Pandaren are annoying.

Story Forum
But I have never thought of it that way. I always felt the panderens were superior us in all aspect of life. War? They have martial arts. Party? Their brews are the best, even the dwarves admit as much. Moral compass? Only the panderen are truly selfless and just. Their codes being taught and intergerted into the Alliance was what I thought this expansion was about, am I wrong?


No I think you are partially right.

The Pandaren have an idealized lifestyle with the basic problems any society would face, raiders who look to profit from the locals affluent society.

The problem is that it would work in OUR world, but not in Warcraft. Because Satan isn't sitting up on Pluto with the Nine Layers of Baator looking at Asmodeus saying "Soon™"

But in Warcraft, there IS a Devil looking down on us with a massive army of minions just plotting to take us over.
From all the dead pandas and burned villages we see as we level in Pandaria. Also Kun'Lai Summit.

Okay? That's not a majority of the population. And those were a grand total of two villages that may as well have been tricked into joining the Horde and Alliance. I doubt they even know they're joining a war.

Actually the reason we are fighting is because even after the Alliance tries to turn a blind eye to the Horde they go and invade Ashenvale because they need lumber, they also squat on Alterac because all the local Alliance are dead so why not? The dwarves have no right to co-exist on land we rightfully mooched onto and must be purged. Also Forsaken, just Forsaken.

Alterac joined the Horde in the First War.

It's Horde land. Unless you wanna say that the Syndicate owns it.

Ashenvale I can give you, but it only became open war again because the Night Elves cut of trade after Wrathgate. I am not saying it's the Night Elves' responsibility to give the Horde lumber. But I AM saying it was a jerkass move that absolutely ruined relations based off of mutual gain.

It's the Night Elves' fault that relations fell apart (Twilight Hammer's fault too).

Really the Horde said "We are no longer the Dark Horde that tried to genocide all of Azeroth at the behest of our demonic masters. We shall now revere our war-leaders who swore allegiance to the Demonic Lords and will now begin to invade Alliance territory because you won't give it up when we make demands of you." Then the Alliance said "....." in Vanilla and "....." in BC and "What? NO!" in Wrath.

We don't revere Ner'zhul or Gul'dan. So, idk who you're talking about.

Orgrim? Never drank the blood. Never swore allegiance to demons.

Grom? He just wanted power. And he died to undo what he did to himself and the Orcs.

Kargath? We didn't know of his fate until BC (And, frankly, he shouldn't have become a Fel Orc. Just more Horde heroes being killed off).

So, idk what you mean.

But rather than learn anything about us, Taran Zhu goes and accuses us of racism while the Orcs are kidnapping children "Hello? I do believe you have our Idiot Ball from Cataclysm Taran Zhu, and we would like it back before we actually start doing well for ourselves". Also when the first thing a new nation does when they make first contact is bring in a flying aircraft carrier and blow the f&$k out of an entire fleet, pissing them off is just a case of WAAAAAY too dumb to live.

Taran seems pretty confident the Shado-Pan could have defeated both of our offensives. Which, they might have. For every Shado-Pan you see, another may be watching from the darkness.

Taran Zhu is right. This is a war based on petty racism. A Race War. But I'm not saying the Alliance is solely at fault, it's the Horde's as well. Particularly Garrosh for breeding those kinds of people in the Horde. But the Alliance is not free of blame, contrary to popular belief.
Taran Zhu is right. This is a war based on petty racism. A Race War. But I'm not saying the Alliance is solely at fault, it's the Horde's as well. Particularly Garrosh for breeding those kinds of people in the Horde. But the Alliance is not free of blame, contrary to popular belief.


How on earth is this is a race war?

How is based on "petty racism"?

Do you even know why the factions are on Pandaria? Do you know why the war is being fought in the first place?

Here's a hint: It has NOTHING to do with race.
03/20/2013 02:00 PMPosted by Turagent
Do you even know why the factions are on Pandaria? Do you know why the war is being fought in the first place?

Yes. Because Garrosh wants to genocide the races of the Alliance. For petty reasons.

The Alliance isn't petty for defending themselves. But it IS the petty racism in the past that helped breed Garrosh into what he is today. For example, the attack by Horde races of the Twilight's Hammer at the Theramore Summit.

That's something the Twilight's Hammer helped worsen. Racism between the factions.
The Alliance isn't petty for defending themselves. But it IS the petty racism in the past that helped breed Garrosh into what he is today. For example, the attack by Horde races of the Twilight's Hammer at the Theramore Summit.

That's something the Twilight's Hammer helped worsen. Racism between the factions.


But that attack didn't really do anything for Garrosh, he was already in "Take the planet, screw everyone else" mode, and it apparently didn't really affect Varian either.

Garrosh always hated the Alliance, and especially the Humans because he holds them responsible for the Horde not being in charge of the planet.

