Is Mr. Robot right? [Prot]

Paladin
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Here is one of them just fyi.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Treckie/simple


Great, now go to this Prot's realm and ask him if he uses AMR.

All you did was prove angry dorf's point. The Prot you linked is doing Heroics and actually has reason to gear the way he does. Not only that, but he HAS the gear to gem the way he does. Honestly, there was no reason for you to even link that armory. If someone in LFR/normal gear follows what the 2% are doing... they're wrong. No matter who's armory you link, they are doing themselves a disservice. Not to mention, copying someone's armory without understanding basic things is stupid as hell to begin with. Taking less damage is more important, as a whole, than having more hit points. Period. InB4 hyperbole!

For those who do not do heroics, the gear you acquire has enough base stamina on it. If you are having problems, it's a player issue and/or a team issue.

Again, what people have been talking about here are the average, uneducated players using AMR and being given !@#$ty default advice. Can you blame them for ignorance? Yes, but that hardly takes any blame off the tool for being counter-intuitive. People who know about stat weights are most likely skipping AMR all together. ReforgeLite is what AMR could ever hope to be.

03/14/2013 09:04 AMPosted by Wrathblood
I really don't know what drives the strongest anti-AMR haters.


Maybe you should, well you know, read the posts in the thread. They aren't shy at all about why. So your assumptions are just that: assumptions.

If you're going to make a site like AMR, you have to build it to be easily used by people that have no idea what they are doing. Design it for 3 years olds, and you can't go wrong.... I'd skip the crayon colors and shapes though.
Simcraft can easly be used incorrectly and to make false generalizations, does that mean it's a bad tool?

Reforger can be used incorrectly, does that make it a bad tool?

Programming languages can be used to create malware, does that make them bad tools?

Just because someone doesn't know how to use a tool, doesn't make it a bad tool.

The problem lies in the people using the tool, not the tool itself (not counting bugs that EVERY piece of software ever created has). If we are going to start blaming tools for their misuse by people, we have eliminated people from the equation.

I mean, what does it say about World of Warcraft? WoW must be a failure of a game if so many people using it can't even figure out how to gear their characters. Clearly we should all blame the game for this.

I realize the current hipster trend is to not ever take responsibility for oneself, and instead lay blame to everything else. The gun made me shoot him. The Big Mac made me get fat. It's not my fault I got pregnant due to a choice I made. It's not my fault I wrecked when I was drunk. It's not my fault I broke out my kitchen window trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer, it was the tools fault.

You simply can't create a meaningful tool if you design it for the lowest common denominator. This is why we have things like the new SimCity abomination. They dumbed the game down so much that it's nothing like what it used to be. It lost all of its "oomph".
03/14/2013 04:03 PMPosted by Vlada
All you did was prove angry dorf's point. The Prot you linked is doing Heroics and actually has reason to gear the way he does. Not only that, but he HAS the gear to gem the way he does. Honestly, there was no reason for you to even link that armory. If someone in LFR/normal gear follows what the 2% are doing... they're wrong. No matter who's armory you link, they are doing themselves a disservice. Not to mention, copying someone's armory without understanding basic things is stupid as hell to begin with.


I am sorry but he was just an example. If i may this conversation isn't only for the people that running lfr right? OFC gear has enough stamina for it as blue heroics have enough for ermm... random heroics? You can tank lfr by gemming full agility / spirit / intellect with for what it counts.

What i am trying to say here, is that stamina isn't as bad of a stat as some in thread want it to be for normals or heroics. And that hyperbola is there for a reason.
As i said in my last paragraph it greatly depends on your raid and the nature of the encounter.

I am also very displeased with the personal attacks against that person / service. AMR is a tool and even though i personally don't use it for anything, i am glad it exists since it provides the wow community a service. (of somekind) to at least some. I really don't get all the nerd-raging in here.

And in before the QQing a strictly casual player that randomly logs in and runs a couple of lfr / week will not get hurt by geming stamina. If it was suggested to him to gem intellect then it would be a different issue.


Taking less damage is more important, as a whole, than having more hit points. Period. InB4 hyperbole!


I thought getting more hit points enabled you to do exactly that (on a constant basis at least).

