Fistweaving still worth it?

Monk
03/06/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Aztonishing
Nonetheless, I think fistweaving saw significant improvement in this last patch.


I beg to differ. Fistweaving was closer to atonement as a healing tool before 5.2. I could heal garalon through ReM-Eminence without ever even touching uplift. Right now it's more of a gimmick tool like resto shaman's LvB-LB. You can use it to deal damage. At the expense of actual healing.
It is virtually impossible to melee in raids at this point. Unless there is little damage, or there is a damage modifier in the fight, there is no point. The chi you generate from jab has to be spent on BoK or TP and those abilities don't do enough healing for a raid boss. The primary means of chi generation now (outside of expel harm and RM) is channeling soothing mists. Therefore, if you aren't burning chi you need to be channeling that ability. There is no room to waste multiple globals doing 20-30k hps through eminence... it just doesn't work unless, as I said, there is little to heal or there is a damage modifying mechanic.

Which means that blizzard has succeeded in their dark goal. They have turned a melee healing class that was interesting, unique, and fun into a traditional healer that has, what amounts to, a situational atonement mechanic.
03/06/2013 10:55 AMPosted by Xiaowu
Nonetheless, I think fistweaving saw significant improvement in this last patch.


I beg to differ. Fistweaving was closer to atonement as a healing tool before 5.2. I could heal garalon through ReM-Eminence without ever even touching uplift. Right now it's more of a gimmick tool like resto shaman's LvB-LB. You can use it to deal damage. At the expense of actual healing.


I don't follow. We do more fistweaving healing now than we did before, and the costs are relatively lower. (Jab costs 0% more when you're appropriately using Muscle Memory, Chi Wave/Burst has no resource cost, Jade Statue is now free, Renewing Mists costs 10% less mana, and Blackout Kick now restores mana).

Eminence now does half has much healing, but we're doing almost three times as much damage as we were pre-patch. The result is more healing, more damage, higher mana efficiency. I don't understand how you can say that's anything but a step forward. What am I missing?
What am I missing?


You're missing that you're healing at most ~2/3 as much as you were before 5.2 through fistweaving. It was originally a healing tool, not a dps tool, it doesn't matter if you do 100% more damage than before. Go ahead and try it on a raid. It is not sustainable.
03/06/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Xiaowu
What am I missing?


You're missing that you're healing at most ~2/3 as much as you were before 5.2 through fistweaving. It was originally a healing tool, not a dps tool, it doesn't matter if you do 100% more damage than before. Go ahead and try it on a raid. It is not sustainable.


That's simply not true. Healing output is significantly higher than it was before. We're doing three times more damage than we were previously. Even though eminence and serpent's zeal healing was halved, half of 300% is still larger than what we were doing before.

The meters are pretty clear on this. Fistweaving is doing more healing, not less.
No... its not. Your tiger palm does a little more healing, but its smart healing nonsense. Uplift was what kept the raid alive fistweaving in 5.1 and that is gone. Doing tiger palm spam will generally just oom you even with mana tea on cd if you try to keep everyone up. Honestly try it even in nerfed HoF last night it wasn't even close to enough on boss fights.

Edit: if they made it take 3 tiger palms for a free surging mist instead of 5 ~.~ might be a different story though.


You're missing that you're healing at most ~2/3 as much as you were before 5.2 through fistweaving. It was originally a healing tool, not a dps tool, it doesn't matter if you do 100% more damage than before. Go ahead and try it on a raid. It is not sustainable.


That's simply not true. Healing output is significantly higher than it was before. We're doing three times more damage than we were previously. Even though eminence and serpent's zeal healing was halved, half of 300% is still larger than what we were doing before.

The meters are pretty clear on this. Fistweaving is doing more healing, not less.


You're both talking about different things. Pure Fistweaving (Jab/TP/BoK with ReM on CD) will do more healing in 5.2 than the same rotation did in 5.1 but in 5.2 we can't Jab without TP or we'll go OOM pretty fast.

That means during high raid damage we can't use jab for efficient Chi Building to use Uplift. That means LESS overall healing.

You're both talking about different things. Pure Fistweaving (Jab/TP/BoK with ReM on CD) will do more healing in 5.2 than the same rotation did in 5.1 but in 5.2 we can't Jab without TP or we'll go OOM pretty fast.


Correct, but Xiaowu was claiming that pure Fistweaving was reporting lower numbers, Uplift excluded. See this quote:



I beg to differ. I could heal garalon through ReM-Eminence without ever even touching uplift. You can use it to deal damage. At the expense of actual healing.


I continue to assert this is factually incorrect, and that fistweaving is doing MORE healing now, not less.

The loss of uplift is something else entirely. I fully understand that this will see an overall healing reduction in raids, but I also think that decoupling jab and uplift is necessary for the long term good of the class. The cheap/fast chi from Jab was skewing the performance of our secondary resource system. I do think that Mistweavers will need more buffs to be competitive in 25-man environments, but I think that killing jab-jab-uplift will un-muddy the waters a bit and make it easier for Blizz to do it's fine tuning.

This thread was asking for feedback about the state of Fistweaving. I think Fistweaving is solidly improved (and probably OP in certain challenge modes). The class needs some help in 25-man, but that was true before 5.2 as well.
You're both talking about different things. Pure Fistweaving (Jab/TP/BoK with ReM on CD) will do more healing in 5.2 than the same rotation did in 5.1 but in 5.2 we can't Jab without TP or we'll go OOM pretty fast.

That means during high raid damage we can't use jab for efficient Chi Building to use Uplift. That means LESS overall healing.


I've noticed significant improvements on Chi generation from Soothing Mists. Perhaps the best solution during raid-wide AOE is to cast Soothing while spamming Uplift?

My problem with this is that we lose Eminence, which diminishes our AOE healing contributions.

Assuming you're making regular use of Renewing Mists, my read on the strategies I've considered are as follows:

1. Fistweaving does light AOE through Eminence with moderate ST through Serpent's Zeal for moderate costs. This seems like a reasonable tactic in "default" situations where the tank is taking moderate damage but there is little to no raid or party damage.

2. Mistweaving does light ST through Soothing Mists and, and strong AOE through Uplift for relatively low costs. This seems like a reasonable tactic during heavy AOE phases.

3. Mistweaving does strong ST through Soothing Mists, Surging Mists, and Enveloping Mists and moderate AOE (again, assuming ReM on regular use) at a moderate cost. This seems like a reasonable tactic when a small number of the people take heavy damage.

4. Fistweaving does heavy AOE through Eminence (auto-attacks), Serpent's Zeal (Tiger Palm) and Uplift at a very (prohibitively) heavy cost. This was a default tactic for many Mistweavers pre-5.2 that Blizzard wanted gone. They seem to have done a good job of accomplishing that goal.

The confusion I feel here is that the light AOE from Eminence and the strong AOE from Uplift practically exclude each other now. I can't benefit from Eminence while I'm casting Soothing Mists to charge Uplifts, and I can't generate Chi to charge Uplifts by Jabbing for long.

Light AOE comes from meleeing (with judicious use of Jab to fuel TP and BOK), but effective, practical AOE comes from Soothing Mist to fuel Uplift. As long as the Chi generation from Soothing Mists is reliable enough, this can work effectively, but it just doesn't feel as FUN as it used to. SM > Uplift is no more interesting to me than Jab-Jab-Uplift was before. Yes, we'll be weaving Expel Harm and Renewing Mists into our Soothing Mists now to supplement Chi generation, but weren't we doing that before 5.2 anyway?

To me, these new styles feel...clunky's the best word I can think of at the moment. Maybe it's by design, but it doesn't feel good to sacrifice my light AOE in order to accomplish heavy AOE. I still feel like I want more harmony between Soothing Mists and Eminence.

If you read this thing, thanks for indulging me. I'm not sure I know what solutions to propose yet, but I know that issues of throughput and resource management aside, I feel like 5.2 has moved us away from the idea what we all thought made Mistweavers unique and interesting to play.
03/06/2013 11:46 AMPosted by Zootzoot
You're both talking about different things. Pure Fistweaving (Jab/TP/BoK with ReM on CD) will do more healing in 5.2 than the same rotation did in 5.1 but in 5.2 we can't Jab without TP or we'll go OOM pretty fast.


No it won't do more healing. I tested it thoroughly throughout the PTR. You do more damage, yes, but fistweaving healing throughput is reduced.
You're both talking about different things. Pure Fistweaving (Jab/TP/BoK with ReM on CD) will do more healing in 5.2 than the same rotation did in 5.1 but in 5.2 we can't Jab without TP or we'll go OOM pretty fast.


No it won't do more healing. I tested it thoroughly throughout the PTR. You do more damage, yes, but fistweaving healing throughput is reduced.


I suggest then, that you are not performing the rotation correctly, or perhaps had a flaw in your testing methodology. The meters are pretty clear when it comes to fistweaving: (Non-uplift) healing numbers are quite a bit up from where they were in 5.1.

Can you provide the data you gathered from your thorough PTR testing? Were your tests all done when the mana nerfs were heavier than they ended up being on live?
Can you provide the data you gathered from your thorough PTR testing? Were your tests all done when the mana nerfs were heavier than they ended up being on live?


All my numbers are posted throughout the PTR class and tier set issues, mostly in part III.
03/06/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Xiaowu
You're both talking about different things. Pure Fistweaving (Jab/TP/BoK with ReM on CD) will do more healing in 5.2 than the same rotation did in 5.1 but in 5.2 we can't Jab without TP or we'll go OOM pretty fast.


No it won't do more healing. I tested it thoroughly throughout the PTR. You do more damage, yes, but fistweaving healing throughput is reduced.


How can that be?

Jab/TP does 5 times more damage than in 5.1. Doubled TP baseline then another 150% with MM. Unless I'm misreading the tooltip.

Even with Eminence and SZ halved the extra damage should math out to more healing from that cycle.
Even with Eminence and SZ halved the extra damage should math out to more healing from that cycle


Only TP had its base damage doubled. Jab's damage is slightly increased, BoK has increased damage only through MM, autoattack damage remains the same. Meanwhile eminence and SZ were cut in half. After testing on the PTR the healing throughput was roughly 2/3 as in live, with damage increased by about 70%.
03/06/2013 04:35 PMPosted by Xiaowu
Even with Eminence and SZ halved the extra damage should math out to more healing from that cycle


Only TP had its base damage doubled. Jab's damage is slightly increased, BoK has increased damage only through MM, autoattack damage remains the same. Meanwhile eminence and SZ were cut in half. After testing on the PTR the healing throughput was roughly 2/3 as in live, with damage increased by about 70%.


Jab's healing/dmg was always irrelevent. Tiger Palm's massive increase in damage provides more healing, for half the chi, that Blackout Kick did prior to 5.1. Not only does it hit much, much harder, it also allows you to do this twice as much as you could with Blackout Kick previously. I think you need to test on live, because you should be seeing what everyone else is seeing: fistweaving's damage AND healing have both gone up.
I think you need to test on live, because you should be seeing what everyone else is seeing: fistweaving's damage AND healing have both gone up.


I did test simultaneously on live and PTR, the numbers are all there. If you feel your eminence healing has gone up (beside the fact you stopped uplifting and started dumping chi through fistweaving), kudos for you. But it is not the case.
That's simply not true. Healing output is significantly higher than it was before. We're doing three times more damage than we were previously. Even though eminence and serpent's zeal healing was halved, half of 300% is still larger than what we were doing before.

The meters are pretty clear on this. Fistweaving is doing more healing, not less.


Actually, looking at parses from the first few nights of throne, this is just not true.
I can point out some of it.

Eminence healing itself didn't really take a nerf, it just got restructured. which has a nice offside bonus of mistweavers can actually do some damage now; which is nice for soloing around the world.

you don't NEED to build chi as fast; because there are less things to spend chi on now!. Like normal healing. you should not be hitting a button to heal if a heal isn;t needed. that where jab is wasting your mana. TP & BK are wasting your chi.

Triage is now part of fistweaving and it's for the better.

with the Jab/bk mana issue; it's not SUPPOSED to Build Mana; It's supposed to offset the cost of the jabs spent to get the chi to BK. think of it as kind of a Spend 8, get 4 return. if it was free healing; what would be the point of having mana? we could be an energy based healer for that matter.


But doesn't BoK requires 2 chi which requires 2 jabs, which requires 16% mana for a 4% return...right? Thats a 12% loss in mana.
I just got done Fistweaving some 5mans just to test it out and it does feel a lot better.

If you manage Muscle Memory well, you end up using the same net amount of mana per Jab that you were in 5.1, except in addition the skills are beefed up like crazy.

The nerf to Serpent's Zeal is a straight nerf, though, but getting heals from autoattacks doesn't require skill or.. anything really, so I'm not really worried about it. If most of your healing was coming from that in 5.1, then that is a problem.

If you want to Blackout Kick, you have several options: Jab once for Muscle Memory of course, then use Expel Harm, or Renewing Mists, or spec into Power Strikes, or wait until you have 5 stacks of the Surging Mists buff, or at the very very very least, try channeling Soothing Mists to see if you'll get a Chi.

Basically, for Fistweaving, you will use Jab -> TP -> Jab -> TP most of the time. This heals a lot of moderate damage. If you need to BoK, see above. You just need to be very careful about how you use Jab now, you can't just sit around and spam it like Windwalkers anymore.


They said in the patch notes for the Monk class there reason for this change was to get us to use our other abilities more. How is spamming jab and Tiger getting us to use them more? Either we aren't seeing something that they seriously need to point out to us or they borked it. Which basically comes down to they're either geniuses or total morons.
But doesn't BoK requires 2 chi which requires 2 jabs, which requires 16% mana for a 4% return...right? Thats a 12% loss in mana.


If you have Power Strikes, you can occasionally Jab once for 2 Chi, and then immediately spend it on BoK. That's even more effective if there is more than one thing to hit. Though, if there are three enemy targets, SCK --> BoK is the way to go. SCK actually costs less than Jab now. It's kind of sad.

As for using our other abilities more, I find I'm watching when I use Jab significantly more than I was before the patch. So the mana cost boost succeeded in that regard as I try to get the Chi for a BoK/Uplift from another source, like SoM, ReM, CJL, or Expel Harm and Jab only when I want the MM proc. Also, I STILL use Chi Wave on cooldown, except now lets me still put out some extra healing/damage for no resource cost at all.

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