Varian and friends don't even hate the Horde anymore, it's all about Garrosh. Even after that attack Varian is strictly anti-Garrosh only and will show up to Orgrimmar to nobly save the poor oppressed Horde who've been "put upon by a bad man".

There's a distinctive difference between hating a race, and hating a faction or hating an idea. And lately, we haven't really had any overt cases of racism.
But that attack didn't really do anything for Garrosh, he was already in "Take the planet, screw everyone else" mode, and it apparently didn't really affect Varian either.

Garrosh always hated the Alliance, and especially the Humans because he holds them responsible for the Horde not being in charge of the planet.

But Garrosh could have learned. And we know that he got worse. And things like Theramore did nothing to help the situation.

We know Varian used to hold all Orcs in contempt for what happened to him and Stormwind.

03/20/2013 02:17 PMPosted by Turagent
Varian and friends don't even hate the Horde anymore, it's all about Garrosh.

Tell that to Tyrande.

She may have been stupid in A Little Patience, but if anything, she hated the Horde.
She may have been stupid in A Little Patience, but if anything, she hated the Horde.


Which also isn't racism, especially considering she showed up at Go-el's wedding. If she harbored a "petty hatred" for Orcs, she wouldn't have been there.
great post i agree with you 100% but it even worse then that the paderens are complete squatters living in the ruins of the civilization they themselves destroyed. but instead of removing all traces of the mogu they move into there homes temples and cities. the temples of the crane, tiger, serpent, and ox are all mogu architecture but with mogu statues removed and panderen statues put in.

then theres the whole '"we dont need a standing army" of you dont, its easy to say that when the society you destroyed built a massive wall for you the mantid and yaungol were easily held back by a small elite force because theres a massive wall already there!

and for the whole slavery thing, the pandas need to grow up they talk about slavery like it just happened but it didint it happened 10000 years ago people in the real world can lament slavery and opression because in america equality has only happened wihtin the last 200 years and at a snails pace too, heck i dont think any coulture in the world has gone ten thousand years slavery free.


but the worst part of it all was that the pandas seem to think that the mogu mantid saurok and yaungol were perfectly content to live in the worst areas of pandaria when its obious theyve been attacking the panderen and trying to take back there lands for years in the jade forest the mogu ahad been attacking the panderen village for months before the allince or horde arrived
Alterac joined the Horde in the First War.

It's Horde land. Unless you wanna say that the Syndicate owns it.


Actually, The nation of Alterac joined in the Second War.

That hidden valley that the Frostwolves "squat" in (lolaliens), had been their homes since the First war.

Regardless, it is hardly a case for "Horde aggression".

Here's a hint: It has NOTHING to do with race.


Garrosh wants to free his own race from what he saw as years of oppression and, with the help of the vassal races, slaughter all Alliance races. That constitutes a race war to me.
A bigger Shado-Pan could do it.

If the Shado-Pan and the Order of the Cloud Serpent could have won the Zandalari Wars, as well as keep the Saurok down, the Mantid at bay, and the Mogu down, a much bigger one comprised of all the races could do even better on a larger scale.
you don't get the luxury of making such as argument just as others don't get the luxury of speculating that the second coming of the Legion in the Third War could've been repulsed without Orcs being present as the canon lore hardwired them into the story. So no, they would not have triumphed if the Night Elves failed in the War of the Ancients. 0 indication they ever would've been able to handle it.
you don't get the luxury of making such as argument just as others don't get the luxury of speculating that the second coming of the Legion in the Third War could've been repulsed without Orcs being present as the canon lore hardwired them into the story. So no, they would not have triumphed if the Night Elves failed in the War of the Ancients. 0 indication they ever would've been able to handle it.

We have Word of God saying the Orcs were detrimental.

I'm saying a larger version of the Shado-Pan, most likely not even called the Shado-Pan, comprised of all races, and across both factions, would have been a very powerful force against the Legion, because of the tactics that they employ.

Attack from the darkness. Fight the enemy where they aren't. Always attack from above. If things get dicey, throw dirt in their eyes and hide in the shadows.

The Shado-Pan has been using these tactics to defend Pandaria for at LEAST 9,000 years.
Ashenvale I can give you, but it only became open war again because the Night Elves cut of trade after Wrathgate. I am not saying it's the Night Elves' responsibility to give the Horde lumber. But I AM saying it was a jerkass move that absolutely ruined relations based off of mutual gain.

It's the Night Elves' fault that relations fell apart (Twilight Hammer's fault too).
Night Elves embargo'd the Horde as a result of their being in the Alliance and forcing pressure on the Horde because of the wrathgate. Which was entirely the Horde's fault. Again you don't get to single out on element of the Alliance and stick blame on them and disregard the elements in the Horde responsible for the Wrathgate, which are many, from Sylvanas developing the plague to Thrall not keeping a closer eye on the Forsaken to begin with since there was little reason to trust them. Embargos are a perfectly acceptable response to a sneak attack by rogue Horde elements, the second one that happened in Northrend...
I'm saying a larger version of the Shado-Pan, most likely not even called the Shado-Pan, comprised of all races, and across both factions, would have been a very powerful force against the Legion, because of the tactics that they employ.

