The increasing memory demands of raids

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Can you remember all the mechanics?


lol dont stand in stuff. and read what the people tell u to do in raid chat.... its not hard... thats all that anyone needs to do to remember LFR

LFR is easiest thing in the world.. thats why its all i do in the game... i dont have time to sit around and find a raid group on my realm and "learn" mechanics... i just wanna kill stuff easily..
I thought we were talking about computer memory... Lol... Like, I lag so hard on Sha of Anger,a and some of the new graphics effects take a huge toll on my computers processor and GPU...

But relating to the actual topic, I think the harder mechanics make it more fun.
You barely need to remember specific mechanics though. You pretty much can just immediately filter the majority into "Don't stand in this, stand in this, kill this add, etc" Would not more basic ideas like that fall under long term memory?
whats the point of a game if its not a challenge?
whats the point of a game if its not a challenge?


You could have a single mechanic that is ridiculously hard to execute and it would still be challenging, if perhaps more frustrating. Increasing the number of mechanics is only one way to add challenge.
If it hurts, don't stand in it.

If it buffs you, stand in it.

If there is a add, KILL IT!!!

As I see it not very hard to remember at all.
I usually dont remember anything until im actually fighting the boss. I could never tell you right now exactly everything a certain boss does and how to counter it, but as soon as i'm looking at its ugly face i suddenly remember everything that everybody is supposed to do.
Totally thought this was going to be about the physical demands on our computer's RAM.
Having taken psychology and neuroscience classes at Columbia I think your statement is a bit simplistic and short term memory doesn't apply here..Short term memory for the average person is 7 items (which is why telephone numbers are 7 digits) and anything stored in this memory is deleted as soon as it is used..If we relied on short term memory for this game then it would become impossible..You learn through reading and practice which eventually leads to new neuronal connections and increased hippocampal volume..Everything about this game is working memory being converted to long term through repitition..


Also having taken a physiology class, this is absolutely correct.

There's really no nice way of putting this.

There's a small handful of mechanics that any given role will deal with in LFR. Even ignoring that some of them are so basic that they should be placed into your long term memory (IE - the big add is probably important, kill him first and move out of the bad stuff) I really doubt any boss will have 5 meaningful abilities you have to care about, and again it's even less than that if you include the things that should be in long term memory or "WoW common sense".

Basically, what I'm saying - and this is with all due respect for everyone here. If you think it's mechanic overload in terms of knowing what to do - you're advocating that you are mentally challenged.

Personally.

I'd like to think too many people are jumping on a bandwagon saying that X mechanic is to intensive, which is the case in some of the posts. That's not what this thread is about, that's not what most people here are agreeing with.
Totally thought this was going to be about the physical demands on our computer's RAM.

Didn't we all? Of course the solution there is upgrade it. Oh wait that's the solution here too.


The human mind is an amazing thing, I still feel bad when I see the word cant in relation to very simple things.


It CAN be amazing, but it isn't always. The biggest problem with our world today is apathy. The brain is only amazing with the person with it, cares enough about something to try.


That pretty much sums up what i said earlier. It's not a skill cap, for the majority of people. It's a gives a !@#$ cap.

A lot of people mistake the two, and assume that people are skill capped, when in reality they'll try harder if they have to. But only as much as it takes to get the reward, and not an inch more.
As you mature in raiding, and if you are a moderately intelligent person, you move away from specific mechanics and start to function more on principles. Periodically, something comes along to shock those priciples (like the periodic apparent "bad" that actually does turn out to be a haste buff).

Second, memory isn't the only construct which can be used to manage these increasing demands. Rather, you have the collective memory of 10 people in active communication to assist in reminding you - so really only 1 in 10 people needs to remember something. On some of our more challenging encounters, I take on a role of calling out everything in advance. While I play with good raiders, it keeps attention and redirects focus live. Right now, I could probably script for you an entire heroic ragnaros encounter, stone cold from memory after reciting it so many times. Additionally, you have dbm (or my favorite, Big Wigs). Big Wigs provides me with simply timers. Timers tell me something is coming, and serves as a reminder to do something.

So, I have a lot to rely on besides memorizing encounters. I have behaviors I've trained myself to react to by default - agnostic to an encounter, I have others I rely on as a backup to my own memory, and I have an automated tool which provides timed warnings to me.
Second, memory isn't the only construct which can be used to manage these increasing demands. Rather, you have the collective memory of 10 people in active communication to assist in reminding you - so really only 1 in 10 people needs to remember something. On some of our more challenging encounters, I take on a role of calling out everything in advance. While I play with good raiders, it keeps attention and redirects focus live. Right now, I could probably script for you an entire heroic ragnaros encounter, stone cold from memory after reciting it so many times. Additionally, you have dbm (or my favorite, Big Wigs). Big Wigs provides me with simply timers. Timers tell me something is coming, and serves as a reminder to do something.


This. As long as you remember how to hear and where your boss timers are most of the memory is done for you.
While I agree that mechanic bloat seems to have gotten a little out of hand (try going through Sha of Fear's Dungeon Journal page... Wow) and recently took a side similar to yours, Liss, I have to disagree. My reason? Not everyone needs to pay attention to every mechanic. Less people need to pay attention to them all at the same time.

Let's take your Jin'rohk example:

DPS - Stand in grey pools. If you're targeted by Focused Lightning, run out of the pool. Get out of the pool during the storm.

Healers - Largely the same as DPS, though they have the single added complexity of knowing which tank actively has the boss.

Tanks - Tank the boss near, but not inside the grey pools and faced away from the raid. When you're debuffed, allow the other tank to taunt.

As a boss goes, this is a fairly simple fight. I realize that this was a cherry-picked example but once you separate mechanics out into which specific jobs need to worry about them, there really isn't that much for each person to do other than to perform their roles as normal to the best of their ability.

Looking at those descriptions you wouldn't even think there were so many bullet points in the Dungeon Journal (you cite 14). In fact, unless you expand the main bullet points, there are only five. The bullet points (many or few) are only to help keep information clear and concise for people learning fights without help from sources that aren't in-game. Blizzard could have just as easily written "Don't stand in the glowy puddles" or "Run away from the balls of lightning" but that isn't what the Dungeon Journal is for. It's to help, not teach.

The only other argument I have against this post is that it's predicated on the thought that every challenge (bosses, normally) should be killable the very first time you encounter them which simply isn't true. Even in LFR, it's clear that we're meant to learn encounters rather than walking in, reading the Dungeon Journal and having our way with the boss after a cursory 5 minute glance to the WoW version of Spark Notes. Repetition is part of the gameplay here, which you admit increases a player's ability to recognize and react to mechanics.
Your ideas regarding memory aren't exactly correct.

Short-term memory and working memory aren't really considered separate things.

Short-Term Memory IS Working Memory. Short-term memory was how us psychologists originally viewed the memory system hypothesis, but thanks to work of Baddeley and others, we now have replaced the idea of short-term memory with working memory.

The part you posted about 7 +/- 2 items is correct, but that's referring to how much information is assumed to be held in working memory, and even then it's not clear if it's specific to phonological loop, visual-spatial sketchpad, or the episodic buffer. I WISH it was as simple as you list it.

Also, you have overlooked the very important psychological principle of chunking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunking_(psychology)

People don't store individual facts individually, rather, they organize them and group them together in their long-term memory. Some posters have mentioned things like "principles vs. mechanics" and "main mechanics vs. sub-mechanics." I think that reflects them chunking the information, which then allows them to remember a very large number of items.
Well, Kael in TK was the 17 point boss in the data spreadsheet, just for the record. My argument wasn't that Kael in TK was easy, or that end-bosses have always been mechanically easy. In fact, it's not the maximum difficulty that shows the trends for a real increase over time, but the moving average for the raid dungeons over time that does (and to some extent, the minimum moves more linearly, as well, though there are outliers in that trend set, as well).


And the point you've missed here is that even if you completely gloss over how bad a measure "total number of mechanics" are for "complexity", you don't have a trend over time.

What you actually have is raids all over the place - because the number of mechanics really boil down to "How many add fights are there" or "We have 2 multi phase fights this tier instead of 1 last tier", and you're attemptnig to create a pattern out of random.

Solarian (post-rework) would have a longer DJ entry than Al'ar. She was less complex, and easier. But her DJ entry is longer because there are more adds, even though all you do with them is "Kill, assign an interrupt".
As you mature in raiding, and if you are a moderately intelligent person, you move away from specific mechanics and start to function more on principles. Periodically, something comes along to shock those priciples (like the periodic apparent "bad" that actually does turn out to be a haste buff).
This.
The first pull I saw of normal Dark Animus, I saw the Matter Swap debuff hit someone, and INSTANTLY reflexively dispelled it and murdered them. About a half second later, I knew that I'd been told not to do that exact thing.

That notion of 'dispel bad stuff!' is not a short-term memory thing, it is a basic concept. The trick is that in this fight, you have to get inside your own head and alter those instructions so that your working memory knows 'ok, Animus. Remember the added thing that happens on a dispel'.
So casuals aren't ruining the game? Is this the takeaway point? ;-)

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