Monk Review doesn't address the damage nerfs

Monk
And in here ... I see PvE heroes ... (usually use a different name for them but I'll be somewhat civil) who probably don't even PvP AT ALL ... and have absolutely no idea how much impact this re-balancing of DPS will affect PvP.


Yes the carebears are out in force. This was supposed to be a patch for bringing WW monks to a higher representation in rated pvp (not just doing a few bgs). To nerf all monks because of a few CBs getting a gimmick trinket is not thought out. Most will not see the trinket that causes these inflated numbers (especially the pvpers).
I think alot of people really upset about the 10 percent damge buff reduction from tiger stance. But if you think about its fair. imagine with 4percent per stack. you dont need to wait for 10 stack 5 stack is good enough to get 20 percent more damge. that about 30 sec.. with 20 +20 = 40 percent from tiger stance before nerf. is that just too much dmage. I play a monk but that just asking too much. Smart players dont just wait for 10 stacks they figure out what better to do. In pvp when healer is 50 percent hp.. i would not wait for all my stack to used it .. i used it earlier to get that extra push to kill.


40% is too much damage? Holy avenger gives 30 and avenging wrath gives 20 = 50% increase. Are retadins op? Not at all.
03/08/2013 04:09 PMPosted by Kungfuboubou
I think alot of people really upset about the 10 percent damge buff reduction from tiger stance. But if you think about its fair. imagine with 4percent per stack. you dont need to wait for 10 stack 5 stack is good enough to get 20 percent more damge. that about 30 sec.. with 20 +20 = 40 percent from tiger stance before nerf. is that just too much dmage. I play a monk but that just asking too much. Smart players dont just wait for 10 stacks they figure out what better to do. In pvp when healer is 50 percent hp.. i would not wait for all my stack to used it .. i used it earlier to get that extra push to kill.


40% is too much damage? Holy avenger gives 30 and avenging wrath gives 20 = 50% increase. Are retadins op? Not at all.


though to be fair holy avenger is on a 2 min cooldown, and lasts 18 seconds.
avenging wrath is on a 3 min cooldown, and lasts 20 seconds.
Just be happy this was not a pvp problem. Monks would have been god mode for months!
Those poor warriors and mages don't get the kind of attention we do, be thankful! /sarcasm
I am not asking to be overpowered but I know I am now pulling a lot less then I was in 5.1 so the 10% is hard to understand.

Talking about a rets long dps cd isnt going to help, those are clearly different things. We are built around the idea that will be using this skill once everyone 20-30 seconds. TEB is a ferals savage roar or a pallies inq or a rogues slice and dice. They are all different and clearly not pure dmg buffs like TEB but they are buffs that they need to watch and keep up.

I am not in full heroic thunder forged gear right now nor will I ever be. I don't know how they balance or what fights they look at or if they just look at sims like we do, all I know is that I got on one morning pulling a good 2-3k past my norm and then log on later that night pulling a good 8-9k below said norm. I don't care how crazy monks are going to be in 2 months of lucky raiding but if it ends up being a problem, maybe that would be the time to fix it. I want my old monk back.
I'm no expert by any means, but the monks that log on and report their damage dropping, have they adjusted their gems/reforges whatsoever post-5.2? I'm thinking that might also be a huge culprit.
Posted by Kungfuboubou
I think alot of people really upset about the 10 percent damge buff reduction from tiger stance. But if you think about its fair. imagine with 4percent per stack. you dont need to wait for 10 stack 5 stack is good enough to get 20 percent more damge. that about 30 sec.. with 20 +20 = 40 percent from tiger stance before nerf. is that just too much dmage. I play a monk but that just asking too much. Smart players dont just wait for 10 stacks they figure out what better to do. In pvp when healer is 50 percent hp.. i would not wait for all my stack to used it .. i used it earlier to get that extra push to kill.