Attack from the darkness. Fight the enemy where they aren't. Always attack from above. If things get dicey, throw dirt in their eyes and hide in the shadows.

The Shado-Pan has been using these tactics to defend Pandaria for at LEAST 9,000 years.
Pandaria's threats aren't even a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of Azeroth's conflicts. They are good at keeping the Sha in check, thwacking Mogu, Saurok and Mantid swarms when they come up. They've never fought the Legion, never fought old Gods. Even the Mantid swarm isn't an all out war like the faction war. Their experience is limited.
Night Elves embargo'd the Horde as a result of their being in the Alliance and forcing pressure on the Horde because of the wrathgate. Which was entirely the Horde's fault. Again you don't get to single out on element of the Alliance and stick blame on them and disregard the elements in the Horde responsible for the Wrathgate, which are many, from Sylvanas developing the plague to Thrall not keeping a closer eye on the Forsaken to begin with since there was little reason to trust them. Embargos are a perfectly acceptable response to a sneak attack by rogue Horde elements, the second one that happened in Northrend...

Before Wrathgate, there was 0 controversy about the Forsaken Blight.

What did they embargo for? So the Horde would get a tighter grip on the Forsaken? Okay, they did exactly that.
Pandaria's threats aren't even a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of Azeroth's conflicts. They are good at keeping the Sha in check, thwacking Mogu, Saurok and Mantid swarms when they come up. They've never fought the Legion, never fought old Gods. Even the Mantid swarm isn't an all out war like the faction war. Their experience is limited.

I disagree. Especially when the Shado-Pan were keeping the Mantid, Mogu, Saurok, Sha, and Yaungol down all at the same time before our arrival sparked a Sha outburst.
03/21/2013 01:14 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
Before Wrathgate, there was 0 controversy about the Forsaken Blight.
maybe on horde on account of Thrall being ignorant of its development. On the Alliance there was plenty of concern.

What did they embargo for? So the Horde would get a tighter grip on the Forsaken? Okay, they did exactly that.
let's think about that for a second and how embargos work. Why would you continue to trade with an enemy who has made it clear they have no issue with using those resources to build weapons to kill you. Night Elves aren't shameless profiteers like goblins. Resources traded being turned into weapons used against them and their allies through cowardly sneak attacks shouldn't sit well with anyone. The Horde is the Horde. They don't separate Forsaken action from the rest of the Horde and you can't separate Night Elf action from the rest of the Alliance either.

I disagree. Especially when the Shado-Pan were keeping the Mantid, Mogu, Saurok, Sha, and Yaungol down all at the same time before our arrival sparked a Sha outburst.
No they weren't. The events weren't concurrent. The Sha didn't erupt until we showed up. Mogu invasion doesn't pick up until the story has progressed along through the Golden Lotus story line. They were fighting a losing battle and it took the Alliance and Horde bolstering them to not only reverse the damage they caused but turn the tide of battle on the other fronts. And again, Mogu, Saurok, Sha, Yaungol all the threats of the 5.0-5.1 patch and story are maybe on par with dealing with the Twilight's Hammer as it was at the start of Cata. Zandalari and Thunder King is yet another giant step, following the continued faction war. And one where Alliance and Horde involvement is at the forefront.
maybe on horde on account of Thrall being ignorant of its development. On the Alliance there was plenty of concern.

Before Wrathgate, we had no reason to fear the Blight. It was, and is, an extremely effective weapon. If it was used correctly against the Scourge rather than against Horde and Alliance forces, it would have been a boon rather than a curse.

Alas, that ship has sailed.

03/21/2013 01:22 AMPosted by Suraia
Why would you continue to trade with an enemy who has made it clear they have no issue with using those resources to build weapons to kill you.

The Horde had no interest in using the Blight against the Alliance. That was a rogue faction that kicked Sylvanas out of Lordaeron and put many Forsaken refugees in Orgrimmar.

03/21/2013 01:22 AMPosted by Suraia
No they weren't.

They were because none of them were a problem.

The Mantid have an excuse for not being a problem, maybe even the Sha, but not the others.
Before Wrathgate, we had no reason to fear the Blight. It was, and is, an extremely effective weapon. If it was used correctly against the Scourge rather than against Horde and Alliance forces, it would have been a boon rather than a curse.

