Mage 5.2 PVE raiding survey

Mage
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Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Now Frost is my raiding spec, after having tried fire and saw the dismal numbers, comparatively to people I had been raiding with all patch, and heroics, and LFR.
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
Killed first boss in ToT, attempts on second, and cleared HoF I think. LFR and Heroics.
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
no logs available, sry.
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
I was Arc MS for raiding, and Fire OS pre-5.2. I tried fire, using PoM. I played with the three bottom talents, and all were underwhelming. I am now Frost for raiding, and PVP. Was fire pvp before, now it's horrid without the LB cleave and others.
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
I had no new gear from pre-patch. I used all my valor upgrading. (not great idea in hindsight, but meh, it is what it is!)
Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?
I have had my mage as my main since Vanilla. This is the 2nd time I have felt bad being a part of our raids. They could replace me with anyone and get more out of it. Sunwell II. Never forget!

6) What is your average ilevel?
494-495, before and after patch.
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
There is nothing wrong with Frost, imho. I just don't like playing it.
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
The dmg on every fight was so horribly lower post-patch.
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
Movement is a dps loss, or should be for everyone. Not really concerned with it. You can always do something while moving, shield, re-apply dot, etc...
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
I feel like my dmg makes me a liability to my raid.
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
I can pull mobs with my Water Elemental...
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
My problem is being pigeon-holed into my current spec. Frost is ok, and should be where it is, middle of the pack with it's slowing utilities. Fire has no such benifit, but is behind frost. In my raids, I was neck and neck with our top dps. As Fire, I was 10k behind them post patch, same gear. Upon that, Frost was the only option.

Sunwell II. Never forget!

Soltarnal, Undead Mage (this is bank toon)
Skullcrusher, Destinys Bane
All I know is this 480 mage does about 40 / 50k dps- roughly 20k less than pre-patch, if I nail my rotation.

My 470 Ele sham is pulling 105 / 130k reliably just spamming Chain Lightning with a few Earthquakes.
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?

First Raid night I was fire, now playing as frost

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?

10-normal, solo, 5-mans, scenarios

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):

None sorry.

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?

I was arcane

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?

Everyone ranges 490-500

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

I've hated the level 90 talents since they've been implemented. They each have serious issues that have always made they feel like something annoying rather than a buff. They don't feel like a reward for reaching level 90

6) What is your average ilevel?

Now at 499

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?

With invocation, the heal from the evocation glyph is miserable. A pitiful 10%. It's done to stop people from spamming it in PvP, yet mages never spam evo in PvE. Most mages would use invo on CD, with it's occasional use as an "oh no" button. Now it's like I'm a disc priest having to use a combination of shields and things to PREVENT damage, but basically nothing worthwhile to help me recover health while in combat. Meanwhile, I don't have this problem at all when playing my lock, druid, or priest, so I feel extremely squishy as a mage.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?

The arcane playstyle I chose to learn was scorchweaving. Arcane no longer had scorch. I was also originally fire because I like the run and shoot playstyle. Hence, I was hoping to return to fire with 5.2, but the DPS is just too inconsistent: one minute high, the next minute low. People think I'm suddenly play really good or really bad when it's really nothing but RNG on a particular pull.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?

So clunky, non-existant, and probably the primary reason why I hate playing my mage right now and find playing my alts more fun. Right now I'm playing as frost, and ice flows works fine, but the CD on it is simply too long still. Considering they made scorch baseline for fire, I think it would be to also make ice lance baseline for frost, and have it do as much damage as scorch does for fire. That way, each spec has its own signature movement spell. Arcane could have barrage for movement, as it does now, but I guess anything for arcane runs into issues regarding mana cost and stack dropping, so not sure what blizzard wants there. I was personally starting to kinda like scorch weaving, or at least when I could just stand and pew pew. But they killed it, and my item level is under 500, so I'm going frost for now I think. Need more AOE damage too.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?

I think it's fine honestly. My DPS seems ok when using a target dummy.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?

I have one job: Press Timewarp when the RL wants it. Whenever there's another shaman or mage available to do that, the utility I bring drops to zero. There's nothing to poly, no curse to remove, nothing to cc in general frankly, and people got their own food now. They don't even care much for my ports now and typically just hearth wherever. I have one job: I press a button at some point, and considering that takes no skill, it could be any mage doing it.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?

