NT vs Frost bomb

Mage
I've been hearing that NT scales better with haste that frost bomb, but is this actually true? And at what point gear-wise does this actually become noticeable?

On a very related topic, how many targets does a fight need to have and in what configuration do they need to be for NT to outperform Frost Bomb or vice-versa? I've really heard gossipy proponents on both sides pre-5.2, but I'm wondering about post, as a 40% buff kinda exaggerates things.

edit: sp
03/31/2013 08:49 PMPosted by Rasthen
I've been hearing that NT scales better with haste that frost bomb, but is this actually true? And at what point gear-wise does this actually become noticeable?


Eh, a little bit. If you were casting nothing but the bombs, they would scale equally with haste. NT gets a little bit of an edge because you don't have to cast it (much) more frequently as haste goes up, so you have (a little) more time to cast other spells. Note that at zero haste, Frost Bomb does more damage than NT to help compensate for this effect. So while NT scales a little better, some of that extra scaling is used up on catching up to Frost's initial advantage.

On a very related topic, how many targets does a fight need to have and in what configuration do they need to be for NT to outperform Frost Bomb or vice-versa? I've really heard gossipy proponents on both sides pre-5.2, but I'm wondering about post, as a 40% buff kinda exaggerates things.


The TheoryCraft-o-Matic Lite can help you figure that out at various stat levels:

http://lhiveras-library.com/wow-spells

Note that it's not as simple a question as it may sound. E.g., at 5 targets, you may find that Frost Bomb's DPET is 2.4x that of NT, but NT's is 2.2x as high as Blizzard's, so any time you spend casting Blizzard while FB is on cooldown, NT is catching up. You kind of need to work a timeline at a given level of haste with a given number of targets and see what the best combinations are and compare them.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Eh, a little bit. If you were casting nothing but the bombs, they would scale equally with haste. NT gets a little bit of an edge because you don't have to cast it (much) more frequently as haste goes up, so you have (a little) more time to cast other spells. Note that at zero haste, Frost Bomb does more damage than NT to help compensate for this effect. So while NT scales a little better, some of that extra scaling is used up on catching up to Frost's initial advantage.


NT is getting a much bigger edge single target because of the amount of haste for the extra ticks. With those extra ticks we get more Brain Freeze procs compared to that of Frost Bomb. That is where the difference comes from more then anything. While the damage, DPET, etc. themselves are very close to one another for NT vs Frost Bomb comparison, the Brain Freeze procs make that much of a difference.

Edit:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u2jri3n52zcncwib/details/3/?s=331&e=916
10m Lei Shen kill, 63 procs.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qmiq7gtdfjeaoo28/details/6/?s=5784&e=6202
Tortos 25m Kill, 38 procs

Now while the fight lengths might vary. There are about two minutes of nothing to do with the two transitions Lei Shen does, so the fight lengths are very similar.
03/31/2013 09:55 PMPosted by Leviatron
NT is getting a much bigger edge single target because of the amount of haste for the extra ticks. With those extra ticks we get more Brain Freeze procs compared to that of Frost Bomb. That is where the difference comes from more then anything. While the damage, DPET, etc. themselves are very close to one another for NT vs Frost Bomb comparison, the Brain Freeze procs make that much of a difference.


Not really, no.

Say you're at zero haste. With NT, you've got a 9% chance each second to get a proc, so your average interval between procs is:

1.0 / 0.09 = 11.11 seconds

Obviously, sometimes you'll get lucky and get several procs together, but sometimes you'll get unlucky and go considerably longer than the average with no procs.

With FB, you've got a 100% chance each detonation to get a proc, so your average interval between procs is:

11.5 / 1.0 = 11.5 seconds

Now let's say you're at 30% haste. This reduces the time between chances to proc:

NT: 1.0 / 1.3 / 0.09 = 8.55 seconds
FB: 11.5 / 1.3 / 1.0 = 8.85 seconds

As you can see, the number of BF procs increases at the same rate for both bombs.

However, FB actually has an edge here, because as the proc chance interval for NT decreases, it becomes increasingly likely that two procs will happen close enough together that you lose one before you can use it. This will never happen with FB.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
In terms of raiding,

In ToT, I think Council is one fight where NT will be better than Frost Bomb, because you can multi DoT all of the bosses, and they are usually too far apart for Frost Bomb to hit all of them (one of them keeps rolling across the room).

But there are other fights where Frost Bomb is better, Horridon for instance. On Tortos, if you are on bat duty, Frost Bomb > NT. If you're on turtle duty NT probably wins since they can spread out when they're spinning all over the place.

I haven't done Primordius but I'm guessing NT wins there?
I been having this derp idea that frost bomb is good generally on tortos cause you can slow the turtles if you time it right as they come out from under him. Guess ill be using NT more.
I been having this derp idea that frost bomb is good generally on tortos cause you can slow the turtles if you time it right as they come out from under him. Guess ill be using NT more.


Technically thats right, but as a frost mage its not really all that important. The frost bomb slow is a pretty short duration, on top of that both FFB and frostbolt slow what they hit. If you're the only possible person that can slow them, then its probably not a bad idea, but with at least 4+ other people that can do it as well its not really necessary.

Edit- Really as any mage its not totally important. A Fire mage can just glyph for FFB and use that instead of fireball to get a slow and an Arcane Mage can just use the Glyph of Slow to put a Slow on whatever turtle you're hittin.
I only use frost bomb. I'd use nether tempest if I'd have light of the cosmos heroic. Even then, I enjoy the frost bomb gameplay a lot more.
For PvP I prefer NT, and here is why:

I've found the brainfreeze procs equally with both. A frost bomb is a guaranteed brainfreeze (if not dispelled) and Nether Tempest randomly pops them (if not dispelled).

Notice that I mention dispelling for both of those; most good healers will automatically dispel a frost bomb because they know it has a cooldown and you have to cast it. Meanwhile I have realized healers don't even bother dispelling a Nether Tempest, because they know it is an instacast and you will just reapply it. The fact that it is an instacast also means that you have more time to kite/cast frostbolt or throw out CCs which are huge to the mage game right now. In large scale battles just make sure you don't put it on someone close to your CC target, and if you don't have a CC target in the first place you're doing it wrong :P.

Ok, so NT does not slow targets and that is the one downside. But here's where it gets awesome, you can cast it on multiple targets! Not to mention it is annoying as hell to have cast on you. I have had it spell reflected and let me tell you the mere animation from this spell is 10x more annoying than being slowed by a frostbomb. I've noticed teams seem to be more unorganized when half of them have little arcane bolts zipping around their faces.

Note that I do not play PvE, this reply is PvP specific. If you want to slay dragons idgaf what you use just please take a shower and wash your face.
However, FB actually has an edge here, because as the proc chance interval for NT decreases, it becomes increasingly likely that two procs will happen close enough together that you lose one before you can use it. This will never happen with FB.


I sent GC a tweet asking if it was possible for them to add an ICD to Brain Freeze procs and increase the proc chance slightly as compensation to prevent this. No Response :(

I've had Brain Freeze proc on 3 Tempest ticks in a row and was only able to use one of them, it ticks at some silly fast interval like .7secs. I had just started my frostbolt cast when a proc occurred, in the middle of the the cast a second proc occurred, and just as my cast finished and I hit FFB the 3rd proc occurred and was used.
From raiding point of view, they are depending on the situation and encounter. As someone mentioned above, frost bomb is good for clustered aoe fights. You will find the difference minor in simulations. In practice, it does not matter if one bomb is superior by 3%-5% in bomb damage, NT still would be my choice for most single target encounters as frost due to ease of use.

With the soft haste cap and pvp damage limitations of frost, also the Multi procs cluster of wasted brain freeze from NT bombs, I am currently quite concerned with frost's long term raiding potentials.
However, FB actually has an edge here, because as the proc chance interval for NT decreases, it becomes increasingly likely that two procs will happen close enough together that you lose one before you can use it. This will never happen with FB.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

This is true and also very annoying.

Also a reason that I will replace Frost Bomb with NT only if I can replace my Shado Pan trinket with something like the Trinket off Maegera (sp?). For some reason the Shado Pan Trinket procing during Heroism will take me all the way from 30% haste to 96% haste and I the only time I tried NT in a fight I lost so many procs in that short interval.

At least with Frost Bomb I won't have that problem and I can use the Haste spike to cast something else, even though excessive Haste over 50% doesn't seem to help (just feels like it doesn't, I don't know if I'm right here). I like it when just the Shado Pan trinket procs though, I get to like 53% haste, and I like the dps for that short period of time.
haste and I the only time I tried NT in a fight I lost so many procs in that short interval.


Ya I am finding I miss alot of Brainfreeze procs. I would really like to see a change to FFB that gave it like a cooldown, nothing too long, but you were able to accumulate FFB charges so that when multiple Brain freeze procs happen they aren't wasted. The cooldown for FFB would be there so you wouldn't be too OP in PvP cause we all know PvPers would throw a fit if the frost mage threw 3 FFBs at them for 150k a piece.
03/31/2013 08:49 PMPosted by Rasthen
On a very related topic, how many targets does a fight need to have and in what configuration do they need to be for NT to outperform Frost Bomb or vice-versa?


With so many of the fights now being boss +adds it will change not only between fights but within a fight you may benefit from NT more than FB at the start but it may change when adds spawn or during mechanics which would need to be considered when picking the perfect bomb.

Personally i prefer LB but since they changed impact iv switched to NT. Its totally a personal choice i find i get more procs with NT and refresh it whenever i have to move which i cant do with FB.

In short stick with what works for you try out both for a decent amount of time and im sure you will feel one is better than the other even if its all psychological

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum