Mage 5.2 PVE raiding survey

Mage
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Awesome work, Lissanna!
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Fire.
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
25 normal.
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xgupeirkm0kfglyp/?s=6554&e=6835 (our Jin'rokh kill)
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
No, I did not.
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
Over-geared in some cases, generally the same otherwise.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
493 equipped.
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
I'm noticing it's a bit harder to do dailies and what-not, as far as survivability and damage output. The DoT spreading changes make it a large annoyance when pulling multiple mobs, which a lot of the time is unavoidable in IoT.
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
I didn't.
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
Seems to be eh.
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
Below par depending on how lucky you get with crits.
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
What utility?
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Right now, give DoT spreading back.
Part One

1) Fire.
2) 10 man progression guild (Top 10 US)
3) I made a post over here with my logs from the first night of raiding: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8156055745
4) Yes. I was Arcane in 5.1 and switched over to Fire for 5.2.
5) Usually around the same.

Part Two

6) 511
7) Our AOE is abysmal. Our single target is barely above average.
8) Arcane got absolutely gutted. Fire scales well. Fire will scale quite well with current tier gear.
9) Abysmal.
10) Slightly above average. Likely will be a bit higher with gear.
11) Non-existent.
12) Make living bomb an attractive talent. If our design is to do poor at multi target fights, then why is our single target so low?
Since MoP release I've server transferred several times and raided at several different skill levels. Since release I've had top 5 parses on almost every fight, as every spec. The issues mages are having right now are not l2p or figuring out how to gear issues, they are core problems with the class.

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Fire
2) Everything but 25m normal.
3) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kq3cqcxtysy32aru/
4) I switched between arcane/frost/fire during 5.1. Since 5.2 I've raided as fire, and played arcane/frost on dummies and simmed them.
5) I'm similar to everyone.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 506
7) Inconsistent damage. Fire is more RNG than ever, including PoM in your AT macro is a damage loss if your PoM Pyro doesn't crit, and a very significant damage loss if your Pyro! crits and your PoM Pyro doesn't. Cleave was neutered by LB not spreading. On fights that previously favored fire mages (multiple stacked targets) we're now barely competitive with other dot classes, on multi target fights that the targets are not stacked, we're way behind. No aoe.
8) Because arcane is awful.
9) In comparison to our stationary damage, our movement damage is where it should be.
10) Bad.
11) What utility? Ring of Frost and occasionally soaking a mechanic or removing a debuff with Greater Invis isn't utility.
12) Add the 25% increased damage on Pyro! to Pyroblasts cast while PoM is active. That's not enough though. Bring back LB spreading through IB.

These 12 questions are not enough. I could write you a book full of 5.2 mage issues. Actually, I'm going to answer for the other two specs.

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Frost
2) Sims, dummy.
3) Logs are as fire.
4) Arcane, it was nerfed in to the ground.
5) Similar to everyone

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 506
7) No on demand FoF, occasionally having to AT with only a single charge. Long streaks of just frostbolt.
8) Because arcane is garbage.
9) If you're prepared for the movement and have a FoF and BF saved, it's not awful.
10) Mediocre.
11) Mage utility lol.
12) Return the FoF proc from Freeze or give us Water Jet.

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Arcane
2) Dummy, sims.
3) Logs are as fire.
4) No.
5) Similar to everyone

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 506
7) Minimal damage while moving, low arcane missiles proc rate, poor mana regen, RoP functions like a ball and chain, no aoe.
8) For the sake of this post, I didn't.
9) What damage? Lol.
10) Should be higher considering how piss poor our moving damage is.
11) Lol mage utility.
12) More arcane missiles procs, a spell to cast while moving, RoP being castable while moving, or instant cast but with a short cooldown.
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Fire spec exclusively. I'll never go Arcane or Frost I'd quit or reroll if Fire is ever broken.

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)? Nothing 5.2 yet aside from clearing trash in ToT. 5mans, LFR, 8/16 normal

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful): I'll get back to you on that

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? That'll never happen lol

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? Slightly higher ilevel to equal ilevel

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel? 591

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? I am seeing a decrease in dps with the loss of LB Cleave. Biggest issue is the loss of dps from the Pyroblast nerf and therefore Combustion

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? N/A

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage? I've got Scorch back no complaints.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? Will likely scale better as I replace my current gear to 5.2 gear but it feels about 10 to 15k dps less maybe even 20k.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? Glyph of Evocation I think was overnerfed. 10% heal seems low. 20% was high I understand the reason for the nerf but I believe 15% would've been the better solution.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?

a) Pyroblast has its direct damage buffed by 5%.
b) Critical Mass back to 1.5
Awesome, thanks for making a focused, cohesive thread instead of just unhelpful wallow of misery the Mage boards have been the past few days. I'll have stuff to post after Saturday night.

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Frost

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
Normal 10/then heroic

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xq2bj1mlyub6p9zz/sum/damageDone/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? I was arcane

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? The lock is around me a couple of others are above me by a few with top being 500

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?
Disappointed at the unjustified random nature of the balancing of the class.
It looks like they are balancing around the top 1% and not realizing the outsized impact
their decisions have on a majority of players.

6) What is your average ilevel? 496

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
The L90 talents. They are bad. movement based raids requiring you to stand still.
Then other classes can move around with FULL DPS with impunity.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? Arcane was 20% lower than frost.
Did not gem or chant for fire to know the difference there. 20% is massive.
Arcane was gutted and eviscerated.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
Not as good as hunters or warlocks or ele shamans now that we do not have scorch.
That was HUGE.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
Here is good. This is all we do stand still and shoot...we move...we suck.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
Not so good....time warp...shared with 2 other classes....mage table...no use in combat.
The buff is nice but that about does it...other classes are richer and more diverse
than this.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
The level 90 talents need to be redone to that they are not a liability.

heres all the data you need .......

mages over nerfed in all aspects

bottom of the barrel dps, the most skilled/geared push up to mid

as a dps class that brings almost nothing to the table(no healthstones, no off specs, no off healing, no b rez ,no ability to have different buffs for your team,etc etc...) to be nerfed well below all the other dps is one of the poorest developer moves in a long time

from a personal perspective:
8 year mage main ,raided everything thing in this game since day 1,tons of heroics when was current content, over 600 days played, sub never lapsed once....

after testing yesterday,was retired.im sure you or anyone for that matter doesnt cares but heck theres some insight for you

blizz will be lucky if i give them another dime

theres your data.......

you dont need a raiding survey to figure out the sad state that blizz put mages in.
check WoL,test yourself ,and you have your answers.........
[I]
1) Fire
2) Solo, 5-mans, LFR 5/5, 10-man normals on occasion
3) "ain't nobody got time for that"
4) No I did not change for 5.2. I was fire in 5.1, and I am fire still in 5.2.
5) Generally above-average compared to LFR group members

[II]
6) 488
7) Fire spec dps isn't competitive, even when you're doing everything right with gear+rotation. -10% pyro nerf pretty much killed it.
8) n/a
9) I like fire spec's movement damage mechanics, but in terms of how high/low the numbers are.. I'm not happy with it anymore. Making living bomb not spread anymore really hurt us. It wasn't just the fact that it was aoe, but the fact that it was viable aoe that could be applied ON THE MOVE. [living bomb] + [inferno blast] to spread it could all be done while moving. As you're aware of now, the spells spread by inferno blast now (pyro+igite) require standing and casting as setup. (I know combustion is instant, but must first be preceded with fireball or pyro).
10) Stand still damage was BARELY comparable with 5.1 arcane/frost before the nerf. Now it's just a joke and it's not even close. I went from avg 90k dps to avg 65k dps, using the same exact rotation.
11) Mages are worthless to raids now. The only thing that made them worth bringing in a raid was because of their high damage. If you take away our damage, we're a really squishy class that has a handful of cheap tricks that don't add up to anything.
12) I do very much feel that fire has gone down the drain with the raw numbers loss. All 3 specs should be able to have comparable dps. I love the playstyle of fire which is why I will continue to play it even though its about 20-25k dps less than what I could do with frost. I should not be pigeon-holed into another spec just to get more dps.

Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?


1) Frost
2) 10N ToT
3)
Jin:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/n0xronbbotmn5g4w/sum/damageDone/?s=2054&e=2329
Best Horridon wipe:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/n0xronbbotmn5g4w/sum/damageDone/?s=7035&e=7284
4) Arcane to Frost
5) I'm in the same ilvl range as the rest of the dps in my raid.

6) 496
7) None - I'm more tolerant of poor QoL than most
8) Arcane needs to do above-average standstill dps to be worth the mobility tradeoff. It isn't there now.
9) Acceptable. Ice floes, bomb refresh, and procs cover most of the required movement. Prolonged movement would be bad but I don't really have a problem with ranged in general suffering from movement.
10) Average
11) Poor. Non-existent for me since we have a shaman, so time warp is redundant. I have plenty of personal utility skills which are nice, but nothing to benefit the raid.
12) Buff ice lance by 15% and drop it from the frostbolt debuff. It'd ease the rampup issue with target switches.

Additional comments:
Could pick up an extra 10k on Jin with better lust/cd timing and lightning orb RNG, which would put my dps in a very respectable place for my gear. 135k at the 4:08 mark on Horridon is close to what I'd expect out of similarly geared classes who excel at adds/aoe (frost dk, moonkin, shadow, affliction).

I think I'm in an okay place personally, but I don't think the class is in good shape overall. I believe average skill mages in normal modes with normal mode gear will have a rough time this tier. This is based on the raidbots data from T14 normals, which showed fire and frost to be at the lower middle to bottom of the charts. Arcane was gutted, fire was nerfed, and frost was buffed slightly - adjusting those numbers to account for nerfs will put all 3 mage specs in the bottom 3rd.

Sure you can cite spec bias (better players play the best spec), but I'm not convinced that it has much of an effect here since we're talking about the performance of average players, not the capability of each spec.
When we say something is horrible, it's not because we're confused and don't understand what's happening. It's because it's horrible.


This.
03/06/2013 06:33 PMPosted by Karinà
When we say something is horrible, it's not because we're confused and don't understand what's happening. It's because it's horrible.


This.


This. I am pretty much done with raiding till something happens to make Mages worth playing again. Pet Battles are the only thing I log on for now mostly, and I may drop my sub for the first time since I started almost four years ago.
Here is my Jin'Rokh log with me running as frost on Lissanda tonight (we're working on horidon but haven't gotten a kill yet). There is a surprising number of people doing about the same damage on that kill.

Part 1:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization? Frost

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2? 25-man raiding

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1xkvj57c4wdo32ek/sum/damageDone/?s=884&e=1149

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? No. I was frost in 5.1.

5) Ilevel: Here's Lissanda's armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/elune/Lissanda/simple
My ilevel is just around 500 (similar to my raid overall)
What's your gear level for the character in that log?
What's your gear level for the character in that log?

Now that my raid is over, I posted up my mages armory and such in the earlier post.
Thank you Lissanna for this effort.
I must warn you of two things.

1) LHivera did somewthing like this years ago to my knowledge, and got BANNED. This was during the time of the INFAMOUS "Mage Tax", where primary mage spells, AND ONLY mage spells were SPECIFICALLY NERFED to receive less spell power than any other class.

2) This is the 2nd time in mage history, we the mages have to go PROOVE something to the bly devs.

In regarding #1, just consult with LHivera on that. It was a STUPID techincal TOA thingy, and my INTERPRETATION of it being similar to your efforts here may be COMPLETELY WRONG. I hope so, I would be saddened to see anything happen to you. TY so much for this effort.

In ragarding #2. OH MY WAND, why are WE THE PLAYERS having to even SLIGHTLY PROOVE ANYTHING to these LOSERS, AGAIN!
Way back during the INFAMOUS "Mage Tax" days, between LHivera's WONDERFUL number crunching, and logs, and testimonies, and STARK SAD RESULTS of "Why bring a mage?", WE THE PLAYERS went to FANTASTIC LENGTHS to proove the STUPIDITY of their BALANCE MONGERING. And we the mages, basically missed out on all the raid content during the TBC days. There were even interviews by bly devs to raid leaders that did the TOP raids of the days, including Sunwell, and they OPENLY TOLD bly devs, that mages were a detriment to the raid, EVEN WITH Arcane Brilliance as a loss.

This effort of WE THE PLAYERS, getting anything fixed/changed from these BALANCE MONGERERS is simply going to FRUSTRATE and CULTIVATE their HATE for mages, YET AGAIN. And it is HATE. They'll never admit that in any manner, but their actions have always spoken the truth about that.

I submit to you, that the bly devs were planning to remove some of these NERFS anyways, but will still keep mages WAY below where they were, and especially NOT on top dps, for ANYTHING PERIOD. And when they revert some of the NERFS, they'll say something like, "We heard from the community blah blah blah", just to appease us.

My recommendation to you Lissanna, is put your VERY VALUABLE time and effort into contacting some other MMO company, and relate to them of these STUPID NERFS, and ask them to pledge a MMO with better respect for players who want to play a mage class as a TRUE glass cannon class.
03/06/2013 09:17 PMPosted by Noixi
Thank you Lissanna for this effort.


Take your medication before posting in the future.

I swapped to my healer because they figured we'd beat the first boss easier 3 healing. They were right.
Just an FYI - Lissanna, my guild discovered WoL parses for Ji-Kun aren't particularly good, much like Sha of Fear parses due to range issues on the combat log.

Also, for many guilds it's not registering kills as kills for Ji-Kun. Even if they are, the buff from the feed can prop up a few players and you might see some mages suggest a low number due to a bad strat or nefarious purposes.
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) Arcane (but currently trying out all three specs to figure out what works best)
2) As of now, just LFRs, my guild doesn't raid until Sun/Mon.
3) N/A
4) Yes, I was Arcane, now I'm attempting to make ANYTHING but Arcane work.
5) Yeah, my ilvl is within about 5 from everyone else that I raid with.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) 478
7) Arcane is a pure DPS spec that has to stand still to maximize DPS in a world where no fights allow for much standing still.
8) I am dropping Arcane because my DPS was effectively halved -- last Monday, running MSV, I was doing in the area of 90k DPS against Elegon. Fast-forward to fighting Protectors of the Endless in LFR today, and I was struggling to even break 40k DPS.
9) Utter crap.
10) Obviously better than our movement DPS, but still utter crap overall.
11) "Mage table, please!" And that's about it.
12) Give us Scorch back, or something similar. We need a filler that can be cast on the fly, and we need a way to better manage our mana. Rune of Power is unusable in any fight that requires a lot of movement, and Invocation isn't cutting it either. We are a pure DPS class that was nerfed to be middle of the pack, but we offer no utility in exchange for our DPS cuts. Furthermore, I believe that the rotation I'm forced to use now as Arcane is boring and mind-numbingly dull as opposed to the better variety we had in 5.1.

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