Prot: Seeking answers for one who won't ask

Paladin
My guild master has been tanking on his paladin, and doing so proudly, for a few expansions now but MoP has thrown him for a loop. As hard headed as he is I have taken it apon myself to seek some answers or advice so he can enjoy tanking again. As of now he has mainly put his paladin on a shelf in fear of tanking all together. Reason being he feels hes not generating enough threat due to low expertise and missing some hit. I could understand his "fear" of it if it were from already geared players pulling aggro but its been this way since launch.

Here is the part that makes me scratch my head, his gear(while faaar from anything grand) is around ilvl 455 and he is terrified of doing heroics on the base that he feels not enough threat/control is being generated. From looking at his armory page it kind of makes me go 'wtf' but only because I am not 100% on the paladin tanking scene these days. He's far from the expertise cap and off on hit rating as well even after some reforging. I may want to mention he despises dalies so his reputation isn't exactly anything to fall back on for gear ath the moment.

I do know that the hit and expertise are crucial for holy power generation for proper tanking and so this brings me to my questions.

He and I both know the 7.5% on hit and 15% on expertise is what is ideally needed but is the full amount really that crucial for heroics?

Is there a relatively comfortable area in terms of these stats that he should feel like tanking shouldn't be much of an issue in heroics?

I hate seeing him log onto his paladin just to change his mind and play something else because he thinks he "sucks" at a role hes enjoyed for years. Any help, answers or advice is welcome and thanks in advance for taking the time to read.
In heroics, no, the full amount isn't nneded. It's only when you start LFR/raiding that you need the max (or fairly close to it). If you have a 0.1% chance to miss against a level 92 target that's 1 out of every 1000 attacks that will miss on average. That's not many. At 455 ilevel, I'd recommend picking up the Ghost Iron dragonling - gem with 600 hit, 600 expertise and 600 mastery/haste. Seriously, it's an amazing trinket for a 450 blue and will easily be better than most 463 stuff.
The hard caps for hit and expertise for heroic dungeons are 6% and 12% respectively; he will get literally zero benefit from going above those numbers until he attempt raids or challenge modes.

I just ran a sanity test using AMR, and these caps are obtainable with a mix of 450-463 gear obtained via quests, Justice Points, normal dungeon drops, and the crafting professions. The particular gear set I came up with works out to an average item level of 453.

Here is the set I came up with: http://pastebin.com/B7grSwXc
I'd recommend picking up the Ghost Iron dragonling - gem with 600 hit, 600 expertise and 600 mastery/haste


If he isn't pumping either mastery or haste in his gear set, then I would not recommend placing a mastery or haste cog in that last socket. Stick with the stats he is gearing for, which are probably parry/dodge.

Threat is basically handed to you, so as long as you are using your abilities in the properly, there should be little to no threat issues. Yes in random pugs the dps will target whatever they feel like, but paladins have utility to counter that. Hand of Salvation isn't on too long of a cd, and you can even spec into Clemency to be able to use it twice, with each on their own cd.
He just needs to man up and get out there. You could tank heroics in total garbage and be fine. Sounds to me like he's developed a complex about tanking that he needs to correct; it's not about gear or hit caps. It's about confidence.
I would recommend achieving the hit/exp caps previously mentioned first. Really, once I hit those (and my prot set was entirely blues with maybe a green or two left), I had no trouble with threat, except that guy pulling 150k DPS when your vengeance hasn't ramped up yet.

If he is willing to learn the more active tanking style, I was much more successful with haste/mastery at that ilvl than dodge/parry. Granted, I come from a healing mentality, so using buttons to heal/mitigate damage came pretty easily to me, but it's certainly not difficult. At ilvl 460, I had very little trouble staying alive, even through pulls where the healer died from standing in a puddle or some such.

Will he run with guildies (if not a full guild group, then at least 2 or 3 others) who will let him take a moment to establish threat? Running with people who aren't just trying to get through as fast as possible whatever the cost can do WONDERS for your confidence. I speak from the position of having been super insecure (tanking and healing) because I didn't know how to tell if the problem was me or other people. Once he can do that successfully, he'll know that if the group is giving him trouble, he's dealing with bad players or jerks. Sadly, you just have to learn not to take those groups personally, and split when the headache isn't worth it.
Thanks all for the tips and advice I'll see if I can stream it to him in a manner he wont find offensive, no one likes another telling them how to play.

The hard caps for hit and expertise for heroic dungeons are 6% and 12% respectively; he will get literally zero benefit from going above those numbers until he attempt raids or challenge modes.


I wasn't aware of the difference in % for just heroics. With that being said I'm sure he isn't either as hes trying to get capped for heroics before running most of them. The set you presented will help alot in coaxing him to do more runs for his goal, thanks a ton.