Taking less damage is more important, as a whole, than having more hit points. Period. InB4 hyperbole!


I thought getting more hit points enabled you to do exactly that (on a constant basis at least).


A larger health pool does not mean that you take less damage; it means that you are capable of taking more hits. There is a difference between those two concepts.
A larger health pool does not mean that you take less damage; it means that you are capable of taking more hits. There is a difference between those two concepts.


I went full retard there /apologies. I thought he meant actual hit (like to 7.5%)
Taking less total damage is less meaningful than taking less spike damage. It's why we CTC capped as paladins in Cataclysm, despite avoidance being superior for total damage reduction. Once CTC capped in cata, there was not a consensus on whether you should stack stamina or go with avoidance, because it just depended on too many variables.

Taking less total damage doesn't matter if your healers have a hard time dealing with spike damage and are wasting mana on less efficient heals. Not every raid group is the same, not every tank is the same, not every healer is the same. Stamina is a subjective stat. Whether someone says to always stack stam or never stack stam, it's a good sign they aren't really understanding how oversimplified those statements are.
Taking less total damage is less meaningful than taking less spike damage. It's why we CTC capped as paladins in Cataclysm, despite avoidance being superior for total damage reduction. Once CTC capped in cata, there was not a consensus on whether you should stack stamina or go with avoidance, because it just depended on too many variables.

Taking less total damage doesn't matter if your healers have a hard time dealing with spike damage and are wasting mana on less efficient heals. Not every raid group is the same, not every tank is the same, not every healer is the same. Stamina is a subjective stat. Whether someone says to always stack stam or never stack stam, it's a good sign they aren't really understanding how oversimplified those statements are.


This.

Damage taken, within a reasonable range, is meaningless. The best strategy for minimizing overall damage taken right now is stack pure Avoidance and dump everything else, including Hit and Exp. You know what our worst stat for damage prevention has been since the launch of MoP (among the actual tanking stats, I mean)? Haste. Yet that's what everyone stacked prior to 5.2 and what some people still stack now. Damage prevention is not the goal.

What kills tanks is spike damage. The very best stats for dealing with spike damage are Hit and Exp up to their respective caps. After that, it depends on what you mean by "spike" damage because different stats are good at different things. There are different size or intensities of spike damage and there are different periods of time over which you can get spiked. Do you mean getting hit hard 3 swings in a row over 5 seconds? But what about getting hit moderately hard 7 times in a row over 10 seconds, that'd be threatening too, right? What about 4 swings? 2 swings?

Depending on how you define "spike" different stats do well. Control-Haste is great at knocking out the very worst spikes, but suffers small and medium intensity spikes far more often than other gearing styles. Avoidance, somewhat counter-intuitively, does great at eliminating smaller spikes but not as well against bigger spikes. Control-Mastery broadly does well against spikes, though not as well as Control-Haste against big ones or Avoidance against smaller ones.

There is, however, one other stat that helps against spikes of all sizes, making them hit for a smaller % of the tank's health pool, making it kind of the universal defensive stat. That stat is, obviously, Stamina. If you are concerned about tank death due to spikes, and don't have a perspective on gearing strategy, stacking Stam (after capping Hit/Exp) is a good all-around way of addressing the issue.

If you think the default AMR settings lean too hard into Stam, then explain why in terms of how AMR works. If you think it should be using hybrid (Stam/X) gems to get socket bonuses instead of pure Stam then say that and explain what you need to do to shift its decision making (I suspect lowering STAM to 1.3 or so would do it).

Expecting AMR to build a complete tutorial on understanding tanking itemization into its interface seems like its asking a little much. Opening up Excel doesn't prompt a tutorial on a wide range of math topics, plus it would be kind of annoying for the people who do know what they're doing.
Apparently I've been misunderstanding how to forge and gem!

I always used AMR, but I'd very much like to know what you guys would recommend for a 10n tank.

I've started reaching out to educate myself better, this is one of my first steps :)
Who is Theck and why do we care? Google told me he plays a paladin and has a blog. I can go make a blog in 2 minutes. Paying domain names is hard.


I'm sorry. I giggled.
Who is Theck and why do we care? Google told me he plays a paladin and has a blog. I can go make a blog in 2 minutes. Paying domain names is hard.


I can only assume this is a bad attempt to troll people. Theck has been a solid contributor to the Prot Paladin theorycrafting community for quite a while now. I found out about his efforts through Maintankadin.com where he consistently analyzed the class and provided well grounded information for stat and gear choices.

He does some mind-boggling statistical analysis to arrive at this conclusions and you would do well to be informed by those analyses. Like this post: http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/02/damage-smoothing-expertise-mastery-and-haste/ His contributions have also garnered the attention of the Dev team, so much so that he had an item (by his own words badly itemized, at the time) added to the game Theck's Emberseal

I will also echo the other statements made about stamina. You have to evaluate your individual raid and survivability then take that information in conjunction with AMR and its stat weight utility along with Maintankadin, EJB, etc. and formulate the appropriate gemming, enchant, and gear strategy.
I'm a little shocked at the hate for AMR. Its a friggin tool, people, and the people who run it have been great about reaching out to some very smart people to continually refine it. I agree that it wasn't so great back in Cata, but they've improved it considerably since then.

I really don't know what drives the strongest anti-AMR haters. Taking a wild stab, I'd guess they are either generally anti-authority (and think that bashing AMR is somehow "sticking it to the man") or are just trying to be hipsters who are too cool for it. Its like being enraged at a slide-rule or something. What did the slide-rule ever do to you?

Its fine if people don't use it or don't like it, but the reasons people have given for not liking it have suggested they totally misunderstand what its there for. If people complained that setting the stat-weights was complicated or the interface was hard to figure out, then fine. Those would be valid complaints.

Complaining that the stat-weights for particular default settings are wrong is dumb. First, as others have noted, AMR gets some pretty sharp folks to put together their default stats. For paladin tanks, there is literally no one with more credibility for paladin tanking than Theck, and he's the one who did their paladin tanking stat weights. So, you can disagree that their settings might not work for you, given your situation. But to argue that their settings are simply *wrong*, you need to explain *why* you think they're wrong and I haven't seen anyone do that yet. Theck's been wrong before, he's not infalliable, but he's right a lot more often than he's wrong so you'd better come with a strong argument.

Second, if you don't like the default settings, you can *CHANGE* them to ones you like better. But even that's not, say, Ussil's complaint. His complaint is that, not only are the settings wrong, AMR is failing to prevent people who have no idea what they're doing from using settings that he thinks are wrong for them. Setting aside whether he's even correct (I don't think he is), that's like watching my kindergarten-age daughter try to use my calculator to answer a multiplication question and being wrong at the calculator for giving her the wrong answer. Its not the caluculator's fault she doesn't know how to multiply. How's it supposed to know she's 6? Is it supposed to somehow know she doesn't know how to multiply and teach her?

The funny thing is that I don't even really use AMR myself (I don't use a tool for reforging or picking gemming or enchants at all. Maybe I'm weird, but I enjoy sitting in front of the reforge vendor, working it out in my head. Which isn't so great if I'm in a hurry like I was last night, but its still how I prefer to do it), but I have no beef against it and the general tone of this thread kinda pissed me off.


Quoting this entire post because I'm in complete and total agreement with you here from start to finish, Wrathblood, and if anyone made it to the end of the thread without reading your post, I want them to read it now. You have nailed my opinion on this better than I could put it myself.
It is really interesting listening to people complain about AMR. AMR does the math based on advanced calculations. And no, even the top players cant all do the math that Theck provided; some can but not even close to all. And while this is a straw man argument, if you don't recognize the genius behind ARM and proper math, YOU are doing it wrong. I guarantee you if you Mat lab even the above average player's reforge/gemming they would take more spike damage than using a default AMR setting. I doubt many of the complainers in this thread spent the time it takes to do the calculations to optimize. ARM is a powerful tool in the hands of someone who wants to min/max but I would argue that it is even more powerful for players who are not going to do the long math calculations to do it right. Thumb to the wind is about as plum as a horse crapping a perfect sphere turd.
Who is Theck and why do we care? Google told me he plays a paladin and has a blog. I can go make a blog in 2 minutes. Paying domain names is hard.


Yeah, that Theck guy is a hack. You shouldn't trust him.
Theck stop logging in ret gear. :P
But dailies are a PITA to do as prot!
More seriously: I don't usually wade into the official forums, because the signal-to-noise ratio is pretty awful around here, and this thread is no exception. That said, there's some particularly pervasive and inaccurate noise being repeated here, so let's stamp that out.

1. You will never need more stam than what comes on gear. You are not doing heroics this week. It is silly to have such a high default weight for stam. It is silly to gem solid cuts.

I completely disagree, for several reasons. The first is that you don't have the proper perspective to make that statement. Looking at your armory, you've cleared a few heroic bosses in 5.0/5.1 content, and cleared all of the normal modes numerous times. That means you are going into Throne of Thunder with above-average gear for the first few normal modes. In other words, you may have more than enough stamina on your gear because you overgear the fights.

However, the average raider hasn't cleared all of the 5.1 content. They are going into ToT significantly undergeared for even the first few bosses. And when you are undergeared, your absolute, 100% guaranteed, there-really-is-no-argument-to-be-had-here-so-don't-even-try stat is STAMINA. Get the health you need to survive long enough to receive heals. Period. This is exactly the reason that hard-mode progression tanks stack Stamina early on - to meet the EH checks they run into when running content they significantly undergear.

I'll note that if you had pulled the last few bosses of ToT in week one, you may have gotten a very different impression. The first 5 or 6 do not significantly challenge EH, but the last few do. Even in ~507ish ilvl gear, Lei Shen hits like a truck. From a random Lei Shen 10N log:

[19:20:35.738] Lei Shen hits Yogurto 163283
[19:20:37.252] Lei Shen hits Yogurto 169082

170k every 1.5 seconds is a lot to deal with on a boss with a lot of movement. This whole myth of "get enough health to survive 3 attacks and you're fine" doesn't cut it, because that's not how most tank deaths work. If you die in 2-3 hits, its because you failed a cooldown for something predictable. What you're more likely to do is die to a string of 5-6 hits, or 3-4 plus incidental damage or a special, during a period where your healing is interrupted. And nothing guards against that better than stamina.

2. The best way to reduce stress on healers is by lowering incoming damage. Stamina does not lower incoming damage at all. You take more damage if you forgo tanking stats for stam. The term manasponge came about for a reason. It is not a term of endearment.

This is another falsehood that gets tossed about by inexperienced tanks. The term "mana-sponge" stopped being relevant somewhere around Burning Crusade. Yes, a tank stacking Stamina does take more damage than a tank stacking, say, mastery. Does that make them a worse tank? I'd say that the answer is unequivocally "No."

If your goal is taking the absolute least damage possible, you should be stacking avoidance. Pound for pound, avoidance gives more "total damage reduction" (TDR) than any other stat. You know what our absolute worst TDR stats are? Hit, expertise, and haste.

Yet looking at your armory, you seem to have reforged much of your dodge and parry into hit, expertise, and haste. So we are confronted with a conundrum: either

1) you think that TDR is something tanks should seek, in which case you are reforging and gemming completely wrong and shouldn't be giving advice.

Or

2) you don't think that TDR is worth seeking, and instead gem for "smoothness" stats, but you're telling people on the forums they should be seeking TDR stats anyway. In which case you also shouldn't be giving advice.

The only constant in those two statements is that you really, really shouldn't be giving advice. :)

The fact is that TDR hasn't been relevant since BC or Wrath, depending on who you ask. Potentially very briefly at the beginning of Cataclysm, when healers were undergeared, but that quickly ended once they started acquiring even a little bit of normal-mode raid loot. Healers simply do not run out of mana healing tanks nowadays, even in 25-man. They run out of mana for all sorts of other reasons - excessive raid damage being the primary culprit - but if you take any half-decent healer and tell them their only job is to heal any half-decent tank, mana will never be an issue.

What kills tanks is not their healer running out of mana, but running out of time. Spike damage is what kills tanks, and it's what has been killing tanks since time immemorial. Taking a few too many large hits in a row while your healer is distracted, stunned, moving, or what have you. That is how tanks die.

If you look at most logs, it's not hard to see the truth in either of these assertions. Most healers overheal by 30% or more when they heal tanks. That's not because they have mana to waste, but because it's hard to avoid doing so with all of the self-healing and cross-healing going on. And more importantly, because they have to maintain some level of overhealing to combat spikes, because during a spike that extra throughput becomes immensely valuable, so much so that it's worth overhealing by 30%-40% most of the time. Because it means that extra 30%-40% throughput is there during a spike, when it matters.

And if we've accepted that spike damage is what's relevant (well, maybe you haven't, but most good tanks in the world have, so... I'm going to go out on a limb and assert that it is), then the question of stat priorities gets turned on its head. All of the sudden, "reliable' stats start to win out. Having hit, expertise, and haste ensures higher SotR uptime and thus fewer/smaller spikes. And what's the most reliable stat of them all? STAMINA. it is there, always, all the time, preventing spikes. Because having 10% more health makes every spike 10% smaller, and easier to heal.

It's even worth noting that from a healer's perspective, stamina is a mana-saving stat. This talk of "mana sponges" suggests a fairly critical oversight in your thinking. Healers are not robots or calculators, they're people. They heal based on a few factors, and one important one is reacting to changes of your health bar. A larger health pool does a few things for them: it makes each attack a smaller proportion of that bar, which makes those hits feel less dangerous to the healer (because they are). it also gives them more time to react, because they're thinking in terms of percentages of your health bar, not hit points.

More importantly, it lets them plan more effectively. If they know that the next hit is going to be a relatively smaller portion of your health bar, they cay comfortably start casting their slow heal, or allow that slow heal to finish if they're mid-cast. Doing that actually saves them mana in the long run, because they need to cast fewer of their quick, mana-inefficient "panic" heals. This isn't even conjecture, by the way - it's pretty well-established healer theory.

Aside: There are actually a lot of parallels between healer theory and network queuing theory. It's one topic I rather enjoy discussing with a colleague of mine who is both a computer engineering professor and a priest healer. Crazy fun stuff if you're into that sort of thing.

3. Aggro is something you should never need to worry about. Vengeance does that job for you. If you lose threat to a non tank then its not a gear issue.

On this, at least, we agree.

4. While tank DPS mattering vs not mattering is an argument for another thread, "DPS" stats are most certainly important for a prot paladin. Hit, expertise, haste and mastery help with point 2 in reducing incoming damage more than even dodge or parry. Stamina does not ever help reduce incoming damage. (Keep your bloody DK comments to yourselves)

False. Flat-out false. Hit, expertise, haste, and mastery are ALL inferior to avoidance in terms of reducing damage taken. I have tested this extensively, as have others. If you're suggesting all of that work is in error, I encourage you to present your thoroughly-detailed, carefully-tested mathematical models to the community for peer review. After all, I have, it's only fair that you do the same.

Stop telling people they need "enough" stam to not get two shot. They already have it.

Stop telling people they already have "enough," because frankly, they don't.

Seriously, consider this "average" tank you keep referring to. First of all, let's clear up some misconceptions.

1) The average tank is relatively undergeared for normal raid content. Hence, they are already in a position where stamina is probably (if not definitely) their best stat. Running LFR doesn't count, you could run LFR in greens gemmed with spirit and still perform decently well if you had half a clue.

2) Unfortunately, the average tank doesn't have a clue. They don't follow a tight rotation. They stumble through it, push back holy power generators, and have large amounts of "real-life" latency because they aren't hitting a spell immediately upon the GCD ending. They don't time their SotR according to the boss' swing timer. They don't pool holy power so that they can double-up on SotR during a dangerous spike. In many cases, they macro SotR to Crusader Strike. I've even seen tanks go a full 20+ seconds hitting NOTHING BUT CRUSADER STRIKE (and, of course, their SotR which was macro'd to Crusader Strike).

The average tank plays considerably below their theoretical potential based on gear.

In short, the average tank is actually pretty terrible.

Now consider that this is the tank Ask Mr. Robot is trying to help. You cannot rely on them running a proper rotation, so trying to tell them to stack haste and mastery is a waste - they're not timing SotR to cover boss swings, and in some cases, they're not getting maximum uptime on SotR. Giving them more haste often just creates more empty space rather than more ability usage, because they're used to a 1.5-second GCD from playing other characters and just stick with that inner metronome.

In other words, buffing active mitigation stats for a tank that uses Active Mitigation poorly is not efficient.

What is efficient? Passive mitigation. Avoidance. STAMINA. And to a lesser extent Mastery, thanks to the block component. These are all stats that are always on, helping the weak tank survive through content they are undergeared (and often under-skilled) for. When you try and optimize for a player that is guaranteed to screw up a lot, you give them the stats they cannot screw up.

----------------------------------------------------------

This was a long post, but if nothing else, here's what you should take away from it. You may find that the baseline stats on AMR do not suit you very well. In most cases, that means one of two things:

1) You're not running 25-man content, which generally stresses EH more than 10-man content. I'm not making a 10 vs 25 difficulty argument here, this is simple facts based on tuning. 10-man bosses don't melee as hard as 25-man bosses because of healer throughput considerations, and smaller hits generally make EH less important.

OR

2) You're already at a skill or gear level that is above-average. This may come as a shock to you, because everyone tends to think they're the "average" tank. I even think so sometimes, until I look at logs or progression rates. As such, the "average" settings may not work as well for you. However, you should also be intelligent and experienced enough to realize this fact, and adjust the stat weights to suit your needs.

I actually heavily de-emphasized stamina in the current set of stat weights compared to what I gave AMR in 5.0/5.1 based on feedback from 10-man raiders. While I still think that stamina is a GREAT stat in all formats (seriously, I think that even in 10N, more stamina is rarely a bad thing, it's just often not as useful as more haste thanks to the DPS contribution - but STAM is usually still the better survivability stat), I recognize that a lot of 10-man players really don't care for stam stacking that much. So this time around, the stat weights were chosen such that it favored hybrid haste/stam or exp/stam gems in nearly every non-blue slot.

Lowering the stam weight from 1.5 to 1.3 should shift it into an all-out haste (or mastery) mode that would be appropriate for 10N tanks which are overgearing content or feel comfortable with their current stam level. I don't develop AMR, so I can't modify it to have a stam "cap," but doing so wouldn't be a bad option either. Another possibility is to offer a 10/25 toggle or a different set of weights for 10 vs. 25, but again, that's up to the people who make the tool. I just do the math.

Also note: I'm not affiliated with AMR, even if I find their tool incredibly useful in my own work. I complain about it a lot too, because I think there are areas it could be better. But I generally make suggestions to them about how to improve it rather than taking a giant dump on the tool on forums, because the latter isn't very productive. As Wrathblood said, it's like hating on a slide rule.
I don't know why people keep using MrRobot when it's wrong for some/most classes.
because the signal-to-noise ratio is pretty awful around here


One man's noise is another man's signal!

Thanks for the great post, Theck.
Do you even tank Meanor?

1. You will never need more stam than what comes on gear. You are not doing heroics this week. It is silly to have such a high default weight for stam. It is silly to gem solid cuts.

2. The best way to reduce stress on healers is by lowering incoming damage. Stamina does not lower incoming damage at all. You take more damage if you forgo tanking stats for stam. The term manasponge came about for a reason. It is not a term of endearment.

3. Aggro is something you should never need to worry about. Vengeance does that job for you. If you lose threat to a non tank then its not a gear issue.

4. While tank DPS mattering vs not mattering is an argument for another thread, "DPS" stats are most certainly important for a prot paladin. Hit, expertise, haste and mastery help with point 2 in reducing incoming damage more than even dodge or parry. Stamina does not ever help reduce incoming damage. (Keep your bloody DK comments to yourselves)

Stop telling people they need "enough" stam to not get two shot. They already have it.


This is so much lol.
I learned a lot from this thread. Thanks to AMR and Theck for putting their considerably lengthy contributions in a detailed and mature manner.

The other side of the argument was nice to read and consider, unfortunately a few of you could learn to be a bit more considerate and calm while engaging in a discussion.

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