're gutting arcanes mana regen through and through, both mana regen talents are taking a hit and the cost of blast is going up, there is not much else to say. Arcane was veritably unused prior to its mana-cost buffs in 5.1, they were so huge that they caused the spec to instantly explode.
the fact that if you use your two missiles and barrage right as you hit 4 stacks and can then hardly stay at 100% mana on the PTR is brutal enough. Blizzard even said somthing along the lines of "a good arcane mage uses as many arcane blasts while still keeping their mana high". Problem with that is if you even cast a single blast at 4 stacks for your rotation you will slowly run out of mana and there is nothing you can do about, besides using a mana gem every 2 min.

I don't mind that they upped blasts mana costs but reducing RoPs mana regen by 25% is just to hard a hit imo. It realy makes it so they only time we can cast blast at 4 stacks in while under the effect of alter time. For a spec they are wanting to "cast arcane blast as much as possible without running low on mana" they don't give us enough tools to stay at our top or even the ability to do so at all other than maybe twice every 2-3 min.
My testing last night showed arcane as no less than 20k lower than the other 2 specs.
There is zero doubt that the changes to arcane results in a direct nerf somewhere around the 15% range. A fully 4-stacked Arcane Blast in 5.2 will hit for less than a fully 6-stacked Arcane Blast does right now in 5.1.

Sorry, but a nerf is a nerf, even if its deserved.


Atamynn, you have been had by folks invested in calling other mages terrible on the forums. Ignore those people.

Instead listen to the quote from Napwneon above. He never posts any "sky is falling" posts about mages. He is very well progressed on live (look at his gear and progression), and has lots of experience on the PTR. This is where he is getting the number about the overall effect of the changes to Arcane - from actual experience on the PTR.
let's say a 0 stack ab currently does "100%" damage

-22% from the 5.2 nerf to ab's damage makes it now do .78
.78*3.00(200% bonus damage from 4 stacks of +50%) is 2.34 or 234% and currently on live you get it to 250% (base of 100% plus 6 stacks of +25%) so yeah. In 5.2 it will do less dameg and cost way way way more mana but hey maybe they'll slingshot back again in 5.3, I mean it pretty much always happens

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