dont vote kick ret healers....

Paladin
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Or you could actually go heals and not waste our time.

Playing battle healer IS going heals. Some of you seem to think that we're talking about checking the healer box and then just playing as a DPS, plus a few pity heals here and there. That's not a healer, that's just a DPS trying to cheat the queue system. This is not what it means when we talk about Ret-healing in dungeons.

When you're Ret-healing dungeons, you are playing as a healer. Your priority is healing people. The thing you pay the most attention to is healing people. You just also happen to be doing sixty thousand DPS at the same time.

Personally, I generally don't queue into randoms as a Ret healer, because as mentioned, there is less room for error than with a dedicated healer spec. And random groups are frequently ALL ABOUT error. But with a decent group, and especially with a couple friends, it works beautifully.
I imagine that all heroic 5 man instances are pretty easy to most of the ones here advocating this style of play. Having a 495+ iLVL would drastically change my outlook on all of these instances. It would be nice if everyone it the team were geared thusly. Instances would in fact be less than 8 minutes.

This is not the case though in most random PUGs. Maybe I am an oddball for wanting everyone in the team to be successful and I try hard to make sure that nobody dies. Sure I want it done quickly, but I take pride when an instance is done without any deaths. Yes, I will even throw a LoH’s at the hunter on autofirre, eating a sandwich while standing in the fire.
Role =/= Spec is basically the argument.

Take a look at the old Shockadin arguments. They were Holy's capable of DPS roles in theory. People are still constantly trying to build them, or some hodgepodge like them.

When I do dailies, I don't do dailies as a "healer." I do them as a one man band, and my real focus is on damage dealing, with enough self heals to keep me standing, regardless of what spec I'm in.

If a Ret is geared well enough (or out geared well enough) to heal or tank in a 5 man, and has the consent of his group, I'm all for it. The problem is that people are /votekick happy. "I don't agree with the way you're playing your toon, so I'm /votekick you out of the dungeon, before you have a chance to prove it's a viable style." Now don't get me wrong, if a Ret queues as Tank/Heals and can't keep up, boot him in a heartbeat, "for abusing the queue system" or "being an idiot" but at least see if he can fill the role.

Like if I wanted to go through a 5 man as a DPS (in my holy gear) so that I can get Ret gear, would I be booted? I'm going to outperform my Ret spec in this gear by FAR.
There are lots of benefits to having a ret healer that can do his job.

1) If the ret healer does his job it probably means hes doing a ton of damage. (Ret healing comes from more damage done)
2) Burst heals are insane. ( I regularly hit 250k crits with flash of light and selfless healer. Since judgement is high priority with 4 pc bonus, I have a lot of selfless healer procs)
3) 4 dps as well as insane dps ret heals make runs fast and fun.
4) A ret paladin that heals effectively is probably good at other things too like interrupting and using all utility since ret healing hints upon class knowledge.

As ret healer my total dps in dungeons is about 82k on average my hps is about 25k-30k on average. Holy prism takes care of any burst AoE that a boss dishes and Flash of Light/Selfless Healer procs handle the rest. Dispels are taken care of largely by hand of sacrifice. Devotion Aura takes care of lots of magic aoe dmg. If anything is left that those abilities didn't take care of (usually all you need) battle healer does a TON of passive healing not even including the ultimate oh !@#$ of Lay on Hands. Ret heals got the tools to get the job done and more. Don't be a bad and kick someone for no reason.
Or you could actually go heals and not waste our time.


Or I could go Ret heals and cut your time in half... you know, whatever.
As soon as I saw 60K mana, I'd kick.
And I thought paladins couldn't be any more embarrassing. Throw another log on the fire.
03/20/2013 02:49 PMPosted by Vlada
Or you could actually go heals and not waste our time.


Or I could go Ret heals and cut your time in half... you know, whatever.


A 5 man hero 1 tank, 1 heals, 3 dps, take's 10-15min. Am not risking a wipe and a repair bill to shave of 3 min.

As soon as I saw 60K mana, I'd kick.


Same.
Generally, Lobster, I agree with you on most issues. This is one where we'll differ. I acknowledge that a strong Ret can make a five-man go much faster than using a dedicated healer, but you can't know that going in. I've seen too many failboat Elemental Shamans, Shadow Priests, Balance Druids, et cetera to just want to take a chance.

Looking for Dungeon isn't about the best and brightest generally. You're dealing with lowest common denominator, and while I will sit there patiently coddling a first-timer tank through the mechanics of the dungeon or toss a quick "Healer, dispel that debuff!" to ensure future dungeons with said people run smoothly, I accept those as conditions of my laziness in not finding a dedicated group.

Wiping two or three times with a non-dedicated healer to enjoy the discovery that he is NOT a competent Ret? Nah. LFD eats enough of my patience helping the people I'm supposed to be helping. Let people who want to experiment with out of spec roles do so with four of their buddies, because I'm only going to assume that the DPS is trying to cheat the queue time otherwise.
As I'm Prot for 5-man dungeons, I wouldn't mind that. 3 solid DPS + ret healer would make for a quick run for sure.
As soon as I saw 60K mana, I'd kick.


I don't even look at the people in 5-mans anymore. Even when I didn't have gear, all I really looked for was that five people did actually zone in. These days I just go, and am often on the second pull when people catch up. Sometimes people leave and I am not stopping. Not for anything. I've pulled second bosses when healers bail after the first, and have done almost the entirety of Scarlet Halls with just me and three dps.

Before I had gear, I never felt threatened in 5-mans.

Hell about three months ago, when LFR had barely opened, there was a guy who organized what was essentially a full-ret MSV LFR. They have no healer at all, it's all battle healer and light's hammer. There's videos of it, and the threads shouldn't be hard to find.
This was actually a thing in Warhammer Online as well. Warrior Priests and Disciples of Khaine had lifetap heals with good conversion rates that let them gear for full DPS and keep a tank at full health easily. It actually worked really well and was highly sought after because if you played for the spec it made dungeon runs a cake walk because enrage timers never became an issue.
The only time I have EVER had ANYONE die when I was ret healing was win they stood in floor AoE. Never lost one tank, not even when he pulls every mob in Scarlet Graveyard or whatever that place is right after the 1st skeleton boss with the 30+ mobs. Ret healing is cake and a tank that kicks one probably fails at their own survivability so much that they need a dedicated/specced healer to feel safe in spite of their own inadequacies. I'd venture to say in full heroic dungeon prot gear tanking I could solo 90% of any instance without a healer at all.

EDIT rets can heal with 0 mana.
The Healer role heals the group and keeps them alive.

A Ret who heals the group and keeps them alive is a healer. Problem?
At least they got rid of that luck of the draw buff. It was completely unnecessary with the mop style of heroics (which just means level 90 versions of 5 mans, not more difficult). These dungeons are already tuned to be very easy, it was just silly when everyone had 15% more health, damage, and healing on top of it all.
The Healer role heals the group and keeps them alive.

A Ret who heals the group and keeps them alive is a healer. Problem?


I'd like to introduce you to my friend Dual Spec.
The Healer role heals the group and keeps them alive.

A Ret who heals the group and keeps them alive is a healer. Problem?


I'd like to introduce you to my friend Dual Spec.


How does that negate the advantages of having a properly played ret healer?
You'd think people were pushing for SHOCKADIN 4th spec with the knee jerk reactions from some of these one dimensional paladins.

I'm more disappointed in you, than you could ever be in us.
How does that negate the advantages of having a properly played ret healer?


Is that a serious question?

Let's look past the peripheral issues of a Ret not having the capacity to dispel party-wiping magic effects, the contemptible queue-avoidance for DPS, the reality that Rets advertising this level of healing means you're insuring mass heal-nerfs coming our way AND introducing another DPS rolling on DPS gear in lieu of healer...

You can be Holy. There's really no need to do it in DPS other than you have the capacity (in some degree or another) to attempt it. This whole argument is reminiscent of the Shockadin issue where people were complaining that they would get booted from groups when they tried and suboptimally ran their healer spec as DPS. If you want to play around with the class as is not intended, run private groups. Otherwise, you've no one to blame but yourself when you're summarily dismissed at the beginning of a dungeon for your hubris.

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