Pallys Unite! Fair CC (especially fear) break

Paladin
Post Limit:
Hee hee! I know you're right. I even expected some serious flaming posting it in here. I'll just use "send suggestion"... again. I'd just like to get more of us Pallys (or anyone) to bug Blizz about it.

I've been playing for 1 1/2 years, almost exclusively this character. I was Protection about 90% of the time, but I would always switch to Ret now and again to keep my skills fresh. I pretty exclusively did 1v1 PvP... not caring much for the chaos in BGs at lower levels especially. But I've been doing lots of BGs the past few months. What started all this is my good friend was leveling up a Lock. He was 80 and I was 85. I would help him train by taking off my armor and fighting so we would be more even. As he leveled up, I put on another piece of armor... until he hit 84. I had to be fully geared to keep it even with him a level below me, and my gear level was WELL above his. Since he matched my level and gear level, it's almost no point to duel anymore. You're right, it's an unwinnable duel, and there shouldn't be "unwinnable" duels. There DEFINITELY should be duels where one class is naturally stronger than the other, but it seems to me lore-wise that Pallys/Locks and Pallys/DKs should be equally strong in opposite ways. If I went Ret and he used all his minions/minion stun, dazes, teleports but no fears, I would have a fair fight. If I blew my big CD and used all my skill, maybe I'd win if in the first 30 seconds of the fight. If he has good skills and clear mind and survives it based on skill, then he'll probably win the fight after the 30 seconds. That seems exciting, fun, and challenging to me. As Protection, I could fight almost any class of similar skill to a draw at least, sometimes win, sometimes lose, but always having to do my very best and stay aware and work hard. I love that! But there's zero joy in matching with someone who doesn't even have to work if they know fear, life drain, fear, life drain, fear, then a 170k hit while all my attack require melee range. There should be something balancing. IMO, Fear is just an OP ability. What justifies it having no CD, little to no defense, low cost, and not breaking on serious damage? All I ask is make them work for the win.

And I don't think you sound cocky at all, and I REALLY appreciate the offer to help! I'm actually loving Holy Shock (though it's still not optimal... Protection still seems my best hope and I'll be gearing up for that after I feel really solid about my Shock spec). My Lock friend and I are going to do 2v2s together, with me healing some and damaging as much as possible. Seems like a good combo. But I would love to get any Ret tips (or any spec) you would be willing to share. And if you've every wanted to try Shock, I have MAD healing and damage macros, and some great utility macros that nicely exploit our off-GCD instant casts. I would love to share them too if they could help you :D But definitely I appreciate you offering your experience :D

And since you said it already (an unwinnable duel), wouldn't you like to be able to win it, or at least have a fair fight, simply by pressuring Blizz to bring Fear in line with every single other CC in the game? ;) We deserve a fighting chance. Thanks again. If you don't mind, I'll send you a friend request, and maybe you could message/email some tips. And I already have an email made that I sent to others with all my best Shock macros if you're feeling like a change. It's SUCH fun to play, even if I don't always win :)

Thanks again, and I'll consider posting this in "flame central" and then just let all the responses do whatever they do LOL! :)
a 'lock with half a brain should beat a ret in a duel. the friend i play with most is a 'lock as well. however the game is balanced (if you can call it that :P) around 3v3. i have no problems beating warlocks once i have a solid team to cover for my weaknesses

protection isn't a pvp spec. i mean play whatever you find fun, but the devs put no effort into making tanking specs viable. for random bg's anything works. in 2v2 and 3v3, ret and holy both work. no one really plays 5's, lol. for rbg's, you pretty much gotta go holy. groups do not like to bring ret paladins, and they're not in the wrong

btw it would really help if you did some bg's and worked on your gear. all it takes is a couple solid days of honor farming and your power level will increase by a ton. might want to pick what spec to focus on for now because it can be hard to maintain two sets of gear...

03/24/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Klethazeroth
but it seems to me lore-wise that Pallys/Locks and Pallys/DKs should be equally strong in opposite ways.

lore doesn't play a large role in balance. if you want to feel like you're smiting evil, again i suggest glyph of turn evil. you can send ghouls, demons, pysfiends, etc running for the hills

03/24/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Klethazeroth
And I don't think you sound cocky at all, and I REALLY appreciate the offer to help! I'm actually loving Holy Shock (though it's still not optimal... Protection still seems my best hope and I'll be gearing up for that after I feel really solid about my Shock spec). My Lock friend and I are going to do 2v2s together, with me healing some and damaging as much as possible. Seems like a good combo.

holy is a healing spec. i mean i guess you can try to play "shockadin" and do a ton of damage, but healer damage is pretty low in MoP. you should focus on healing and CC (hoj, repentance, blinding light)

ret plays more hybridy. it's a little more complicated to play than holy and can be difficult to understand. it's DPS, yes, but it has more pure support spells than most DPS. it's melee, but you have to kite and use line of sight a lot. it's very fragile if you don't do this right and if your teammates don't protect you properly
for the most part PvP isn't balanced around 1v1 and warlock vs. paladin in a 1v1 is such a small part of whether or not paladin is competitive in PvP


ive noticed that the classes that usually suck in 1v1s ..... also suck in 2v2 3v3 what have you.not always the case but there is a correlation there.
TLDR This is a waste to post this here. Yes fears are annoying I dont think give us a skill to break it but add a debuff to fears so we cannot be feared for a few seconds on top of DR
@Hafleur: Thanks for the tips! I'll try. I'm just frustrated. I really feel we're getting walked all over by MOST other classes. Pallys used to be able to hold their own against anyone. Again, I'm not looking for a free ride. Just a fair shake. I was perfectly content fighting to a draw as Protection though. At least I felt viable. Even that seems gone. I'll work at Ret again with your tips, but I haven't given up on Shock yet! First fun I've had in two months! :) I am working on gearing up... I'm just not a PvP addict (and there is always someone with Raid and Epic gear to PWN you here and there... that's fine). I'll keep at it :)

@Alaenia: I'm working on spreading this request around, including submitting directly to Blizz. The more voices they hear, the more they (might) listen. Can't hurt. I'll be posting similarly in the more "watched" forums. But please post away and help the cause. We worked hard to get to 90.