I'd recommend picking up the Ghost Iron dragonling - gem with 600 hit, 600 expertise and 600 mastery/haste. Seriously, it's an amazing trinket for a 450 blue and will easily be better than most 463 stuff.


I had for some reason thought we had already crafted him one but I suppose that was for his ret set when he was leveling. Think we got that taken care of now, many thanks for a reminder. :)

f he isn't pumping either mastery or haste in his gear set, then I would not recommend placing a mastery or haste cog in that last socket. Stick with the stats he is gearing for, which are probably parry/dodge.


03/27/2013 10:16 AMPosted by Weeblzwobble
If he is willing to learn the more active tanking style, I was much more successful with haste/mastery at that ilvl than dodge/parry.


I think hes been focusing on mastery quite a bit, as for haste I'm not quite sure but it is understandable in terms of building holy power.

03/27/2013 10:16 AMPosted by Weeblzwobble
Will he run with guildies (if not a full guild group, then at least 2 or 3 others) who will let him take a moment to establish threat?


When he does run things these days my husband and myself tend to run with him but being our guild is very small family guild we tend to pug the last two spots. ((Despite our roster its only about 7 of us and a few with multiple accounts.)) In any case having three of the five normally always helps, of course keeping in mind we don't get "special" /150k dps players in the last two slots. Lately though hes been joining in groups without asking if others want to join and I think hes suffering from it. I'll have to remind him we are still there for whatever he needs even if we don't need the runs ourselves.
03/28/2013 03:33 AMPosted by Hanamí
I think hes been focusing on mastery quite a bit, as for haste I'm not quite sure but it is understandable in terms of building holy power.

Mastery is fine if he's still learning. Haste requires a bit more advanced gameplay.
The other thing I would note is that there is more than a fair amount of aggro drop mechanics in the current set of heroics. When this first happened to me, I started to panic and doubt my tanking ability. Fortunately I was lucky enough to have a friend in vent helping coach on the various bosses me the first time I tanked some of the heroics, and he reassured me that these drops were normal.

The other approach I've used is to spec over into ret and go as a DPS. That gives you the chance to watch how the tank works the boss and get a better idea of the mechanics. I've done this with LFR, gearing up toward 480. Even better, although the LFR item drops are spec dependent the tier tokens are not, so I've been able to build a second set of tank-type gear as I collect the DPS gear. After being through the raids as a DPS a few times, (and watching you-tube videos) I'm feeling pretty confident about queuing as a tank.
I wouldn't worry about everything everyone is saying regarding the hit/expertise cap. While they are right, there is a fundamental issue he is missing.

He doesn't have Glyph of the Battle Healer, which leads me to believe he isn't using Seal of Insight. Using the combination of both those generates quite a bit of off-healing threat. And it helps heal the group! Coupled with normal rotation mechanics, it can get off the charts. And when you start taking a lot of damage and your Vengeance spikes, it becomes not only a useful tool, but a crucial mechanic in sustaining threat, health, and damage.

He could also swap out his Glyph of Avenging Wrath for Glyph of Final Wrath for more Holy Wrath damage on targets near death (which is amazing because Holy Wrath is one of our hardest hitters), or he could could opt for Glyph of Divine Protection, which basically turns DP into the Cataclysm version where you get some physical damage reduction; which can be nice for early heroics.

I'd also suggest 3 more things. He has Colossus enchanted on his weapon. Windsong can Proc Haste, Mastery, and Critical, all at once. We've already established Mastery is fine for tanking, but a Haste proc will help smooth out his rotation, and a Critical proc will help add some cheese threat. Plus Windsong is dirt cheap.

Holy Avenger is largely situational, and is really only good for burst, or boss burst, or generating tons of threat right away. I'd honestly recommend him trying out Divine Purpose, because its very easy to manage, and can be downright amazing at times if it chain procs. Get 5-6 procs of that while throwing out Shield of the Righteous on a boss, and he'll have all the threat he needs.

The last thing is he is using Execution Sentence. It's a great tool for self-healing, or doing more DPS. But it has a 1-minute cooldown. It's really good for just, a boss. Holy Prism would offer him something extra to grab a mob with (it's ranged, and heals targets after the target it hits; or damages enemy targets if he uses it on someone in the party). He could Judgment, Avenger's Shield, Holy Prism, Reckoning (taunt), and drop his Consecrate, and begin working that AoE a lot better than if he just threw out *1* Execution Sentence during a trash pull. Holy Prism has a 20-second cooldown as well. It's just really nice to have when you are starting out. I still use it to this day because it helps top off the raid, or my melee friends, or whoever.

All of this is subjective, but these are some things that really helped me, and I was given this sort of advice from one of the best Paladin tanks in the world, Slootbag (thanks to him being on my native server, and a really nice guy).

If nothing else, have him running Seal of Insight with Glyph of the Battle Healer will make a huge difference.

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