Heroic Scenarios = Heroic Dungeons

General Discussion
If we can have heroic scenarios, we can have real heroic dungeons (actual heroic dungeons, not normal dungeons branded heroic) and more of them. (Challenge stopwatcher dungeons are not a substitute for actual new, meaningful 5 mans).

Why isn't Blizz putting out actual heroic dungeons?
Because a real Heroic dungeon requires threat, CC, teamwork in general. With tank vengeance replacing actual threat, every dungeon is reduced to an AOE zergfest.

Blizzard paid a lot of programmers and designers millions of dollars to change the game into something that was incredibly easy for new players to play, but still fun for veterans. It failed miserably. Within the current, oversimplified mechanics, real Heroics just aren't possible.

In order to make heroics again, the designers would have to go back to Blizzard and say, "Hey, you know those millions of dollars you paid us to change the game? It's not working out so well, would you mind terribly paying us a few million more to change things back?"

Blizzard, "You're fired."

It's going to have to get worse before it get's better.

On an up note, Blizzard has apparently, finally, gotten the message about just how fubar things are getting, and has rehired the lead developer of the Burning Crusade expansion. I hope it is true.
(Challenge stopwatcher dungeons are not a substitute for actual new, meaningful 5 mans).


I'd say you're wrong. The Challenge modes require everything that 'hard' heroics require(d).

And before anyone brings up the Cataclysm heroics, those were a matter of several things:

1) Immense amounts of trash, some with instant wipe mechanics
2) In some cases, overtuned bosses
3) Length though that can be attributed to several things up to and including player 'malaise'.
4) Unforgiving bosses that, barring having a solid computer, had one shot mechanics and made life miserable for anyone that didn't have a solid rig.

Besides, with Blizzard's new and shiny 'more content faster' mentality, it makes no sense to have 'hard heroics' anymore which form an arbitrary wall that causes player frustration and halts progression.
If we can have heroic scenarios, we can have real heroic dungeons (actual heroic dungeons, not normal dungeons branded heroic) and more of them. (Challenge stopwatcher dungeons are not a substitute for actual new, meaningful 5 mans).

Why isn't Blizz putting out actual heroic dungeons?


Blizzard pretty much said they want to devote more of their talent towards LFR.
I hope Blizzard add heroics in the next expansion instead of disregarding them completely, I despise of scenarios with a burning passion, they're so unrewarding and repetitive.
I hope Blizzard add heroics in the next expansion instead of disregarding them completely, I despise of scenarios with a burning passion, they're so unrewarding and repetitive.


One can say the same for heroics once you're run them and farmed them on one toon. I have several lvl 90 alts I haven't touched this expansion because I have no desire to go through the 'farm process' over and over and over and over.

They do make good profession alts though.
The onus should be on the player: get better or get out.


We have do, to some degree, disagree on that.

And we have to do so for this reason:

If players WANT difficult content, they already have access to it:

1) Challenge modes
2) Normal and Hardmode raiding
3) Rated PvP
4) Soon to be Heroic Scenarios

And if the onus is 'get better or get out', you're looking at a dead game.
Players might want difficult and rewarding content but only with a few close friends (dungeons) over a short period of time.

That's a big difference between 10 and 25 man raiding ( too many, too hard, too long) and LFR ( too many, too easy and too long, often).

I can tell players want dungeons to fill the gap because literally almost EVERYONE I chat with says so and every comment that says "more dungeons" that I make is strongly highly rated, and Blizz has to ignore dozens of questions a day asking for dungeons and making excuses.
4) Unforgiving bosses that, barring having a solid computer, had one shot mechanics and made life miserable for anyone that didn't have a solid rig.


I played on a toaster until 4.2 came out and I had no issue in the 4.0/4.1 heroics when they were new. At most, I had to up the particle density to fair so I could see the maze on Venoxis, which is hardly anything. The other three points were just subjective arguments.

