unable to get a "fresh" LFR run

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times are in the 30 min to 1 hour range, would you rather que again, or get credit for the stuff you advertainly missed because someone else decided they didn't need loot off Boss 3 or 4?

Please provide solutions, not trolls, thank you for your input regardless.


So instead of a 30 min to 1 hour queue to get in you would rather spend a 30- 1 hour queue inside the instance to replace people that leave because everybody is clicking fresh run?

Queues times are immaterial to the argument. its separate issue and should not be matter in this context. Calling people trolls for correctly stating the facts just means your trolling yourself.
Not always. I once spent 50 mins in a queue for council, queued again for over an hour...and started on Horridon. In a raid waiting for 2 tanks.


Once, and i have never not got my fresh run when I requeud. 50 minutes in the queue as a healer, here is your fresh run sir.
04/09/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Krysdavar

This is BS. Blizz keeps saying this but it RARELY works. I did the first run of ToT they were on the 3rd boss.....I requeue again and then the next raid is on the second so I spent about a total of 120 minutes waiting in queue just to complete ONE wing.


I think this only works if you follow through with the run. ie...you enter LFR on boss 2, and complete the raid, receiving your Valor. However, if you join an LFR, say, on boss 2, and drop, thinking you'll then get a fresh one, this is incorrect.


This is exactly how it works. People that complain they got back to back partial runs didn't stick around for the full clear of their first run.
People that complain they got back to back partial runs didn't stick around for the full clear of their first run.


It's not a guaranteed fresh run.
04/09/2013 04:04 PMPosted by Rakin
You do know that if you finish a partially finished run, the next time you queue for it you'll get a fresh one?


Yes, yes... that's all fine and dandy, but it sets up a perpetual cycle of doing the last boss or two after sitting in queue, and then having to sit in queue even longer the second time and doing the first boss or two.

I've suggested the same thing the OP mentioned several times. "Prefer full run." It would serve no other function other than letting the queue system know who are 'wildcards' that are fine with fewer than all the bosses and who are not. That way, if there are two people right there back to back in the queue where one wants all the bosses and the other simply wants to be put further into the instance (like a valor farmer)... it knows the difference.

Nothing else would be different, and there would be no guarantee that you'll get what you want if there aren't enough people to fill out the needs of the queue otherwise. It's simply to tell who is fine with what if they had a choice at the time otherwise.

One thing to keep in mind is that the matchmaking system is already quite complex. It's already checking a lot of conditions, and prioritizing those conditions to get people into dungeons as quickly as possible.

The more you start to separate people by preference in the queue, even if the system is told to ignore the preference after X amount of time has been spent without being able to adequately fill (or backfill) a group, the more you dramatically inflate queue times for everyone. I totally agree that it can be annoying to often be placed in an in-progress dungeon, but the cons of many of the changes we've seen proposed by players would almost certainly outweigh that inconvenience.

We've also put in several measures to ease the burden a bit, without having to further complicate the matchmaking system and impact queue times. One thing I can appreciate about joining a raid in-progress is that I'm more likely to get the VP reward much more quickly. In situations where I care about the points more than the loot, I benefit from getting to the last boss sooner. And, if I do want loot and need the points, I can queue again and almost definitely get a fresh instance, kill the bosses I didn't yet, use bonus rolls for extra shots at the bosses I did kill (which will be even more effective in 5.3), and finish the dungeon for an extra VP bonus. If I decide I don't want to kill the same bosses again, someone else will have to suffer this same fate. ;p

Keep in mind, too, that the need to backfill raids spikes with the release of each new Throne of Thunder wing. Success rates in the new content aren't as high (it's new!), and so you're seeing more people give up on groups, perpetuating the need to backfill raids. What we've tried to do is still make it worth the average person's time to finish the dungeon, while ensuring the matchmaking system tries much harder to give you a fresh instance if you requeue after not getting one the first time.

It's really about striking that balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If a condition was set which allowed players to control whether they receive a fresh instance or not, wait times for everyone would be unacceptable, and potentially indefinite at odd hours of the day.
If you put in a 'queue for fresh run' option, then few raids would ever be completed.

Why? Because people are going to bail after they've killed the boss/es they wanted anyway, but nearly all the prospective replacements are also going to be trying to queue specifically for a fresh run.
Calling people trolls for correctly stating the facts just means your trolling yourself.


I am not labeling anyone a troll, I am pointing out that they are "trolling" by mocking points made in the discussion rather then being constructive. On the few posts I have deemed as "trolling" there was no valid point, just smart mouthed comments that had no valid point

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify this.
i just really hate waiting 50 minutes to get a non fresh run.... to only be given a 30 minute CD if i leave... if you've been in que longer than 30 minutes the CD should be waived.
04/09/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Thequay
I've suggested the same thing the OP mentioned several times. "Prefer full run." It would serve no other function other than letting the queue system know who are 'wildcards' that are fine with fewer than all the bosses and who are not. That way, if there are two people right there back to back in the queue where one wants all the bosses and the other simply wants to be put further into the instance (like a valor farmer)... it knows the difference.


Too many people would opt for that, and it would create problems. If a tank leaves, out of frustration, or gets voted out, or finds out his sister got hit by a car, whatever -- no replacement tank ever comes, because the vast majority picked "full run only."

The group eventually disbands and reques, and you wind up back at the first boss because all your tanks and healers selected "full run only." So now you're repeating a boss you get no benefit for. Except, dang it, after the boss, a tank leaves. The group disbands, and you requeue....

Get it? Replacements never come, because very few people want to wait in the queue for an hour just for one boss. This is why they removed the indicator that told you how many bosses were down in 4.3 -- it led to many groups never continuing after a vital role left.


See... just like in the last thread I posted in where this came up... people don't read.

No where did I say 'full run only.' I said 'prefer full run.' There wouldn't be any 'only' about it. You don't get to make the choice. You simply let the system know what you would prefer. Nothing else would change. It would affect nothing other than letting the queue system know the difference between 'only wanting valor' and 'trying to do them all the first time.'
I can queue again and almost definitely get a fresh instance


This isn't as "almost definitely" as you think. People have been complaining about continuously being stuck in partial runs, especially for the "harder" lfr wings since the removal of the notification went into effect. This has the largest impact on tanks as we're almost always the spot that winds up needing to be filled in back log raids due to people being willing to pull without full healers/DPS, but rarely with only one tank.
04/09/2013 05:29 PMPosted by Zarhym


Yes, yes... that's all fine and dandy, but it sets up a perpetual cycle of doing the last boss or two after sitting in queue, and then having to sit in queue even longer the second time and doing the first boss or two.

I've suggested the same thing the OP mentioned several times. "Prefer full run." It would serve no other function other than letting the queue system know who are 'wildcards' that are fine with fewer than all the bosses and who are not. That way, if there are two people right there back to back in the queue where one wants all the bosses and the other simply wants to be put further into the instance (like a valor farmer)... it knows the difference.

Nothing else would be different, and there would be no guarantee that you'll get what you want if there aren't enough people to fill out the needs of the queue otherwise. It's simply to tell who is fine with what if they had a choice at the time otherwise.

One thing to keep in mind is that the matchmaking system is already quite complex. It's already checking a lot of conditions, and prioritizing those conditions to get people into dungeons as quickly as possible.

The more you start to separate people by preference in the queue, even if the system is told to ignore the preference after X amount of time has been spent without being able to adequately fill (or backfill) a group, the more you dramatically inflate queue times for everyone. I totally agree that it can be annoying to often be placed in an in-progress dungeon, but the cons of many of the changes we've seen proposed by players would almost certainly outweigh that inconvenience.

We've also put in several measures to ease the burden a bit, without having to further complicate the matchmaking system and impact queue times. One thing I can appreciate about joining a raid in-progress is that I'm more likely to get the VP reward much more quickly. In situations where I care about the points more than the loot, I benefit from getting to the last boss sooner. And, if I do want loot and need the points, I can queue again and almost definitely get a fresh instance, kill the bosses I didn't yet, use bonus rolls for extra shots at the bosses I did kill (which will be even more effective in 5.3), and finish the dungeon for an extra VP bonus. If I decide I don't want to kill the same bosses again, someone else will have to suffer this same fate. ;p

Keep in mind, too, that the need to backfill raids spikes with the release of each new Throne of Thunder wing. Success rates in the new content aren't as high (it's new!), and so you're seeing more people give up on groups, perpetuating the need to backfill raids. What we've tried to do is still make it worth the average person's time to finish the dungeon, while ensuring the matchmaking system tries much harder to give you a fresh instance if you requeue after not getting one the first time.

It's really about striking that balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If a condition was set which allowed players to control whether they receive a fresh instance or not, wait times for everyone would be unacceptable, and potentially indefinite at odd hours of the day.


But for those of us that may be limited on time and need the loot that can drop our raid time is used for the convenience of the others in that group that needed a backfill and we have no shot at the things WE needed it for. Some of us do NOT have the time for double queues.

At least before it showed us if it was in progress and we could choose not to enter if we did not want to deal with that.
04/09/2013 05:29 PMPosted by Zarhym


Yes, yes... that's all fine and dandy, but it sets up a perpetual cycle of doing the last boss or two after sitting in queue, and then having to sit in queue even longer the second time and doing the first boss or two.

I've suggested the same thing the OP mentioned several times. "Prefer full run." It would serve no other function other than letting the queue system know who are 'wildcards' that are fine with fewer than all the bosses and who are not. That way, if there are two people right there back to back in the queue where one wants all the bosses and the other simply wants to be put further into the instance (like a valor farmer)... it knows the difference.

Nothing else would be different, and there would be no guarantee that you'll get what you want if there aren't enough people to fill out the needs of the queue otherwise. It's simply to tell who is fine with what if they had a choice at the time otherwise.

One thing to keep in mind is that the matchmaking system is already quite complex. It's already checking a lot of conditions, and prioritizing those conditions to get people into dungeons as quickly as possible.

The more you start to separate people by preference in the queue, even if the system is told to ignore the preference after X amount of time has been spent without being able to adequately fill (or backfill) a group, the more you dramatically inflate queue times for everyone. I totally agree that it can be annoying to often be placed in an in-progress dungeon, but the cons of many of the changes we've seen proposed by players would almost certainly outweigh that inconvenience.

We've also put in several measures to ease the burden a bit, without having to further complicate the matchmaking system and impact queue times. One thing I can appreciate about joining a raid in-progress is that I'm more likely to get the VP reward much more quickly. In situations where I care about the points more than the loot, I benefit from getting to the last boss sooner. And, if I do want loot and need the points, I can queue again and almost definitely get a fresh instance, kill the bosses I didn't yet, use bonus rolls for extra shots at the bosses I did kill (which will be even more effective in 5.3), and finish the dungeon for an extra VP bonus. If I decide I don't want to kill the same bosses again, someone else will have to suffer this same fate. ;p

Keep in mind, too, that the need to backfill raids spikes with the release of each new Throne of Thunder wing. Success rates in the new content aren't as high (it's new!), and so you're seeing more people give up on groups, perpetuating the need to backfill raids. What we've tried to do is still make it worth the average person's time to finish the dungeon, while ensuring the matchmaking system tries much harder to give you a fresh instance if you requeue after not getting one the first time.

It's really about striking that balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If a condition was set which allowed players to control whether they receive a fresh instance or not, wait times for everyone would be unacceptable, and potentially indefinite at odd hours of the day.


Have you guys thought about making LFR 40 man so that more dps get in to less runs? Just buff mob health a little maybe also require a couple more heals? Im sure there would have to be more tuning than this the very least.
The shortage is of tanks and heals meaning that dps are feeling the brunt of it through longer queue times. By making the raid comp 2 tanks 8 heals and rest dps that puts an extra 2 healers and 13 dps in each run thus shortening queue times for the dps and to a lesser extent heals.

Would this create more problems than it fixes? I haven't really thought this through (not mu job to) but its an idea I'm curious if you guys have thrown around in the office.
We could always just take RF away, then you wouldn't have to worry about it. It is a non-issue imo. Finish the run, queue up for another. It is that simple. As Zarhym says, the system itself is doing what it can. It isn't as easy as putting a fresh run only, that would push queues up immensely, then you would come back and gripe about that.
The only real solution to this problem is to make raid difficulty scale to the amount of players inside, from 15 to 25 people, that way, almost all raids will be completable with the amount of players there are and back filling wont be as necessary.
Some of us do NOT have the time for double queues.

If a player drops group for whatever reason or you need to kick someone for being a jerk or AFK or whatever (one of which happens on almost every run), your wait time for a replacement will be far longer than that of a second queue if everyone has the option to opt out of filling in for your partial run.
Going to be simple with you Zarhym, The LFR finder system blows. The loot system is awful. My brother COMPLETED 5, that's right FIVE, unfinished LFRs for the SAME ONE. Only on his 6th try did he finally get a fresh run.

Waiting 30 mins AT BEST to an average of 60 mins a few times a week just to be able to down 1 boss is a joke and many people don't have time for sitting around. You said that people had priority for a "fresh run" after completing an unfinished one. So? where is that?
It's really about striking that balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If a condition was set which allowed players to control whether they receive a fresh instance or not, wait times for everyone would be unacceptable, and potentially indefinite at odd hours of the day.


I understand that, as well as knowing that if a system is game-able, people will game it.

What I have to admit that I don't know is how complicated the system is behind the scenes. As you mention, simply adding a flag to differentiate those wanting valor and those wanting a full raid could wreck things.

I've actually given it some thought and all of the really cool things I can come up with... I can think of a way to game them. Hence, the only thing I could think of that wouldn't create problems with what I know of the system would be the 'prefer full or partial' flag.

Meh. In any event, I'm pretty happy with the way the thing works now. I was just thinking of a simple refinement that might help out with streamlining things.

Thanks for the reply, also. :)
I want to clarify, as we seem to be drifting away from the topic I originally posted about. It was not so much about que times as it was that getting a full or fresh run does not happen anymore in LFR, causing players that want loot from the bosses to que multiple times.
It seems that no one seems to be reading past the 1st option I put on the OP, so I am reposting them here.

2) Give replacement tanks the option to get a "free roll" for each boss that was downed prior to there arrival.
-Example : Tank A leaves raid after boss 1 and 2 are down. Tank B comes in and downs the remaining 2 bosses with the raid. At the end of the raid, the tank receives the option to roll for a chance at each Boss 1s and Boss 2s LFR loot tables.
- To keep people from attempting to game the system, this "free roll" system would also take into account what bosses in LFR you have down this current week. In the example above, Tank A comes back online and reques, and starts at Boss 3. Tank A finishes the raid. Tank A will not get the "free roll" option because he has already recieved loot from Boss 1 and 2.

3) Put all the bosses LFR loot tables into one big loot table
- This would keep players from farming certain bosses
- Do not award loot until the player leaves the raid or the last boss is defeated, then that player receives a roll for each boss he/she downed.
- option 2 above could easily be added.

With this reposted here, I would like to draw more attention to them, as I believe a combination of the 2 would be the solution the issue.


One thing to keep in mind is that the matchmaking system is already quite complex. It's already checking a lot of conditions, and prioritizing those conditions to get people into dungeons as quickly as possible.

The more you start to separate people by preference in the queue, even if the system is told to ignore the preference after X amount of time has been spent without being able to adequately fill (or backfill) a group, the more you dramatically inflate queue times for everyone. I totally agree that it can be annoying to often be placed in an in-progress dungeon, but the cons of many of the changes we've seen proposed by players would almost certainly outweigh that inconvenience.


If you would elaborate on the cons of my proposed solutions, I would be much abliged.


We've also put in several measures to ease the burden a bit, without having to further complicate the matchmaking system and impact queue times. One thing I can appreciate about joining a raid in-progress is that I'm more likely to get the VP reward much more quickly. In situations where I care about the points more than the loot, I benefit from getting to the last boss sooner. And, if I do want loot and need the points, I can queue again and almost definitely get a fresh instance


Very rarely do I, or many of the players whom I play with, get a fresh instance in the above case.


Keep in mind, too, that the need to backfill raids spikes with the release of each new Throne of Thunder wing. Success rates in the new content aren't as high (it's new!), and so you're seeing more people give up on groups, perpetuating the need to backfill raids. What we've tried to do is still make it worth the average person's time to finish the dungeon, while ensuring the matchmaking system tries much harder to give you a fresh instance if you requeue after not getting one the first time.


My recommendation of a combination of the 2 above methods would deffinately solve this problem


It's really about striking that balance between being accommodating, and being efficient. If a condition was set which allowed players to control whether they receive a fresh instance or not, wait times for everyone would be unacceptable, and potentially indefinite at odd hours of the day.


Again, I believe my solutions above would achieve this. If I am wrong, please correct me. My intent is not to rip what you said apart, but to respond piece by piece as your response was pretty long and covered a lot of different parts.
I don't have an issue with being placed into a run in progress. What I do have an issue with is getting 90 valor for the incomplete run that you were forced into, and needing to re-queue for the same LFR again.. for only 45 valor. If I am going to stay and re-kill the boss that I already killed, the valor reward should be at least equivalent to a first run.

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