10/25 Man loot

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03/09/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Espe
For instance, you can't carry anyone through 10m.


All the 10m sales runs carrying one player seem to disagree with you.

I just saw a warlock last night with 5 thunderforged items already, now thats some serious luck


Probably some combination of that and the guild feeding him gear.

Actually, as the WoW Devs have stated more than once, 25m raiders get more rewards for easier content. There is no question about who has the higher executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden.


They have never said this. And on most fights your second statement is simply untrue - I would cite Amber-Shaper, but that one is just too easy. Look at Windlord, with Wind Bombs. You have the same amount of space on the platform, but many more players. That makes staying out of Wind Bombs substantially more difficult. It also makes running out with Amber Traps and finding an open space more difficult. On any stacking fight it is easier to see your character and easier to see others who aren't stacked with the raid.

03/09/2013 11:08 AMPosted by Nixxe
We DE a ton of gear because it's useless.


This definitely does occur in both 10m and 25m. For those who talk about gearing off-specs, let's not be silly. There is almost never enough gear to form a viable OS during the progression race, especially when you factor in tier. Personally, I had an easier time gearing my Feral OS in a 10m in t11 than I did in a 25m.

Assuming no bench players (when you account for their existence the numbers favor 25m even more) there are twice as many 16/16h raiders in 25m as in 10m (approximately the same number of guilds). There are slightly more 25m raiders that have killed Heroic Empress than 10m raiders. However, when you drop down to guilds that have killed 1 heroic, or guilds that have killed 1 boss, there are about 5 times as many 10m raiders. Many people prefer 25m to 10m - perhaps more than prefer 10m, though that is hard to say - as it is illogical to assume everyone that does 25m does it for prestige (I certainly don't). The burdens of maintaining a roster of SIMILARLY SKILLED players is simply too high at a more casual level of play. When was the last time you saw a 25m pug for current content? I rarely do, and Illidan is probably best poised to support them. I tried to form a 25m guild on my old server, but there weren't enough skilled players to form a competitive guild (by which I mean clearing half of the heroics while current, as an optimistic goal).

Asking these players to wait a few weeks while you try to form a 25m is often not realistic. Cross-realm 25m for current tier has its perks, but it almost guarantees no mid-low tier 25m guilds will be formed on any but the most populous servers. If they already can do it cross-realm, why form a guild for it? And why limit it to 25m? It is a dangerous road.

I think the best way for Blizzard to facilitate the survival of 25m guilds is to create an environment in which they can thrive. They have gone out of their way to mark MVPs on the forums - do the same with raid leaders. Create a forum or website where these MVP raid leaders have some control (in-game would be ideal, but I feel that is less realistic, and the calendar can already serve part of this function). Each server could have one, and ideally a few raid leaders interested in leading it. Require a specific item level, or create a few brackets, depending on server population. When raid time comes, the raid leader will form with whoever has signed up. If the group is overly full, the raid leader will pick by lottery, while still picking a group of classes that is capable of success. Loot will be assigned by a method announced clearly ahead of time, either by a point system or random roll (as a loot council is more likely to lead to the better players quickly gearing up and leaving). After the raid, the raid leader will be able to assign players +/- adjustments to their item level, similar to a golf handicap, so future groups are more appropriately balanced.

Introducing more casual players to 25m raids will hopefully encourage them to form raid groups of their own, perhaps with friends they met in these runs. If these players decide to play more seriously they are more likely to stick to the 25m format. Perhaps allow these runs to be cross-realm (within a specific pool of realms) to increase the pool of players and diversity of 25m groups that can be formed, then allow players who particularly enjoy each other's company and wish to form a group of their own to transfer to a selected server for free or a reduced rate, along with others who have been involved in this program (limited, of course, to once every few months or more).
03/09/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Nixxe
Except for the fact that 10-man requires more personal accountability. It's so, so, so much easier to carry people on 25-man.


I see 10 man raiders say this a lot. It simply isn't true. I also have to say I really don't feel like your lack of heroic raiding experience gives you any credibility on the subject. You can carry anyone through normals on either difficulty. They're easy. Most of the heroics you have downed are incredibly easy too and can have people carried through them.

How many people have raided the same tier as progression in both 10 and 25 man in recent tiers? I know I have. Twice. 10 mans were easier every step of the way, with the exception of H Hagara.

No poison dispel, no disease dispel.


You kill the mobs that AOE poison bolt before it stacks too high...


Heroic spine with out a 'bench' of people to bring in for stacking fights. Though IMO Heroic Spine sucked for pretty much everyone.

I did raid 25s in Cata, and in Wrath. It was easier to do many things on 25 man. Which isn't to say that there weren't some things easier on 10 man, but in general any 25 man problem was answered by 1) bring an extra healer 2) bring an extra tank or 3) bring an extra dps. In 10's it's A LOT harder to make up that- you drop a healer for a dps, it's usually a) offspec and b) less geared/sub-optimally geared and you've just lost 1/3 of your healing team.

Disclaimer: I did not raid heroic 25s in Cata.

Also, there's 3 mobs that stack that debuff.

2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps. The debuff lasts a minute, and stacks. There's also a dinomancer to kill at some point, and the venomous infusions to kill. Even pre-marking them, and assigning interrupts there were still 3 stacks on everyone before the mobs died.

Personally, for me, I don't think that 10s or 25s are harder or easier. I think certain fights will be/are harder or easier on 10 man/25 man. I do agree that it's harder on 10 man inside the instance, versus being harder outside the instance for 25s. I also think that blizzard's idea of 'making it harder' involves how much healing is needed versus how much damage you need to do.
03/09/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Harleym
The burdens of maintaining a roster of SIMILARLY SKILLED players is simply too high at a more casual level of play.


This is a big thing. Bad 25 mans split into 10 mans. Bad 10 mans just stay 10 man. If you want to be a successful 25 man in this day and age, you simply have to be able to achieve results at a reasonable pace, otherwise you'll bleed people until you get forced into going 10 man.
03/09/2013 11:33 AMPosted by Espe
How about you enjoy the format you prefer and be happy this isn't Wrath?


All I want is to recieve the equal reward for equal difficultly. Currently that is not possible for dedicated 10m raiders.

25m has all of the advantages and none of the drawbacks.

*Less executional responsibility per person.
*More Battle rezes per attempt.
*Higher chance of drops actually being used.
*Much easier time with desired raid comps.
*More loot per kill.
*And now more TF gear per kill.

Telling me to suck it up because Wrath was terrible does not make this a better game. All I'm asking is to level the playing field instead of constantly capitulating to children who want to be carried to easy epics in LFR/25m.


Dedicated raiders are after the reward of killing the bosses, not getting the gear, so your view is skewed from the start.

As I stated earlier, most of those are either debatable or justified (IE, you can't have 2.5 battle rezzes), and 25s are still dwindling even with those supposed advantages.
03/09/2013 02:45 AMPosted by Rygarius
Then on top of that I found out about the t15 token changes, where it isn't a guaranteed drop in 10 man anymore, 0-2 tokens can drop, and in 25 2-4 tokens can drop. Which puts double RNG into tier, making it especially bad for 10 man cause they can continuously get zero tier. On top of that 10 man is tuned much tighter then 25. 1 Person messes up your likely to wipe unless you really outgear the content. It seems blizzard is trying to completely revive 25 mans and put 10 mans in its grave..

Having 0 tier tokens drop for 10 person raid groups was unintended. We're currently looking to address this in a coming hotfix similar to the one that had been implemented for 25 person raid groups.

From [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693/"]Patch 5.2 Hotfixes - March 7[/url]:
•The appropriate number of tier tokens should now drop for 25-player normal and heroic difficulties.


Can you also double check if thunderforged drops are working properly in both formats too? Thanks.
To be honest 25 mans need to be preserved for the fact that a game with 34ish specs and only 10 slots is just asking for trouble.

I knew a couple of very very good players who stuck to 25 man guilds because she was a shaman and he was a feral. They knew that no 10 man would take the combo because no 10 man would want more than one melee, and even then they would want at least one strength and one agility for loot reasons. In a 25 man team they found a place because class restrictions are not nearly as strict.
If blizzard is truly about "bring the player, not the class" as they so claim they realize this as well.

The best solution to 25 man raiding is 10 buck server transfers but who knows if blizzard would take the pay cut to see that happen. Megaservers like stormrage could continue to grow to support 25 man raids as those who want to raid 25s but are stuck doing 10s on a backwater server can finally make the jump.
In their particular case I've heard it had less to do with being able to find good players who wanted to raid with them and more to do with keeping their identity as a Swedish guild.


Their inability to find good (Swedish) players.
03/09/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Harleym
All the 10m sales runs carrying one player seem to disagree with you.


At the end of long, easy tiers? Yeah, and 25m guilds never sell full clears to multiple people on a single lockout. Totally unheard of.

03/09/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Harleym
They have never said this.


And I quote:

In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.


03/09/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Harleym
I tried to form a 25m guild on my old server, but there weren't enough skilled players to form a competitive guild


You have to start somewhere. Sometimes that means developing talent if you can't vulture it off of other guilds around you (or whatever you were planning on doing). I don't understand what you expected here but it doesn't strike me as being anything close to realistic.

03/09/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Harleym
They have gone out of their way to mark MVPs on the forums - do the same with raid leaders. Create a forum or website where these MVP raid leaders have some control (in-game would be ideal, but I feel that is less realistic, and the calendar can already serve part of this function). Each server could have one, and ideally a few raid leaders interested in leading it.


I actually like this idea, and I believe that is what players are trying to achieve with the Oqueue addon, as it saves statistics for raid leaders and lets you know at a glance who the best are from the main menu. Having this built in to the game would be awesome.

This still doesn't address the fundamental issue, however. 25m having so many crutches/advantages over 10m does not make the game any better. Continuing to throw more crutches under 25m raiders will not help. The game needs equal risk vs. reward for both styles of raiding. All that I am asking is for 25m raiders to have the courage to step up and say the same thing. No one cares that you were carried or for how long, we just want this game to become more balanced rather than less.
So.. you're saying your post has no real relevance. Fine by me. Thanks.
It has no relevance to you because your scope is limited.

So if everything you're saying only applied to the world progression guilds, what the hell does it have to do with anything this thread is talking about?
You've limited the scope, I've only provided examples that more than 1 person would be familiar with. I could've said Insight of US-Medivh or Meridian of US-Ghostlands, but most readers would think, "who?". The problem with giving examples is that someone will always try to limit the scope to labels.

03/09/2013 11:08 AMPosted by Nixxe
Look, it's great that you're concerned about your loot and all, but if you don't raid 25 mans, stop talking about how they work. I'm really tired of clueless 10 man raiders trying to use how they think 25 mans work as an argument for why 10 man raiders have it so rough. We DE a ton of gear because it's useless. Hell, stuff almost got DE'd this week on THE FIRST WEEK OF THE RAID because when you get poorly itemized pieces that overlap with existing 2/2 heroic tier sets, people don't really gain anything jumping to them.
I raid 25m. I won't claim to be the authoritative expert as your statement attempts to lead others to believe, but 25m does DE less gear than 10m simply because of their raid makeup. With a maximum of 10 of the 34 class/spec combinations represented, there is a higher likelihood items will be unusable than in a 25m that can use a wider range of gear drops. This has always been an advantage of 25m since the shared lockout was implemented and gear was flattened out between 10 and 25.

You're also comparing upgraded heroic T14 gear to normal gear. Heroic gear has rarely been upgraded with good normal items with the exception of trinkets and tier pieces. Even then, dropping a 4pc for a normal 2pc has been a difficult decision for some classes during many tiers. You'll be doing normal modes for how long? With any success, you should be looking at heroic upgrades very soon, then most items shouldn't be getting DE'd. It will be the same case in 10m, however, they won't be able to use items more often based on raid makeup ... not because its simply bad RNG.

received 12 shields in our first 5 kills
Bad RNG is something both 10m and 25m has difficulty with and players will always complain about. That's the con of using RNG.
Should just get rid of 25 man raiding, TBH.

You did it with 40 man, 25 mans are a dying thing.

If anything, shift them to 15 man. The guilds who have issues (which even Blizzard has said very few exist) can split the group into 15 and 10 man.


You could even solve the lfr problem by turning all 2 tank fights into just one: thus, you'd have 3 healers, 1 tank, 11 dps.
03/09/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Espe
Sometimes that means developing talent


ROFL. You are clueless.
Heroic spine with out a 'bench' of people to bring in for stacking fights. Though IMO Heroic Spine sucked for pretty much everyone.

I did raid 25s in Cata, and in Wrath. It was easier to do many things on 25 man. Which isn't to say that there weren't some things easier on 10 man, but in general any 25 man problem was answered by 1) bring an extra healer 2) bring an extra tank or 3) bring an extra dps. In 10's it's A LOT harder to make up that- you drop a healer for a dps, it's usually a) offspec and b) less geared/sub-optimally geared and you've just lost 1/3 of your healing team.

Disclaimer: I did not raid heroic 25s in Cata.

Also, there's 3 mobs that stack that debuff.

2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps. The debuff lasts a minute, and stacks. There's also a dinomancer to kill at some point, and the venomous infusions to kill. Even pre-marking them, and assigning interrupts there were still 3 stacks on everyone before the mobs died.

Personally, for me, I don't think that 10s or 25s are harder or easier. I think certain fights will be/are harder or easier on 10 man/25 man. I do agree that it's harder on 10 man inside the instance, versus being harder outside the instance for 25s. I also think that blizzard's idea of 'making it harder' involves how much healing is needed versus how much damage you need to do.


I killed Heroic Spine on 10 man as well, but at 25%. I can assure you that the 25 man guild that crumbled to form the 10 man group I was in couldn't have killed it at 30%. At that point the #1 most important thing that helped us down it, besides the buff obviously, was simply the reduced number of people to potentially screw up a pull. That was most of our DS experience. The rest of it, in particular Blackhorn and Zon'ozz, was me doing stupid amounts of damage to make up for the damage other people weren't doing. For instance on Blackhorn I did double the damage of the #2 person, a fire mage, and my output pretty much determined whether or not drakes died in one pass. I would agree 10 mans have it rougher carrying one person, but they also have it easier carrying an entire raid. One bad player hurts more. One good player helps more. I raided both Dragon Soul and Firelands as progression in 25 and 10 man groups formed out of the same pool of raiders and 10 man was easier across the board, except for H Hagara which was just plain annoying. We killed two new bosses in 10 H Firelands the week before Dragon Soul released, when on 25 man I wouldn't say we ever even had H Shannox truly on farm because every pull someone new screwed up traps.

Having been GM of that guild for part of its existence as a 25 and its entire tenure as a 10, I can say it's night and day. The moment we went 10 man, my stress evaporated and the guild nearly ran itself because there weren't all that many people to take care of.

03/09/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Bozidar
I raid 25m. I won't claim to be the authoritative expert as your statement attempts to lead others to believe, but 25m does DE less gear than 10m simply because of their raid makeup.


He said rarely. I simply said it wasn't rarely. I'm not disputing less.
This still doesn't address the fundamental issue, however. 25m having so many crutches/advantages over 10m does not make the game any better. Continuing to throw more crutches under 25m raiders will not help. The game needs equal risk vs. reward for both styles of raiding. All that I am asking is for 25m raiders to have the courage to step up and say the same thing. No one cares that you were carried or for how long, we just want this game to become more balanced rather than less.


Find me a solution where equal risk vs. reward doesn't mean "25 man eventually dies," then.

Those "crutches/advantages" don't seem to be making the game any worse, either.

Let's go over them for the hell of it.

*Less executional responsibility per person.
*More Battle rezes per attempt.
*Higher chance of drops actually being used.
*Much easier time with desired raid comps.
*More loot per kill.
*And now more TF gear per kill.


1) Debatable on a fight to fight basis.

2) Can't have 2.5 battle rezzes. How exactly would you address this one? If you make it two, then the advantage just shifts to 10s. Since you want equality this one looks like it's impossible to change unless you change the raid size (screw that) or battle rez is removed completely (good luck with that).

4) Debatable again. An example is that 10s have been notoriously bad for melee.

3 and 5) 25s tend to have a bigger bench and a roster that fluctuates more, so they need the additional loot in order to encourage flexibility. Naturally, TF in turn discourages flexibility, which is why...

6) If you read the huge thread with the original announcement, most 25 raiders agreed that the TF change wasn't going to accomplish what they wanted it to accomplish (although it was later stated that the "accomplishment" was merely a side benefit to the original idea). They basically tried to sell the side benefit off as something larger than it was and failed at it.

You've limited the scope, I've only provided examples that more than 1 person would be familiar with. I could've said Insight of US-Medivh or Meridian of US-Ghostlands, but most readers would think, "who?". The problem with giving examples is that someone will always try to limit the scope to labels.


Uh, no, you limited the scope by saying that the "average raider" never sees any of those advantages.

You also implied that the scope was very limited when you said I was out of context by applying them to a larger amount of raiders. You can't have it both ways. Either the scope is limited or I didn't take what you said out of context.
03/09/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Plethora
Heroic spine with out a 'bench' of people to bring in for stacking fights.


This is a good example. There are many, many others. Checking the % completion on wowprogress for 10 vs. 25 relevant kills is a good place to start.

03/09/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Plethora
I did raid 25s in Cata, and in Wrath. It was easier to do many things on 25 man. Which isn't to say that there weren't some things easier on 10 man, but in general any 25 man problem was answered by 1) bring an extra healer 2) bring an extra tank or 3) bring an extra dps. In 10's it's A LOT harder to make up that- you drop a healer for a dps, it's usually a) offspec and b) less geared/sub-optimally geared and you've just lost 1/3 of your healing team.


Shh, don't make too much sense or you'll scare off the rest of the LFR/25m posters and this thread will die!

Also, there's 3 mobs that stack that debuff.

2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps. The debuff lasts a minute, and stacks. There's also a dinomancer to kill at some point, and the venomous infusions to kill. Even pre-marking them, and assigning interrupts there were still 3 stacks on everyone before the mobs died.


Totally balanced...

03/09/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Plethora
I do agree that it's harder on 10 man inside the instance, versus being harder outside the instance for 25s.


And that is completely inline with what the devs have stated over and over again, so it makes sense that you would.
Shh, don't make too much sense or you'll scare off the rest of the LFR/25m posters and this thread will die!


Hm, don't you want it to die? I mean, then you could go back to posting on your main. The only forum posts Espe has ever made have been in this thread, today.

I'm almost tempted to use of one those mods and figure out who your main is.
Hm, don't you want it to die? I mean, then you could go back to posting on your main. The only forum posts Espe has ever made have been in this thread, today.

I'm almost tempted to use of one those mods and figure out who your main is.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/detheroc/Tase/advanced

And that is completely inline with what the devs have stated over and over again, so it makes sense that you would.


It's really too bad these boards don't have moderators.

That's about all I can say at this point, as everything constructive is being drowned out by nonsense.

Luckily, I have faith that Blizzard realizes and understands that they can't continue to take steps to destroy 25 man raiding, and the most recent steps, while far from perfect, are in the correct direction at the very least.

Enjoy being mediocre, regardless of what format you are raiding. Notice all the TOP 10 man guilds (you know, the ones who ACTUALLY have a very solid depth of knowledge related to the subject) posting in this thread - yeah, I don't either.

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