4) Soon to be Heroic Scenarios


Heroic scenarios are tuned about as hard as TotJS or Stormstout Brewery are in heroic dungeons. They're really not that hard, at all, but you will be needing 3 DPS to get the bonus awards.
Do you really want to bring back the horror that was the Hour of Twilight dungeons?
DO YOU?!
I can tell players want dungeons to fill the gap because literally almost EVERYONE I chat with says so and every comment that says "more dungeons" that I make is strongly highly rated


MORE dungeons is one thing and I like it. However, MORE does not always equal 'difficult'. And let's be perfectly honest, what happened last time Blizzard gave us 'filler dungeons' with trolls (which would be appropriate for this patch)? People HOWLED in outrage.

Be that as it may, whether or not we want more dungeons, Blizzard has given their reasons for not including more dungeons this expansion and preferring, instead, to focus on overworld content, raids and heroic scenarios. And frankly, I think it's a happy medium given that heroic scenarios are going to require premade parties. So you get that 'old school' feel of premade parties who you CAN rely on along with quick, rewarding content.
04/20/2013 06:58 AMPosted by Huggywuggles
I can tell players want dungeons to fill the gap because literally almost EVERYONE I chat with says so and every comment that says "more dungeons" that I make is strongly highly rated


MORE dungeons is one thing and I like it. However, MORE does not always equal 'difficult'. And let's be perfectly honest, what happened last time Blizzard gave us 'filler dungeons' with trolls (which would be appropriate for this patch)? People HOWLED in outrage.

Be that as it may, whether or not we want more dungeons, Blizzard has given their reasons for not including more dungeons this expansion and preferring, instead, to focus on overworld content, raids and heroic scenarios. And frankly, I think it's a happy medium given that heroic scenarios are going to require premade parties. So you get that 'old school' feel of premade parties who you CAN rely on along with quick, rewarding content.

Blizz's reasons for not including more dungeons are laziness, garbage and crap.

Blizz needs to get back to work on new dungeons.
Blizz's reasons for not including more dungeons are laziness, garbage and crap.Blizz needs to get back to work on new dungeons.


Let me ask you this, would you rather have interesting and mechanically challenging raids or more five mans?

I can only speak for myself but even in LFR where some of the mechanics can be punishing for those who don't know (think Lei Shen and Durumu and possibly, though more hilariously, Elegon), or more five mans? The teams for both are the same teams.

Remember, five mans are MEANT to be stepping stones INTO end game, not end game itself. And given the way the Legendary quest is structured this expansion, not having more five mans keeps even older raids more relevant particularly where it regards people running alts.
04/20/2013 05:46 AMPosted by Dliver
If we can have heroic scenarios, we can have real heroic dungeons


No thanks, I prefer having scenarios which allows for more raid content.
Remember, five mans are MEANT to be stepping stones INTO end game, not end game itself. And given the way the Legendary quest is structured this expansion, not having more five mans keeps even older raids more relevant particularly where it regards people running alts.


What you lack in stature you more than make for in wisdom!
04/20/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Judgernaught
If we can have heroic scenarios, we can have real heroic dungeons


No thanks, I prefer having scenarios which allows for more raid content.

I doubt there's any more raid content than there otherwise would have been, especially since they diverted crazy resources into the scenarios and unprecedented numbers of dailies.
04/20/2013 07:10 AMPosted by Dliver


No thanks, I prefer having scenarios which allows for more raid content.

I doubt there's any more raid content than there otherwise would have been, especially since they diverted crazy resources into the scenarios and unprecedented numbers of dailies.


Wrong.

Scenario development and overworld development (Dailies) are two entirely different teams from the raid/dungeon team which are one and the same.
I doubt there's any more raid content than there otherwise would have been, especially since they diverted crazy resources into the scenarios and unprecedented numbers of dailies.


You may doubt it but that is what they claim and it makes sense because almost everything they need for scenarios already exists in the game. Compared to a dungeon which must be made from scratch. Same thing applies to dailies.
They're not equivalent to dungeons. They're equivalent to phasing group quests.

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