40% is too much damage? Holy avenger gives 30 and avenging wrath gives 20 = 50% increase. Are retadins op? Not at all.

though to be fair holy avenger is on a 2 min cooldown, and lasts 18 seconds.
avenging wrath is on a 3 min cooldown, and lasts 20 seconds.


and to be more fair holy avenger only work on holy power generations skills
^
And in here ... I see PvE heroes ... (usually use a different name for them but I'll be somewhat civil) who probably don't even PvP AT ALL ... and have absolutely no idea how much impact this re-balancing of DPS will affect PvP.

WW Monk would be a strong class in PvP with the recent changes if they didn't overtune the mastery and left the Stance of the Fierce Tiger damage alone, but now that we ate a 10% overall nerf on top of the RSK nerf, TEB is WAY too important to take someone down ... and that would be just fine IF it didn't take so long to build up to that damage.

Now it's going to be try to survive initial CC & Burst, try to survive while finishing up 10 stacks of TEB to have threatening damage, and then hope you don't get CC'd during your TEB while you attempt to kill a target during that uptime.

This is going to not only gimp WW Monks in Arena especially, but it's also going to limit more comps due to the necessity to survive for x amount of time to build up TEB in order to actually have hopes of killing someone.

In 5.1 it was pressure them with adequate damage until you can TEB and try to finish the job because damage was actually pressuring enough to lower health pools just enough that a properly timed TEB would work well. Now I'm dreading even trying Monk in this next season because of a very poorly thought out "fix" to their OVERTUNED mastery and the lack of sustained pressure. I'm very willing to wager it'll be like trying to kill an easily topped off class due to low pressure in 15 seconds with "uber damage". What a lame, trash, gimmicky mechanic. Not fun, IMO.


WoW is a pve game, pve changes > pvp changes, you will be fixd next patch

Now I did notice a DPS loss, w/o any buffs, even self buffs(i forgot to apply them im bad lel) i did 73k on the dummy, for about 5-7 minutes, That's not terrible i suppose, i !@#$ed up my energy, once as well. Personally I think they need to either put 5% back in, either revert RSK or just make stance 15% instead of 20%. I think it might balance us better ATM, but also we need to take in considering the new gear, the stats are a HUGE increase. Overall for PVE we can perform... %^-* horridon though I can't seem to do !@#$ dps on that fight.
As for the "nerfs" to our dps, they are justified. RsK -5% damage and stance of fierce tiger is about a straight 13% damage reduction.

Note: I'm not posting dps because that's where rng comes into play, and overall where sims are beneficial. Averaging out a couple hundred crits is a fairly accurate way to depict ability scaling and that's all I'm trying to prove.

Running a handful of 10 minute tests self buffed the average crit (with optimal TeB usage, IE during procs thanks to TeB stacking past 10) of RsK for myself is a little over 299k. Capping out at 389 being my highest crit and 199 being my lowest. Pre patch if I recall correctly my average was around the 250 level, with maximums only just pushing 300k

Fists of Fury on the other hand, my max tick crit was 200, average about 165 and lowest being around the 110 level. Add in the fact that using chi wave in open globals accounts for 4.89~% of my damage it's fairly obvious atleast in my eyes that without changing any of my gear aside from reforging that the net effect of the patch is an increase in WW monk's damage.

Do I agree with how we were nerfed? No, it effects pve in the right way. But it hurts pvp too much, and there were other ways they could have reduced our damage to it's current state (where it should be) without negatively impacting our position in rated pvp. But don't start arguing that these nerfs are unjustified in terms of pve and will put us at the bottom of the charts. You as a player not adapting to changes in a class will put you at the bottom.


And it is posts like this that make me sigh. This post comes from a monk who has great gear - better than most. You're describing your perspective which is the minority experience of windwalkers. The majority of the windwalker community - the casual PvE peeps, those who are just behind the curve in regards to raiding, and the PvP walkers aren't going to be seeing the same benefits as you are.

I don't even see how maximum RSK/FoF hits mean anything in PvE. If max hits were a concern look at warlock (destro I think). Was running with one who was simply spamming one attack which had a max crit of 550K and was averaging 385K and it made up 94% of his damage (average dps was about 125K, ilvl was approx 490). It would seem by your rationale that the warlock should receive a similar nerf if not greater considering his max hits were larger than yours with ~20 less ilvls.

If someone can post chi-wave (considering this is the talent the nerf was based on; heaven forbid a windwalker choose zen sphere/chi burst) where it makes up 10% of their overall damage without detriment to any other special attacks I'll become open to the nerf having been counterbalanced. If you manage this also please state if you would prefer the 5.1 stance and chi wave or the 5.2 hotfixed stance and chi wave (so is the added rotational difficulty, loss of healing/survivability potential, and further locked into chi wave worth the 10% flat damage reduction but free harder hitting chi wave but a nearly 100% increased CD).

Actually TEB shouldn't even factor into this - GC clarified that the nerf was in relation to the lvl 30 talents (and that could realistically only be chi wave).
SEF is one of the most useful cleaves in the game, since you don't have to stand next to the targets.

WW Monks can essentially multidot fights like Will of the Emperor.
40% is too much damage? Holy avenger gives 30 and avenging wrath gives 20 = 50% increase. Are retadins op? Not at all.


That's not how it works.
The people in this thread who think monks are godmode because they look at simcraft are morons. That is full T15 BiS, which, btw, no one has yet.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/default/

Monks are not at all strong right now, and the 10% nerf was in no way warranted. A preemptive nerf because of a trinket that almost no one will have for a while is retarded.

The people who think Mastery buff is OP because we get so much of a damage burst, assuming we're talking about pve, all this has done is !@#$ed our burst so hard (because we cant start with TEB), that I get outbursted by our disc priest and resto druids, and hardly benefit from prepots/lust/etc.

SEF is one of the most useful cleaves in the game, since you don't have to stand next to the targets.
WW Monks can essentially multidot fights like Will of the Emperor.


They would have to not die to every raid mechanic on the planet for that to happen.
If people can't understand that this was a heavy handed nerf, due to the fact power strikes is giving 2 chi per proc, and that chi wave is now absolutely mandatory on CD (you can't chose the other 2), then I don't know what to say.

Even then, when you do that, it's still mid-pack. Go try it out, chi wave comes out to like 9% DPS (hence what he was saying about the tier-30 talent explanation).

Not even starting with the Rune of Re-origination balancing, that is a 20% swing for WW monks where it may be 5-8% with other DPS.

This was a complete oversight in their PTR iterations, wasn't caught in testing, and as a result passed on a ridiculous, no explanation nerf.

Expect a rebuff in 2-3 weeks, without an apology, for the amount of condescending attitude the Blizz dev team has shown in the last 24-36 hours.
03/08/2013 03:56 PMPosted by Soldeus
And in here ... I see PvE heroes ... (usually use a different name for them but I'll be somewhat civil) who probably don't even PvP AT ALL ... and have absolutely no idea how much impact this re-balancing of DPS will affect PvP.


Yes the carebears are out in force. This was supposed to be a patch for bringing WW monks to a higher representation in rated pvp (not just doing a few bgs). To nerf all monks because of a few CBs getting a gimmick trinket is not thought out. Most will not see the trinket that causes these inflated numbers (especially the pvpers).


"Waaaah my PvP is screwed up now and it's all the PvE'ers' faults!!!!"

Get over yourself


And it is posts like this that make me sigh. This post comes from a monk who has great gear - better than most. You're describing your perspective which is the minority experience of windwalkers. The majority of the windwalker community - the casual PvE peeps, those who are just behind the curve in regards to raiding, and the PvP walkers aren't going to be seeing the same benefits as you are.

I don't even see how maximum RSK/FoF hits mean anything in PvE. If max hits were a concern look at warlock (destro I think). Was running with one who was simply spamming one attack which had a max crit of 550K and was averaging 385K and it made up 94% of his damage (average dps was about 125K, ilvl was approx 490). It would seem by your rationale that the warlock should receive a similar nerf if not greater considering his max hits were larger than yours with ~20 less ilvls.

If someone can post chi-wave (considering this is the talent the nerf was based on; heaven forbid a windwalker choose zen sphere/chi burst) where it makes up 10% of their overall damage without detriment to any other special attacks I'll become open to the nerf having been counterbalanced. If you manage this also please state if you would prefer the 5.1 stance and chi wave or the 5.2 hotfixed stance and chi wave (so is the added rotational difficulty, loss of healing/survivability potential, and further locked into chi wave worth the 10% flat damage reduction but free harder hitting chi wave but a nearly 100% increased CD).

Actually TEB shouldn't even factor into this - GC clarified that the nerf was in relation to the lvl 30 talents (and that could realistically only be chi wave).


Ability scaling has a direct impact on your dps. The fact that NO ABILITY was nerfed in damage. Means that if one of your abilities increases by 50k average crits... then odds are your overall damage has been buffed, you have the same damage spread between patches. Meaning pre patch you may have had 25% of your damage coming from RsK. If Rsk is still 25% after the patch, and averaging 50k harder hits... then your net dps has increased.

I also don't even understand what gear has to do with what I posted. I gave numbers off my gear. A 50k increase for me might be a 20k increase for someone else. That doesn't change the fact that the latest patch percentage wise has been a net buff to monk dps. Only difference is now you actually have a cooldown that has to be saved for trinket procs, and you have something to cast in your downtime. Many monks probably aren't running icd timers for their trinket(s). Because of this they probably end up wasting 1/2 their 10 stacks which overall is a huge dps loss.

Basically, prepatch the monk dps rotation was a joke. Nothing had to be managed, just simply used on cooldown and that was it. Now there is a minor aspect of complexity, which is at about the same level as any other dps class and the casual monk community is up in arms about how the playstyle of WW has had a minor shift, and because they don't wish /don't realize they have to relearn very simple mechanics the patch to them looks like a nerf.

Mind you, as I said in my original post this is in terms of pve. I've already said my part on pvp.
Let's blame PvE'ers!
03/08/2013 06:41 PMPosted by Mayliene


Yes the carebears are out in force. This was supposed to be a patch for bringing WW monks to a higher representation in rated pvp (not just doing a few bgs). To nerf all monks because of a few CBs getting a gimmick trinket is not thought out. Most will not see the trinket that causes these inflated numbers (especially the pvpers).


"Waaaah my PvE is screwed up now and it's all the PvP'ers' faults!!!!"

Get over yourself

See how easy that is?
See how easy that is?


How easy what is? you turning my words around as if they make sense that way?

I'm not going to deny a lot of PvE'ers say that kind of thing as well, but that certainly isn't the case now

and PvP'ers do it all. The. Time.

Having a problem in PvP? Blame the PvE community. Not doing enough damage? PvE'ers' faults. Not being able to keep people alive with your heals? Light-damned PvE'ers!

Don't get me wrong. I don't have anything against PvP'ers, do what you like and I'll do what I like, and we can all get along.

I just hate people that have a superiority complex
who has 40.4k followers


You don't need to be a "follower" to read what somebody said on twitter any more than an "official post" would magically send an in-game mail to every single subscriber in wow.

What more are you asking for? everyone in this thread who cares already knows about it, so it's official enough. This isn't some back-alley second-hand info.
Oh shut up.

We're the highest DPS class right now. They just made it harder to play a monk.

The removal of our mastery changing our combo breaker has caused the style of game play to shift.


Actual logs http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/100/14/60/default/ You shut up.
03/08/2013 07:26 PMPosted by Stalkings
who has 40.4k followers


You don't need to be a "follower" to read what somebody said on twitter any more than an "official post" would magically send an in-game mail to every single subscriber in wow.

What more are you asking for? everyone in this thread who cares already knows about it, so it's official enough. This isn't some back-alley second-hand info.


So now you're saying ghost crawler's twitter is the official voice of wow's dev team?

So when he tweated that silencing an enhance shaman was like disarming a mage, that's the official blizzard stance, and not just Greg Street being Greg Street and talking out of his !@#? GC has said himself that his twitter account is his own PERSONAL twitter account.

When bliz makes a change, they post it on their website, because...it's the official blizzard website..

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