Alas, that ship has sailed.
The ship has sailed right into being used against the Alliance, as the Alliance had always worried. Why on earth would you think they wouldn't be worried about it when it was made by an entity that openly hates humanity? A boon? Only a retard would think that, one far stupider than they could conceivably write into the story, which is why they never did. The Alliance knew it was going to be used against them, not the scourge, and lo and behold it was, several times.

The Horde had no interest in using the Blight against the Alliance. That was a rogue faction that kicked Sylvanas out of Lordaeron and put many Forsaken refugees in Orgrimmar.
Wrong again. First the rogue faction only went rogue after Sylvanas had authorized its research and development and perfection of its potency. Sylvanas was responsible for its development. The developers going rogue doesn't really change anything. And secondly, Sylvanas used the plague against the Alliance in Cata... And would've many more times had Garrosh not been there.

They were because none of them were a problem.

The Mantid have an excuse for not being a problem, maybe even the Sha, but not the others.
Mogu have always been thugs and criminals since their fall from power. Bandits and raiders, nothing more. Same with Saurok. The Mogu began to unite when the Zandalari showed up on their shores with their Thunder King prophecy. They help the Mogu get on their feet, and the Mogu in turn, give them a new home.
03/21/2013 01:34 AMPosted by Suraia
The ship has sailed right into being used against the Alliance, as the Alliance had always worried. Why on earth would you think they wouldn't be worried about it when it was made by an entity that openly hates humanity? A boon? Only a retard would think that, one far stupider than they could conceivably write into the story, which is why they never did. The Alliance knew it was going to be used against them, not the scourge, and lo and behold it was, several times.

After Wrathgate it was used against the Alliance.

But before Wrathgate, there was no proof that the Blight would be used against the Alliance. Hell, there was hardly any proof it even existed, since all we had to go on was some low level quests.

03/21/2013 01:34 AMPosted by Suraia
Wrong again. First the rogue faction only went rogue after Sylvanas had authorized its research and development and perfection of its potency. Sylvanas was responsible for its development. The developers going rogue doesn't really change anything. And secondly, Sylvanas used the plague against the Alliance in Cata... And would've many more times had Garrosh not been there.

It's development is irrelevant. Anyone can make a Mana Bomb and do just as much damage as the Blight, and yet the presence of Tactical Mana Bombs on the Isle of Thunder shows it doesn't share the same taboo.

The developers going rogue changes everything. Again, if the Blight were used against the Scourge or the Legion, the Alliance wouldn't cry a peep.

Mogu have always been thugs and criminals since their fall from power. Bandits and raiders, nothing more. Same with Saurok. The Mogu began to unite when the Zandalari showed up on their shores with their Thunder King prophecy. They help the Mogu get on their feet, and the Mogu in turn, give them a new home.

And then there's the Mantid, and the Yaungol, and the Sha. All things that were put down by the Shado-Pan. And for over 9,000 years, has kept them down.

But before Wrathgate, there was no proof that the Blight would be used against the Alliance. Hell, there was hardly any proof it even existed, since all we had to go on was some low level quests.
it wasn't used against the Alliance pre-wrath because it was in development. Again, what kind of brain damaged idiot would think the Forsaken wouldn't use it against the Alliance?

It's development is irrelevant. Anyone can make a Mana Bomb and do just as much damage as the Blight, and yet the presence of Tactical Mana Bombs on the Isle of Thunder shows it doesn't share the same taboo.
because they don't do the same kind of damage. Blight renders an area uninhabitable. Mana bombs don't.

The developers going rogue changes everything. Again, if the Blight were used against the Scourge or the Legion, the Alliance wouldn't cry a peep.
But it wasn't used against those entities, it was used against the Alliance, so why mention it as if it happened? It was being designed as a shock and awe super weapon to use against the Alliance from the start. It just happened to be useful against everything. The developers going rogue changes nothing, Sylvanas got her plague and the research on how to continue making it was not lost or destroyed, which is why those weak scum haul around plague wagons everywhere they set up a base camp.

Mogu have always been thugs and criminals since their fall from power. Bandits and raiders, nothing more. Same with Saurok. The Mogu began to unite when the Zandalari showed up on their shores with their Thunder King prophecy. They help the Mogu get on their feet, and the Mogu in turn, give them a new home.

And then there's the Mantid, and the Yaungol, and the Sha. All things that were put down by the Shado-Pan. And for over 9,000 years, has kept them down.
Mogu were not put down by the Shado-pan, Mogu were defeated by the combined efforts of all the races on Pandaria as well as the Celestial benefactors, 12000 years ago. Grummles stopped delivering food and supplies and started running communications for the rebellion, Hozen began ravaging Mogu bases, Jinyu used their talents to get the elements on their side and the Celestials gave the rebels powerful boons to strike against the Mogu. *After* Lei Shen died. I'm not saying they aren't good at what they do, but what they do is limited to conflicts that as we've shown already, a mere group of adventurers can handle...

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum