The Troll Redemption Movement Continues...

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Cdev will ensure that no matter what the Alliance gets, the Horde will always get something in return.
A one way street since everything lost in cata, regardless of what changes happen in 5.3, 5.4 and 5.5 storylines (and possibly beyond) will not be reflected in the world. Kosak also said "players leveling through the old world will be doing it in the cata timeline, so hooray for being stuck in a past where the Alliance is losing everywhere.
Trolls would be better off if they didn't try starting wars to avenge land lost 30 generations prior by an "enemy" that has largely forgotten about them, while the Trolls some how manage to brood in hate and bigotry for these events as if it were happening to them in the present and not 3000 years ago.

Fun facts:

Humans were actively driving the Mossflayer tribe out of their lands as recently as 10 years ago. The Bronzebeard were invading Winterax land as recently as 5 years ago. The Steamwheedle Cartel have been invading Zul'Farrak territory for the past 5-10 years. Random treasure hunters backed by the Alliance and Horde sacked Zul'Aman less than 5 years ago. The Wildhammer are still encroaching on Revantusk lands (and those of other tribes) to this day.

It's possible what's left of the Zandalar might join the Darkspear.

We can only hope.

Honestly, at this point, I'd settle for the Zandalar becoming neutral friendlies. Definitely better than just hunting them back to Zuldazar (what's left of it, anyways) and killing them all.

Fun facts:

Humans were actively driving the Mossflayer tribe out of their lands as recently as 10 years ago. The Bronzebeard were invading Winterax land as recently as 5 years ago. The Steamwheedle Cartel have been invading Zul'Farrak territory for the past 5-10 years. Random treasure hunters backed by the Alliance and Horde sacked Zul'Aman less than 5 years ago. The Wildhammer are still encroaching on Revantusk lands (and those of other tribes) to this day.
Accurate Facts:
Mossflayers were loyal to Zul'jin and joined in the attack on Lordaeron and Quel'thalas during the second war, agreeing to go to war because a few millennia ago some Amani bruddahs whom he'd have no blood relation to beyond any given random Amani troll got pushed out by the Quel'dorei. Mossflayers, Humans and High Elves all got smacked hard by the Scourge and turned into undead, thus ending the entire story.

Khaz Modan is Dwarf land. Winterax got themselves backhanded on account of they had no problem sacrificing and eating dwarf neighbours just because they could.

Revantusk land is Horde land. Aerie Peak is Alliance land, the conflict exists because of faction lines. Both of them put down the other forest trolls in Hinterlands for going off the deepend.

new conflicts erupted out of millennia old hatred and exacerbated at times, by faction conflict. Trolls are xenophobic racists. It gets them into a lot of trouble.
I'm not even gonna start again, I'll let Kellick do it.
Accurate Facts:

Not so much accurate as made up, considering you actually got one entire tribe wrong.

We know that up until the Scourge invasion (ie. the Third War), Humans were still hunting down the various Trolls still in their ancient lands of Lordaeron, Horde or no, the Wildhammer's history in the Hinterlands consists of two hundred years of invasion, and the Winterax weren't even in Khaz Modan, so... yeah...

Can't help but notice you just skipped the other examples. Maybe you'd like to argue that the Amani were xenophobic for getting their kingdom sacked by strangers out for loot, or how the invasion of Zul'Farrak was motivated by the Sandfury's xenophobia?

Or maybe you'd like to say the Darkspear were xenophobic for being nearly exterminated by the Alliance twice in the last ten years, without warning or provocation?

This idea that the Trolls are somehow universally and extremely xenophobic rather than just, say, quick to not let themselves be wiped out by invaders is very perplexing.
Kellick, once again, I'll ask you to prove that the Trolls did not start hostilities between themselves and the Humans, Elves, and Dwarves. You keep trying to say the Trolls are just gentle giants and they've had a few friends in the past (All of the a-hole races like the Wolvar, Mogu, and Orcs).

If the Trolls were really super nice, why didn't they bring the Humans, Elves, and Dwarves into the fold? Is it explicitly stated they offered these races a dandelion with a gentle hand only for them to blow it away, smack it out of their hand, and then stomp on it just because?

Or maybe it's because the Trolls actively hunt and kill other people for voodoo.

Also the Amani started their conflict with the Horde by killing off their own Gods in order to kill the Blood elves off.

Let's also not forget another certain Troll tribe's desire to summon a God into the mortal plane that was explicitly stated to be an apocalypse scenario.
03/21/2013 05:19 PMPosted by Mordstreich
If the Trolls were really super nice, why didn't they bring the Humans, Elves, and Dwarves into the fold?

Who said anything about Trolls being super nice?

I'm just saying the argument that all Trolls are somehow the most xenophobic thing since sliced bread doesn't make a lick of sense in light of the fact virtually every species on the planet has been making it their personal mission to kill as many as possible.

You know how people are always going on about how the Alliance should want to take back Lordaeron and care enough to do something about it? Or how the Night Elves should take back Ashenvale? Well it's the same thing here.

The Amani lived in much of Lordaeron and Quel'thalas up until 5-10 years ago. The Gurubashi used to live in the area outside Zul'gurub until a few years back. The Sandfury lived in Zul'Farrak until a few years ago. The Drakkari lived in Zul'Drak until a few years ago.

Only here, the invaders who pushed them out of those lands are also the ones who've been continuously pushing them and killing them for some thousands of years.

To call that behaviour xenophobic while ignoring the whole context isn't just a gross oversimplification, it's downright fallacious.

Minor correction(s): The Amani never killed their gods, just found a way to harness their power in their champions (we know they didn't kill them because we talk to the gods in Northrend). Also I never got the feeling the Wolvar were really mean, just kinda dumb (think Hozen). Heck, two of the five tribes we've met were friendly (well, unless you got rep with their opposite faction in one case).
03/21/2013 04:35 PMPosted by Suraia
It's possible what's left of the Zandalar might join the Darkspear.
That'd be a shame and a waste. They should seek out the Night Elves instead...


They'd identify more with the Horde...Like since the Horde has Trolls. The Alliance in every way sees Trolls as a plague
03/18/2013 09:39 PMPosted by Ndea


So the Alliance can't retake Stromgarde for Gilneas because it would be too close to the Forsaken starting zone, but the Trolls can take Stranglethorn Vale which is right next to the Kingdom of Stormwind.

Oh that would go over well =/


Why should the Alliance get anything?


Cause all land be Alliance land mon! uhhh wait i think i got that quote wrong....

I was kinda hoping to see at least one dark troll in WoW by now, I mean at least one of those guys had to at least escape the supposed 'twilight's hammer genocide'.
I'm just saying the argument that all Trolls are somehow the most xenophobic thing since sliced bread doesn't make a lick of sense in light of the fact virtually every species on the planet has been making it their personal mission to kill as many as possible.


Who said anything about Trolls being super nice?


Then perhaps you have your reason as to why people are invading them and killing them. Because they do the same thing to everyone else. When your race builds of a reputation of killing people and using their remains (even their spirits) as fodder for rituals and decoration, there's a good bet that claims of "they're evil" have some merit.

It's possible the Humans/Elves/Dwarves migrated to lands already held by Trolls and the Humans/Elves/Dwarves started the conflict, but I don't know that it's ever explicitly stated who started aggressions between the two.

It's also possible the Trolls instantly attacked any strange outsiders they found in their territories.

You know how people are always going on about how the Alliance should want to take back Lordaeron and care enough to do something about it? Or how the Night Elves should take back Ashenvale? Well it's the same thing here.


And everyone tells them to get over it and deal with it. So...

And one thing that separates the Night elves from the Trolls is that the Night elves made concessions to their aggressing party and at least attempted diplomacy with the younger races. We don't have any evidence besides the Darkspear and Revantusk (who were the runts of their respective social circles and were constantly bullied by the Witherbark/Gurubashi) attempting diplomacy with the other races with the intent of peace and betterment of not only their peoples but to their allies.

The Amani never killed their gods, just found a way to harness their power in their champions (we know they didn't kill them because we talk to the gods in Northrend).


I don't remember this happening. When did this occur? I remember this being the case with Drakkari Gods, but not Amani. Maybe I'm forgetting something. Either way they initiated their conflict with the Horde - the Alliance probably was never canonically there until the Cata revamp.

Also I never got the feeling the Wolvar were really mean


They were insanely aggressive to pretty much everyone they came across and killed Gorlocs simply just because.

To add to this, I understand as a Troll fan the treatment of Trolls probably distresses you, even though it's set up in a way that these other Troll tribes are portrayed in such a way as to make them evil and give us adequate reason to stomp them in for being evil bastards. That's why - as much as it pains me to be positive about anything in WoW's story - I hope they add Zandalari to the Darkspear, if only so the notion that Trolls are an actual threat or worthwhile ally given their astronomically low numbers isn't so wildly improbable.

Of course, I'd also hope to see the Night elves actually be badass while fighting Horde, and I know that won't come true either.
I did say I wouldn't stop pestering Blizzard till it was done. And if it's one thing I'm good at it is persistence.
It's possible what's left of the Zandalar might join the Darkspear.


Well there's at least a partial giant city of them still out there on a sinking island with a powerful leader just sitting dejectedly on his thrown.
03/21/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Mordstreich
I'm just saying the argument that all Trolls are somehow the most xenophobic thing since sliced bread doesn't make a lick of sense in light of the fact virtually every species on the planet has been making it their personal mission to kill as many as possible.


Who said anything about Trolls being super nice?


Then perhaps you have your reason as to why people are invading them and killing them. Because they do the same thing to everyone else. When your race builds of a reputation of killing people and using their remains (even their spirits) as fodder for rituals and decoration, there's a good bet that claims of "they're evil" have some merit.

It's possible the Humans/Elves/Dwarves migrated to lands already held by Trolls and the Humans/Elves/Dwarves started the conflict, but I don't know that it's ever explicitly stated who started aggressions between the two.

It's also possible the Trolls instantly attacked any strange outsiders they found in their territories.
They don't invade people just out of nowhere, pretty much all of Kamildor was being controlled by the Twin Empires, which fought against the Aquir, the trolls had a rule, respect our lands and we will respect yours. After the separation and defeat of Azjol'Nerub and Ahn'Quiraj some small tribes left the two empires, a tribe of dark trolls who left the Amani found the Well of Eternity, and turned into the Night elfs, who started to grew their territory, the Twin empires tried to stop them from growing into their territories, but the Night elfs, with the power of the Well in their hands they had no problem defeating both empires.

Also, one can't blame a race because of their culture, they are used to do those things because they have been doing them since forever, and they won't change their ways just because some other guys don't like them.

03/21/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Mordstreich
You know how people are always going on about how the Alliance should want to take back Lordaeron and care enough to do something about it? Or how the Night Elves should take back Ashenvale? Well it's the same thing here.


And everyone tells them to get over it and deal with it. So...

And one thing that separates the Night elves from the Trolls is that the Night elves made concessions to their aggressing party and at least attempted diplomacy with the younger races. We don't have any evidence besides the Darkspear and Revantusk (who were the runts of their respective social circles and were constantly bullied by the Witherbark/Gurubashi) attempting diplomacy with the other races with the intent of peace and betterment of not only their peoples but to their allies.
But that doesn't stops the Humans from keep trying to get them back does it? But of course the Humans got their allies fighting with them, the Trolls are pretty much for themselves there.

Also, other thing that makes night elfs different from the trolls is that it was their thirst of power which pretty much messed the entire planet, the trolls just wanted the others to leave their lands alone, but the Night elfs wanted their lands, probably so their own race had more space.

The Darkspear don't have any reason to be political with the Humans, who almost killed them just for the fact of being troll, but yet Vol'jin sent some people to ask for help to the Alliance in 4.1, asking for help to stop the Zandalari.

03/21/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Also I never got the feeling the Wolvar were really mean


They were insanely aggressive to pretty much everyone they came across and killed Gorlocs simply just because.

To add to this, I understand as a Troll fan the treatment of Trolls probably distresses you, even though it's set up in a way that these other Troll tribes are portrayed in such a way as to make them evil and give us adequate reason to stomp them in for being evil bastards. That's why - as much as it pains me to be positive about anything in WoW's story - I hope they add Zandalari to the Darkspear, if only so the notion that Trolls are an actual threat or worthwhile ally given their astronomically low numbers isn't so wildly improbable.

Of course, I'd also hope to see the Night elves actually be badass while fighting Horde, and I know that won't come true either.
I may be wrong, but didn't most of the Wolvar were corrupted somewhere in the past?

I must admit it saddens me that trolls, as Blizz wants to put them, even being a ancient and wise race seem unable to stop attacking others, even when they can help them, imagine what would have happened if the Zandalari, once they got their kind together, fought against the Twilight Hammer, the guys who wanted to destroy their planet, instead of the Alliance and the Horde, I think they should see a priority in avoiding your planet to explode is bigger than trying to take back their lands which would have been destroyed anyway if we didn't kill Deathwing in the beginning, I don't like it when my own race seems unable to see the difference.
03/18/2013 01:59 PMPosted by Kellick
If the Trolls would quit trying to kill/enslave/conquer everyone else maybe we'd all quit trying to kill them.

Maybe if the entire planet would stop killing and conquering Trolls, they'd stop defending themselves.


They don't wanna share land. I think the amani attacked the elves when they came over. The horde were just gonna pass by zul'drak and said that they might open a trade but the drakkari attacked them (But they were kinda crazy because of the god killing and scourge.)

The farraki were hostile from when the land they lived on became a dessert. They had to use blood magic to live. They were drinking blood from themselves so it's safe to say they would do the same to new comers.
03/22/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Jatzulak

Maybe if the entire planet would stop killing and conquering Trolls, they'd stop defending themselves.


They don't wanna share land. I think the amani attacked the elves when they came over. The horde were just gonna pass by zul'drak and said that they might open a trade but the drakkari attacked them (But they were kinda crazy because of the god killing and scourge.)

The farraki were hostile from when the land they lived on became a dessert. They had to use blood magic to live. They were drinking blood from themselves so it's safe to say they would do the same to new comers.


No the Amani are actually the innocents on the Elf/Troll thing. The Elves were basically like. "F you, this is our land now." Pissed off the Amani and yeah.
03/22/2013 12:16 PMPosted by Zulzèn
I must admit it saddens me that trolls, as Blizz wants to put them, even being a ancient and wise race seem unable to stop attacking others, even when they can help them,


Because the vast majority of trolls aren't an "ancient and wise race." They're scum. Bottom-barrel, psychopathic, blood-drinking cannibalistic maniacs that wear necklaces of ears and teeth, can barely talk, and murder each other at the drop of a hat. They're trolls, ffs. They're big, reeking, violent savages.

The Amani and Gurubashi trolls squat in ancient ruins with barely anything left but crumbling walls, throwing together wooden huts in their midst because they've forgotten how their ancestors built them. The Drakkari are barely any better; they didn't fall as hard but their empire was basically in stasis for thousands of years, and when the Scourge came and pushed their !@#$ in they fell apart wheras other races that had actually developed over their history were able to fight back.

The only group of trolls out of the whole bunch that might be called "wise" were the Zandalari, but even they're a joke compared to what they used to be - both the night elves and the nascent Pandaren Empire soundly kicked their asses, and that was even before the Sundering.

Troll society peaked around the time of the war with the Aqir. Even before the kaldorei showed up they'd split off the Amani and Gurubashi, and they've just been on a downward slope ever since because they can't get their %^-* together.

Also, one can't blame a race because of their culture, they are used to do those things because they have been doing them since forever, and they won't change their ways just because some other guys don't like them.


Trolls as a whole can be taken as a lesson on what happens when a race/society can't grow and change - it stagnates, starts to split apart, and sooner or later it gets punched in the face by someone else who can grow and learn. That's basically all of troll history from the Aqir on - trolls punching each other in the face and only stopping occasionally so they can let someone else punch them in the face.

That was the difference between the Darkspear Tribe and everyone else. The Darkspears realized that forming bonds with other races and giving up some of their more savage aspects (cannibalism and blood sacrifices) were the best bet for survival. Other trolls just keep on hating everybody else and flinging tantrums everywhere, and so they keep on sliding into the gutter.
The Drakkari are barely any better; they didn't fall as hard but their empire was basically in stasis for thousands of years, and when the Scourge came and pushed their !@#$ in they fell apart wheras other races that had actually developed over their history were able to fight back.

You realize that despite throwing three necropoli and having an inside man sabotage the Drakkari's defenses, the Scourge were still stuck at the first tier of Zul'Drak?

The Drakkari, the weakest and least advanced Troll empire, put the Alliance and Horde to shame.

Trolls as a whole can be taken as a lesson on what happens when a race/society can't grow and change - it stagnates, starts to split apart, and sooner or later it gets punched in the face by someone else who can grow and learn. That's basically all of troll history from the Aqir on - trolls punching each other in the face and only stopping occasionally so they can let someone else punch them in the face.

There is no history of Trolls punching each other in the face. Even back during the Twin Empires, they canonically very rarely warred.

It took the magical equivalent of an infinite cache of nuclear weapons, followed by thousands of years of every race on the planet ganging up on the Trolls without pause, natural and ecological disasters, zombie apocalypse, followed by the planet blowing up the seat of Troll civilization, to bring the Trolls to the point they are now.

And they're still treated as a credible threat to the established superpowers of the Alliance and Horde.
You realize that despite throwing three necropoli and having an inside man sabotage the Drakkari's defenses, the Scourge were still stuck at the first tier of Zul'Drak?

The Drakkari, the weakest and least advanced Troll empire, put the Alliance and Horde to shame.


No they weren't, go back and play Zul'drak again. The only thing that stymied them was the arrival of the Ebon Blade (to sabotage Drakuru's plot) and the Argent Crusade (who killed the leaders of the other two necropoli, Prince Naverius and Malas the Corrupter).

They were still well into the process of making the Drakkari their girlfriend until the new factions showed up. Go look at Drak'tharon Keep - even before we inadvertantly help Drakuru ascend to deathknighthood the Scourge are overrunning the place - two of the bosses are Scourge and there's Scourge fighting even at the highest tiers. Meanwhile the rest of the empire was falling apart. Sseratus, Rhunok, Quetz'lun and Mam'toth were all dead, with the last of them blowing himself up as a screw-you to the trolls. The only loa they still had were Akali and Har'koa.

The Drakkari shot their wad and all it did was slow the Scourge down.

There is no history of Trolls punching each other in the face. Even back during the Twin Empires, they canonically very rarely warred.


The Zandalari crushed the Gurubashi empire when they fell into Hakkar-worship. Then they came back to do it again in vanilla. The Bloodscalp and Skullsplitters carried on a generations-long conflict. The Darkspear got hunted and kicked out of Stranglethorn entirely. The Revantusk were at war with their neighboring trolls even in vanilla and it's still going on in Cata-era. This artsy-fartsy "oh trolls never fight they are happy and want to be left alone and live in ****peace****" is bull. Trolls hate each other and tear each others' scalps off at the drop of a hat.

Maybe once upon a time they were less psychotic, but as I said, troll society hit its peak while they were fighting the Aqir. They were falling apart even before the Pandaren and night elves schooled them.
You realize that despite throwing three necropoli and having an inside man sabotage the Drakkari's defenses, the Scourge were still stuck at the first tier of Zul'Drak?

The Drakkari, the weakest and least advanced Troll empire, put the Alliance and Horde to shame.


No they weren't, go back and play Zul'drak again. The only thing that stymied them was the arrival of the Ebon Blade (to sabotage Drakuru's plot) and the Argent Crusade (who killed the leaders of the other two necropoli, Prince Naverius and Malas the Corrupter).

They were still well into the process of making the Drakkari their girlfriend until the new factions showed up. Go look at Drak'tharon Keep - even before we inadvertantly help Drakuru ascend to deathknighthood the Scourge are overrunning the place - two of the bosses are Scourge and there's Scourge fighting even at the highest tiers. Meanwhile the rest of the empire was falling apart. Sseratus, Rhunok, Quetz'lun and Mam'toth were all dead, with the last of them blowing himself up as a screw-you to the trolls. The only loa they still had were Akali and Har'koa.

The Drakkari shot their wad and all it did was slow the Scourge down.

There is no history of Trolls punching each other in the face. Even back during the Twin Empires, they canonically very rarely warred.


The Zandalari crushed the Gurubashi empire when they fell into Hakkar-worship. Then they came back to do it again in vanilla. The Bloodscalp and Skullsplitters carried on a generations-long conflict. The Darkspear got hunted and kicked out of Stranglethorn entirely. The Revantusk were at war with their neighboring trolls even in vanilla and it's still going on in Cata-era. This artsy-fartsy "oh trolls never fight they are happy and want to be left alone and live in ****peace****" is bull. Trolls hate each other and tear each others' scalps off at the drop of a hat.

Maybe once upon a time they were less psychotic, but as I said, troll society hit its peak while they were fighting the Aqir. They were falling apart even before the Pandaren and night elves schooled them.


Alright hotshot, the Trolls have proven to be savages but the Alliance and Horde weren't making it any better. Drakkari, Gurubashi, and Amani were all like "Go away and leave us alone." But the Alliance and Horde were like "Nah, we want this land." They go to war because they are used to a hostile world. Zandalari doesn't even make sense because after the Alliance and Horde tore the Gurubashi a new one, they must've known what they were capable of and going war on them isn't a wise idea when going up against 2 factions that may face challenges but ultimately come out stronger after each battle. Zandalari deserved better. Dark Trolls deserved better, hence why most of us will not accept that Twilight's Hammer driving them extinct as canon. The Horde has extended it's hand to the Troll's and in the Isle of Thunder all the elves except Halduron Brightwing who sees that they are practically committing genocide on the Zandalari and the rest are like "Oh look at those savages and their savage practices" when they turn around and do nothing better. Yeah, I don't like elves. Lor'themar Theron and Halduron Brightwing are cool but the rest are hypocrites.
Alright hotshot, the Trolls have proven to be savages but the Alliance and Horde weren't making it any better. Drakkari, Gurubashi, and Amani were all like "Go away and leave us alone." But the Alliance and Horde were like "Nah, we want this land." They go to war because they are used to a hostile world. Zandalari doesn't even make sense because after the Alliance and Horde tore the Gurubashi a new one, they must've known what they were capable of and going war on them isn't a wise idea when going up against 2 factions that may face challenges but ultimately come out stronger after each battle.


Because trolls are dumb, violent savages that don't learn.

That's the point. That's what I keep saying. Trolls peaked during the time of the Aqir and since then they've been getting kicked about because all they do is throw tantrums and huddle in ancient ruins most of them barely comprehend anymore. Sometimes they whine at each other, sometimes at other races.

That's the difference between the Darkspear (and to be fair, the Revantusk) and the rest of their kind - they're more reasonable. They learn. They discard the baggage their kind has been clinging onto for thousands of years. That's why they're thriving while the rest of the troll race continues to batter itself bloody against the brick wall of inevitability.

Zandalari deserved better. Dark Trolls deserved better, hence why most of us will not accept that Twilight's Hammer driving them extinct as canon. The Horde has extended it's hand to the Troll's and in the Isle of Thunder all the elves except Halduron Brightwing who sees that they are practically committing genocide on the Zandalari and the rest are like "Oh look at those savages and their savage practices" when they turn around and do nothing better. Yeah, I don't like elves. Lor'themar Theron and Halduron Brightwing are cool but the rest are hypocrites.


I don't disagree that the story has taken some bottom-barrel turns, especially since Cataclysm. But the nature of trolls as violent savages hasn't changed. They've always been that way.

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