Heroic 10M Council

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Oh hey bud, nice "4 day a week" guild you got there. How was that 6 days the first week to clear normal modes? I sure do love my sweeping generalizations that you helped me prove. Sit down and get a juice box kid.

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/draenor/Hyperion
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/78926/

This just in: Guilds add raiding nights during progression, especially when it's to clear normals to activate heroics


This just in: guilds add raid days in order to boost their epeen rank on wowprogress. This just in, higher rankings doesn't mean you're a better guild. Don't be mad just cause your guild couldn't handle normal modes in less than 5 days. Once again another bad guild proving the point: higher rankings USUALLY means more days and/or hours.
On 10man, Frostbite isn't the most difficult mechanic either, it is just the overall amount of damage going out by all phases compared with the dps required to push into the next one right at the time needed. For a 3rd boss in the instance, it feels like it is tuned too high.

Yes, EU guilds have downed it. 4 of them. This will most likely be a come back next week after we are more geared encounter and the race may last for a couple weeks.


It's the hardest in the first six on 25 man too, so I dunno. It might be really overtuned on 10 man or it might not, but kill rates look about the same at this stage to a lot of last tier to me. Of the first 20 guilds to kill Sha, 18 were 25 man. For Shek'zeer it was also 18 of the first 20 on 25 man, and for Will it was 15 of the first 20. For council, 15 of the first 20 kills were on 25 man, and presently it's 16 out of 23.

If the evidence is kill rates, why do those kill rates look too low on 10 man for you? That seems about the standard rate for 10 vs 25 man kills among the top guilds, and the kill rate for 25 mans is low too. Only three US 25 man guilds have killed council and there's 21 Horridon kills, and if you talk to any of the guilds that are stuck on Council right now they'll tell you how hard it is.
pretty sure no 25 man guild has killed it that did not farm 25 man normals at least 3+ times last week. It is a huge gear check on 25 man too.

just check on wowprogress, which now records ilvl of the kill group, every 25 man that has killed it had a min ilvl of 517+, with the top guilds killing it at 520 ilvl.

Paragon and Moonz killed it on 10 man with an ilvl of 517+ as well.

It is just a huge dps check, and if you 10 man guilds did not farm 3-6 normal mode clears last week, then don't expect to kill it as fast as the 25 man guilds that did.

With some more gear, you can kill Sul before first or second sandstorm, and it makes the fight much much easier.

Just for reference, my guild is not going to kill this boss this week, we don't have the gear for it.
higher rankings USUALLY means more days and/or hours.

Who ever disagreed with that?
You have some sort of weird complex going on O.o
Just want to bump this thread to say how 10 mans are undertuned because Paragon is #1 now.
Just want to bump this thread to say how 10 mans are undertuned because Paragon is #1 now.


I think it's more of a testament to the player skill of paragon members. as far as I know, they didnt farm 25 normal multiple times on alts.

these guys are good. they would be #1 on either format.
Just want to bump this thread to say how 10 mans are undertuned because Paragon is #1 now.


Where is that idiot who was saying they aren't the best guild in the world?
03/17/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Aeliel
Just want to bump this thread to say how 10 mans are undertuned because Paragon is #1 now.


I think it's more of a testament to the player skill of paragon members. as far as I know, they didnt farm 25 normal multiple times on alts.

these guys are good. they would be #1 on either format.


They most certainly would not be #1 25 man. If they could, they would still play 25 man. They WERE the #1 25 man guild, but their guild has changed a lot.
these guys are good. they would be #1 on either format.


they said themselves they couldn't maintain a 25 man roster worthy of #1 in the world.
Do they still only accept Finnish-speaking players? It seems like that would significantly limit their potential recruitment pool.
Do they still only accept Finnish-speaking players? It seems like that would significantly limit their potential recruitment pool.


Shhh... Don't ruin the special snowflake !@#$%^-*!@.
pretty sure no 25 man guild has killed it that did not farm 25 man normals at least 3+ times last week. It is a huge gear check on 25 man too.

just check on wowprogress, which now records ilvl of the kill group, every 25 man that has killed it had a min ilvl of 517+, with the top guilds killing it at 520 ilvl.

Paragon and Moonz killed it on 10 man with an ilvl of 517+ as well.

It is just a huge dps check, and if you 10 man guilds did not farm 3-6 normal mode clears last week, then don't expect to kill it as fast as the 25 man guilds that did.

With some more gear, you can kill Sul before first or second sandstorm, and it makes the fight much much easier.

Just for reference, my guild is not going to kill this boss this week, we don't have the gear for it.


the only smart post in this thread
9 hours, and thats with multiple raids feeding the mains gear

good lord. :x


Do you think 10mans should be exempt from running multiple raids to feed their mains gear when 25mans are not?

BL is good, but not paragon/method good.


BL got the world first heroic empress (even accounting for their head start), and were been competitive on both the other end bosses last tier. They actually are that good.

TBH it's pretty annoying when a few of these decent 10mans immediately jump to the forums the moment something slows them down. It happened with garajal too for example, when alot of 25mans were stuck on that fight too because it's legitimately hard in the gear you had first week without world top 5 level prep, but people still came up with crazy (incorrect) arguments about add hp, add spawn rate etc. Guess what, the reason you're in the top 10 for 10mans is because 10man is not as competitive, almost all the super serious raiding guilds are still 25man because... they were 25man before 10man became legit! Heyoooooo! Paragon is the only top end 25man guild that has broken down into 10man and they have absolutely dominated the 10man scene for a reason. Paragon never complain that something is too hard, they just settle down and work hard to get it done, just like all the top 25man guilds. Stop scapegoating your inadequacies upon the format you chose.
I think it's more of a testament to the player skill of paragon members. as far as I know, they didnt farm 25 normal multiple times on alts.


Ermm, yes they did. For T14, they said they ran some 25 mans with old/retired raiders and friends to funnel gear. Why would you expect that to change in T15, which is even more competitive?

(Source: http://www.paragon.fi/articles/mists-pandaria-qa-answers)

Anyways, 10+ EU guilds have now killed Council. Any more responses from the top US 10 mans?
There will be US kills next week, it isn't as if we can go back now and kill it. lol
03/18/2013 04:30 AMPosted by Kolzi
Guess what, the reason you're in the top 10 for 10mans is because 10man is not as competitive, almost all the super serious raiding guilds are still 25man because... they were 25man before 10man became legit! Heyoooooo! Paragon is the only top end 25man guild that has broken down into 10man and they have absolutely dominated the 10man scene for a reason.


can we just drop this stereotype about 10 being easier? how many sinestra 10 kills did we see relative to 25? can 10's class stack to trivialize mechanics (ie: heroic will, with gorefiends+ring of frost)?

some fights are easier on 25, some are easier on 10. lets leave it at that.
Sinestra 10 was a gimmick fight, aka dispel issues. They could have made the dot spread faster in 25 man and it woudl have been "fair".

Heroic Will was broken. And after they fixed it... it was way easier on 10 man than 25 man.

The second half of ToT is almost all /range10 or /range8. I can't begin to describe how brutal spacing is in 25 man versus 10 man when /rangeX gets to be that big. And how far from the boss/stackpoint you can end up due to it, especially when you have to run in.

If they normalized the amount of space the raid took up a little bit, you might see less 25 is harder qq.
I agree, 25 is exponentially harder on movement/spacing fights. I do both formats and the difference is quite notable. on 10 you have a football field of space, relatively.

I think 10 has a harder time if a fight encourages stacking raid cooldowns, or if individuals can be assigned to specific tasks (like interrupts on sul, or whatever). but 25 has a harder time with coordination/avoiding stuff, which makes things more difficult due to limited space.

10 is probably more demanding on individuals, but 25 demands more of the raid itself, kinda. as for fight difficulty, it varies. (like you said, on /range fights, 25 has a harder time spreading out).
Sinestra 10 was a gimmick fight, aka dispel issues. They could have made the dot spread faster in 25 man and it woudl have been "fair".

Heroic Will was broken. And after they fixed it... it was way easier on 10 man than 25 man.

The second half of ToT is almost all /range10 or /range8. I can't begin to describe how brutal spacing is in 25 man versus 10 man when /rangeX gets to be that big. And how far from the boss/stackpoint you can end up due to it, especially when you have to run in.

If they normalized the amount of space the raid took up a little bit, you might see less 25 is harder qq.


Wrack was not the reason sinestra was hard on 10 man. You couldn't just ignore mechanics by chaining 3-4 armies of the undead for the last two sets of whelps or have a raid cd for every breath. That fight was so brutal for healers we made it mandatory for everyone in our guild to have the tb trinket so we could have another raid cd.
can we just drop this stereotype about 10 being easier? how many sinestra 10 kills did we see relative to 25? can 10's class stack to trivialize mechanics (ie: heroic will, with gorefiends+ring of frost)?

Kolzi wasn't making a statement on the relative difficulty of 10 vs. 25 he was making a statement about the guilds raiding each format at the top end. Outside of paragon there are very few, if any 10 man guilds raiding at the time commitment level of Method/BL. For good or ill most of the crazy hardcore 18 hour a day guilds are 25 man, it isn't a commentary on relative difficulty of either format.

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