I was just hanging out with my Lock friend a couple hours ago who showed me yet ANOTHER glyph combo that "increases damage this" and "reduces damage that"... things we simply don't have. Our glyphs are marginal at best. Our talents are average at best. Look at the list of changes to classes with the 5.2 patch... the Lock list as well as others is just improvement after improvement... The Pally list has nerfs with a marginal boost for Ret (which still isn't CLOSE to Warriors (who can now even punch through Divine Shield!) or the like). I can't help but feel like SOMEONE at Blizz has it in for us LOL!

I'm not trying to whine. I just want a fair fight. That's all. Thanks again everyone!
A long time ago, fear was easily broken by everyone and the classes that relied on fear for the majority of their CC suffered for it, mainly priests and warlocks.

To compensate, these classes became tanky, ie. drain locks, disc priests and this caused many ripples in their survivability because they would scale too well in better gear and become virtually unkillable, then burst would catch up and they would cry, it would pendulum back and forth.

Personally, I just want to be able to judge friendly targets for short term buffs (or even as a heal). Or what if judging a friendly target reduced the duration of current CC on them by 1-2 seconds? Something more fun.
I've been around for quite a while and always fear the locks, for good reason.
However it seems to be getting worst. Not only do they have a lot of control over you but their tanking abilities and healing went through the roof.
I don't have a problem with being feared but I have a problem with them being able to heal themselves better than I do and do way more damage.
Something got to give.
All those years I have been playing this toon I always wonder what was the use for it.
You are right Hoff when you say that ret is more complicated than it seems. We are a support class but it feels like we are the only one and in many case of organized PvP you better off with another class or spec.
I want sacred shield and our healing over time back...
Yeah I'm bitter. It seems that they never knew what to do with us.
I really love it with when I get feared and all of a sudden can walk under water...

...but then have to swim back up because you can only walk under water when you're scared.
I still don't understand the general opinion on the CC debate.

How does it make any sense to take away CC breaks or not add new ones when CC is the problem, and there is no intention in the foreseeable future of the majority of those CCs being nerfed or removed?
If I manage to rebuke fear, slam the lock until lockout expires, burn burst macro and use fist of Justice at end of the rebuke lock out, I have managed to give the warlock a wild thrashing. I'm just kidding, he trinkets and deathcoils me and then fears me.


Deathcoil hasn't been in the game for a long time in Lock form.
I would just like a passive buff that allows diminishing returns on all fears - and/or the ability to cast our anti magic shield (so we're not blown up mid fear)
FFS most Paladins (especially Rets) wouldn't complain about fear if they had an instant gap closer that was on a reasonable cooldown.
FFS most Paladins (especially Rets) wouldn't complain about fear if they had an instant gap closer that was on a reasonable cooldown.


Oh you mean like warriors, monks and Dks have? Yeah...
THAT is definitely another frustration of mine. I finally ran into that in a BG a few nights ago where the DK "yanked" me back while I was running away with Speed of Light AND Hand of Freedom on. So yet ANOTHER thing that HoF is absolutely worthless against. And we have nothing like it, as you said. No special way to close the gap that other "fighter" classes got as a bonus. Frustrating :-/
03/25/2013 10:15 AMPosted by Amuroraye
FFS most Paladins (especially Rets) wouldn't complain about fear if they had an instant gap closer that was on a reasonable cooldown.


Oh you mean like warriors, monks and Dks have? Yeah...


Don't forget about Ferals and Rogues :P
A long time ago, fear was easily broken by everyone and the classes that relied on fear for the majority of their CC suffered for it, mainly priests and warlocks.

To compensate, these classes became tanky, ie. drain locks, disc priests and this caused many ripples in their survivability because they would scale too well in better gear and become virtually unkillable, then burst would catch up and they would cry, it would pendulum back and forth.

Personally, I just want to be able to judge friendly targets for short term buffs (or even as a heal). Or what if judging a friendly target reduced the duration of current CC on them by 1-2 seconds? Something more fun.


Well, I'm not asking them to go overboard. But NO class should have a CC that virtually never breaks on damage, can hardly be broken at all, that has low cast time, no cooldown, and virtually no cost. It's patently absurd.

And @Fiorillia: What you said about locks now being great self-healers and high DPS is spot on. It's so out of balance.
Paladins have a fear breaker, its called Divine Shield and while other classes get individual abilities to counter different effects. Paladin get theirs compacted into one ability, Divine Shield.
Its the be all to end all button.

Agree Rebuke could do with increased range, considering paladin gap closing isn't that good nor instant. Anyone can avoid a paladins interrupts quite easily.
Lore wise it would make sense, as a rebuke is or can be a verbal reprimand, so shouting this out would carry for a little distance at least you'd think.


Sorry... I meant to say thanks for this comment! Honestly, I think I would almost be just fine if this was the ONLY buff they gave us. I'll push this point even more. Thanks for that input, and please (despite how pointless it might "feel) submit suggestion. It only takes a sec, and can't hurt. I DO think Blizz cares when they hear about a problem enough. I'm a programmer, and I care about every line of code I write, and the Blizz peeps probably play as much as they work. I think they care more than we might feel sometimes. They just need to hear the requests enough times. Thanks again. (everyone)

Join the Conversation