-Improve Damage while moving

-Completely reworking the level 90 talents by having them rotate around spell power only, with no reference to mana management, and not effecting other spells. It should feel like just an addition, like applying a shield: nothing else has really changed except a shield has been added on

-Give Mage Specs their own resource systems. Mage specs are especially affected by scaling because their strength is largely related to their secondary stats. If warlocks worked like mages, the number of ember stones would be affected by crit: 1 ember at 10%, 2 embers at 20%, 3 embers at 30%; of course, lock specs don't work like that, but that's pretty much what happens to fire mages. Destruction warlocks value crit, but crit alone isn't determining how many chaos bolts they fire off, just it's ultimate damage. In the case of a fire mage, however, crit affects now only the damage of a pyroblast, but even the chance of firing a pyroblast!
My 470 Ele sham is pulling 105 / 130k reliably just spamming Chain Lightning with a few Earthquakes


I know what you mean. I can pull similar damage to my mage on my ilevel 468 warlock,....and that is on a toon whose rotation I still haven't mastered.
Part 1: Show me the numbers:

1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Frost/Fire

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
10 man raiding, 5 mans, solo, LFR

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6z1xvmq2d9j69dze/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
5.0- Fire, 5.1 Arcane, 5.2 Frost

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
All members of the raid are 510 +/- 5 ilvls.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
511

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
1) Frozen Orb could be more reliable as far as targeting. Some Megaera attempts, it targeted the trash behind us instead of the boss. It also ~feels~ like you need to be close to melee range in order to waste less time traveling.
2) Long periods of downtime casting a relatively weak frostbolt. It may just seem that way because I am used to playing OP arcane. I find myself bored waiting for frozen orb to come off cooldown.
3) Bomb choice has become obsolete. It is NT for EVERYTHING or gtfo.
4) Procs. NT provides MF procs very randomly. Having a queue of only 1 MF proc as opposed to 2 FoF procs can make managing procs somewhat stressful especially during burst phases where gcds are used on other abilities. Long story short, despite me trying to use procs as soon as they pop, I feel like I still waste a good amount of procs.
5) Movement. Most other classes are either not penalized or penalized little for moving. I feel that frost damage could be competitive with other specs on Megaera and Ji-kun if moving wasn't so penalizing. Icy Flows is just not enough to keep up with the amount of movement these fights required.
6) AOE. Outside of frozen orb, all specializations of mage aoe is pretty terrible. Glyphed CoC with shatter is pretty good, but you always have to worry about gibbing a melee when you frost nova/pet freeze. We have so many aoe abilities, flame strike, blizzard, arcane explosion, cone of cold, dragon's breath... but all of them are pretty bad. It also doesn't make sense that we have all these aoe tools at our disposal, its like someone forgot to take some out when they changed class specializations.
7) No specialization. Frost isn't particularly good at AOE, it isn't particularly good at 2-3 target fights, it isn't particularly good at single target fights, it isn't particularly good at movement fights. The only thing frost is particularly good at is kiting, which hasn't been a mechanic since firelands... and even then MM hunters and Frost DK's did it better.
8) No raid utility. Besides not having certain fights play to frost's strengths, we bring little to the raid besides our dps. We are amazing at keeping ourselves alive between our level 30 and level 60 talents + iceblock, but other classes are to. However, we don't bring anything to help out other members of the raid like every other class does (outside of hunters who can bring any buff the raid needs).
9) Rotation. Despite developers not liking players not dropping stacks with scorch, it was a very dynamic playstyle that actually required a decent amount of skill to execute with perfection. Frost on the other hand is keeping up your mage bomb, spamming frostbolt and whacking your procs when they are up. It isn't very engaging.
10) Would be nice to have frostbolt debuff on target instead be a buff on the player to make target swapping less punishing.
11) Like its been said a million times, the lvl 90 talents are !@#$. 15% damage increase is the benefit of being stuck in a tiny circle, yet you get the same damage increase if you cast a spell that is 1 second longer and then you are free to move where ever you want? It doesn't make sense on a design level, and it plays out just terribly.
12) Inability to smoothly change specs because of game developers failure to balance the game. Fire is crit, frost is haste, arcane--was--mastery. Every patch has borderline required mages to move to a different spec, yet each spec requires a player to itemize differently, making this rollercoaster ride EXTREMELY unpleasant and over penalizing to the players when class balance is no fault of their own.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
Arcane damage was nerfed through the ground. The change to make evocation consume charges also doesn't feel right. Arcane is now unable to function in movement fights. But because my gear was itemized for mastery Arcane, I am unable to play fire, so frost was the only remaining choice.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
There are times I find myself still having to move, icy flows is on cooldown, bomb is refreshed, blink on cd, all instant procs used, and i just end up spamming ice lance so I don't feel like I am doing nothing. At BEST I give it a 5/10. When I compare to other classes mobility 2/10.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
It can compete with other classes movement damage.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
Don't have any. Rogues have smoke bomb. Priests have VE+bubble (which also increases speed)+life swap+hymm+life grip. Warlocks have summoning portals, healthstones, soulstones, demonic gateway (both for movement and threat dump). Warriors have banners. I could keep going on, but we literally are the only class that doesn't bring something unique to the raid.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Frostbolt debuff becomes a buff on the player like arcane charges.
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Frost, considering fire if I can get some crit gear to drop.

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
I have done heroic 5 mans, solo for dailies/rares, Oondasta, LFR, 10 man normal Throne of Thunder, and rare hunting groups on the isle of thunder/giants.

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jw4vgdxumryax4ce/sum/damageDone/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i5jc1o3j3l5k296y/sum/damageDone/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
Yes I did, I was arcane before but it is near useless now with lack of damage and no control/aoe/movement.

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
I think the highest ilevel is 5 above me, there's one or two below me.

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
501

7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization? Frost currently has a really hard time swapping with the 3 stacks of frostbolt, still hard to move even with icelance procs up, and pretty low on meters for the effort I'm putting in.
Arcane doesn't seem to do any damage anymore even in ideal situations and with how many fights have adds it has very little aoe power.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
Arcane's damage was lowered too much and it's lack of aoe power and lack of movement really sealed it's fate.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
It's pretty hard to get too much movement dps as frost unless you have a frozen orb up for procs.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
Sadly it's still low, and if you add in swap fights like council or any fight with adds then you're losing those 3 frostbolt stacks and your dps goes even lower.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
I do feel somewhat useful as frost for slows, but if damage was higher the slow wouldn't really be needed.

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Higher damage:
Scorch may of been misused for arcane but it was nice to have a damage on the move even if it was low without any procs.
Simple stand still damage is pretty low and I'm not sure why.
Frostbolt stacks being able to transfer, or being on player for the dmg portion would be really good.
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Fire
2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
Atm 25 normal and dgs.
3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/238897/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/117871/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/178107/
4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before?
Yes, scorch-weaving
5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid?
Average

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?
6) What is your average ilevel?
509
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
I do not have a competitive damage and the only raid utility i have is to create an extra void-zone (Rune of Power)
8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?
Its unviable to play arcane on heavy moviment fights and i enjoy fire
9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
Low
10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage?
Low
11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids?
Nonexistent
12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Some way to do Aoe damage and one spec that can do single-target damage
03/08/2013 08:18 AMPosted by Lissanna
Because data isn't the same thing as fact.


Lissanna, if you can't even acknowledge that facts are data, then I don't see why you're even attempting to do a survey.

This is especially true given how poorly WOL is recording fights right now - with many people reporting that WOL didn't record some of their fights thus far this week. Bad data into WOL means we have bad data to interpret on the other side.


BS.

The only problem with World of Logs is that large combat logs aren't getting uploaded because they're too big for the client to handle.

I've had no problems with my LFR and 10 man combat logs.
I'm spending a few more hours going over the survey responses today. I'm not likely going to otherwise reply to threads today. I have made it through cataloging about half of the responses so far, since I had a few hours on Fri/Sat to start getting the data more organized. For people who raid on weekends, you can still add posts to this thread and I'll add them as needed.
Hi Lissanna,

I posted on page 2 originally. Here are more logs from last night for Animus, Iron Quon, and Consorts (all 25 man). I imagine you don't have much data for these late bosses so wanted to give some. Also my ilvl for these was up to 511, which I believe is still probably fairly close to the rest of the raid, if not slightly ahead of the curve.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q4i9bz5qgec2mte0/sum/damageDone/?enc=kills

Thanks again for your work on this!
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Frost at the moment than fire.

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
25 man heroic. Right now were 6/12 regular

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7sgd317teuiddpa3/sum/damageDone/?s=1280&e=1801

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? I was arcane prior to 5.2

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? I am much lowered gear than most people in my guild. I just switched guilds

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
490
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
As frost I feel like I have completely no control over proc rates and sometimes can be spammed with procs all at once and then none for 2 mins. Really hurts with movement. I jus switched from my shadow priest because of the same problems. They now feel worse than I did which is terrible.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change? Arcane might do comparable dps to a rogue auto swinging.

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
If I have procs I can do OK. With out it it feels terrible as all I have is spam Ice Lance.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? Frost is lacking but understandable. Fire can do OK with some good luck with crits. but I dont have the gear level for fire yet.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? What utility?

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?

Frost needs to have scailing fixed and less penalty for switching targets
Fire needs to be less reactive and more proactive.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q4i9bz5qgec2mte0/sum/damageDone/?enc=kills


The relative ranking in these logs is very similar to what we had in our raids last night as well. Rogues seem to be doing well - which is good since rogues are probably the least represented class atm. Shadow Priests are doing pretty well.

SV hunters, frost DKs simply rock meters on anything that has some AoE. Like Tortas, e.g.

Honestly, I do not foresee a lot of guilds bringing mages for heroic fights when heroics unlock next week. As a guild master, I pretty much consider us mages liabilities at this point and need to be replaced with higher DPS classes for better progression.
Part 1: Show me the numbers:
1) What is your current 5.2 specialization?
Frost

2) What type of content have you run in 5.2 (5-mans, solo, LFR, 10-normal, 25-normal, etc)?
10-man normal, LFR, 5 mans

3) Link(s) to 5.2 raid logs on your mage (even LFR logs are useful):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4yw18gpmbzwxj687/sum/damageDone/

4) Did you change specializations for 5.2? If you changed specs for 5.2, what spec were you before? Changed to frost after 5.1 changes

5) Is your ilevel generally around the same range as your other raid members from the logs you posted? If not, are you over-geared or under-geared compared to the other members of your raid? within +/-5

Part 2: How are you feeling about your mage?

6) What is your average ilevel?
485
7) What quality of life problems are you seeing with your current specialization?
The Procs for fingers of frost from the water elemental is very random rather than 100% with its aoe attack.

8) If you changed specializations, why did you change?

9) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's movement damage?
If I have procs I can do OK. With out it it feels terrible as all I have is spam Ice Lance.

10) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's stand-still damage? Frost is lacking but understandable. Fire can do OK with some good luck with crits. but I dont have the gear level for fire yet.

11) Overall, how do you feel about your current spec's utility in raids? What utility?

12) If you could change one thing to improve your current spec, what would it be?
Give back scorch for movement and the ability to spread living bomb again for aoe.
Fingers crossed...

GC says mage dps is low, hope they do it right and don't over/under buff us, just bring our numbers to where they should be plz bliz, give the dps their job back. Don't make us bring out the puppies!

Source - https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/311278474507714563

Made me lol - http://www.thedailyblink.com/2013/03/donate-and-buff-a-mage-in-need/

PS. To the MVPs and everyone that posted here, even if this work didn't have anything to do with the coming changes, thank you for the organization and thoughtfulness. Nice to see what a community can do together.
*GASP!*
Fingers crossed...

GC says mage dps is low, hope they do it right and don't over/under buff us, just bring our numbers to where they should be plz bliz, give the dps their job back. Don't make us bring out the puppies!

Source - https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/311278474507714563

Made me lol - http://www.thedailyblink.com/2013/03/donate-and-buff-a-mage-in-need/

PS. To the MVPs and everyone that posted here, even if this work didn't have anything to do with the coming changes, thank you for the organization and thoughtfulness. Nice to see what a community can do together.


Yup. I sent in a final report about the survey data after GC's response on twitter, hoping for long-term quality of life fixes aside from whatever "flat" damage buff they put in. I'm going to suspend the survey data collection/analyzing at this point since we should see at least some damage tweaking in the next few days. I'll be personally keeping a close eye on how things develop.
Yup. I sent in a final report about the survey data after GC's response on twitter, hoping for long-term quality of life fixes aside from whatever "flat" damage buff they put in. I'm going to suspend the survey data collection/analyzing at this point since we should see at least some damage tweaking in the next few days. I'll be personally keeping a close eye on how things develop.


Can I count on you to do a warlock survey if we ever get the mage 5.2 treatment? I promise we're not so bad over in the lock forums....
03/12/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Kursed
Yup. I sent in a final report about the survey data after GC's response on twitter, hoping for long-term quality of life fixes aside from whatever "flat" damage buff they put in. I'm going to suspend the survey data collection/analyzing at this point since we should see at least some damage tweaking in the next few days. I'll be personally keeping a close eye on how things develop.


Can I count on you to do a warlock survey if we ever get the mage 5.2 treatment? I promise we're not so bad over in the lock forums....


Let em burn! (insert evil laugh)

J/K

I think its safe to say that while we might not campaign directly, this thread shows the power of an organized community. Locks are good right now not just b/c they have top level dps numbers but because they got some awesome tools and QoL fixes. A class that is fun to play can survive middle level dps.

Mages are (hopefully) getting a dps buff that will make us viable again but we do need similar utility/QoL changes. Mage mechanics just are too clunky, the specs are polar opposites rather than just different focuses/jobs.

I like some of the ideas on new utility like the ability to make a mana gem table like locks cookies. Thinking like that is what Mages need to be more attractive and fun again.

Either way dps will help as that is our main offering to the raid groups.
40% buff to bombs, interesting choice

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/256667-class-hotfixes-3-12/

I guess it helps total dps and makes movement less punishing for 2/3 of the bombs.

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