Resto Druids, Need to be thought out more.

Druid
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Hello! I'm George. I'm a resto druid that has been playing from the end of cata to current day MoP, in the beginning of the expansion druids were weak healers, and going into 5.2 the developers went ahead and buffed out total healing by 10%. When this was implemented I decided to come back from my break. I left at 2/4 ToES because I didn't like the drastic difference between classes as HPS. Yes the healing buff helped, but only by a very little. The problem with resto druids are as follows:

1) We have no niche that makes us stand out from other healers.
2) Absorbs from Paladins/Priests eat our heals.
3) We have no immediate healing aoe spells compared to ALL healing classes.
4) We have no passive mana regen compared to other classes
5) T14 is currently being chosen over t15 for the 4 set bonus.
6) Mushrooms are bulky and not efficient.
7) Efflorescence is too small.

Before you go onto say I'm picky and I ask of too much, I want to clarify that these are all things that me and many druids have discussed. I'll go into detail with each corresponding issue below.

1). Let me Clarify

Disc priest and Mist weaver monks can both damage and put out a high amount of healing, when they are able to do 60k-70k dps AND heal a high amount of hps more than druids, it makes you wonder why anyone would ever want a resto druid in their raid comp.

Pallys have high damage mitigation, and large amounts of blanketing.

As for shamans they have many Healing CD's, and an amazing mastery. Shaman's, are too lacking in healing meters on fights, and blizzard also gave them a 20% healing buff.

We continue to ignore the fact that just buffing a higher amount of healing will fix the games issues. It wont. It didn't work with the druids 10% and it surely wont with the shamans 20%.

As for the druid niche, yes we are mobile healers and on fights such as Ji-kun and Megaera and are able to capitalize on it. But,what I suggest, is to further push our mobile healing and strengthen it. Some ideas I see fit would be.

Tree of Life (ToL), not a talent- ToL is what has really defined a resto druid as a resto druid and to have players favoring Soul of the forest (SoTF) over ToL because of a set bonus is absurd, it narrows the druids flexible and free rotation into a defined one (Using a Swift mend followed by a Wild growth) and starts to take away from the core versatility of a resto druid. What I suggest is removing Tree of Life from incarnation and adding something in its place, maybe summoning celestials such as cranes on the twins consorts, that would run through the raid and heal any one in its way. Regardless of this, i truly believe that ToL should always be a defined trait of a resto druid. Raids should be able to capitalize on the movement and versatility for high movement phases of a fight.

The 10% healing buff be buffed to 20% but only when the caster is moving, once again making druids feel needed on fights. This could be a glyph or a talent.

Dream of Cenarius- Either have a glyph reducing the cast time of wrath and mana cost to help buff our hots OR change the talent to have Moonfires or if i dare say (bring back Insect swarm) buff our next healing spell.

Also with Dream of Cenarius as of now, we can wrath when the time is right to buff our next heal, but the problem with resto druids we are constantly using a GCD for hot blanketing, lifebloom refreshing, placing shrooms , etc. So we can not capitalize on that 30% to our next heal when we would like. So i suggest allowing the buff to stack, to a set amount, maybe 2-3 stacks of the buff so that we can plan ahead for incoming damage.

Anything that could buff our lvl 90 talent choices is what i ask of, as of now, they are very anti-climatic and nothing seems to be worth the thought. Heart of the wild, the static int is nice, but 45's of dpsing and needing to heal at the same time is not compared to Discpriest/WW consistent dps.

Dream of cenarius -just not enough time or mana to be able to buff our healing spells

Natures vigil- Nice low CD but not enough healing increase to make it a level 90 worthy talent.

Maybe switch natures vigil and incarnation talent levels and change the benefits of incarnation and it would be much more attractive.

2) Our heals are being absorbed and sniped to quickly for our HoTs to make a difference.

With Pallies and Disc priests being the top healers this patch and having nearly no overhealing it once again makes druids a weak choice for a raid group. If absorbs are mitigating all the incoming damage and nothing to heal arrives, our overhealing shoots through the roof from our rejuvenation. Blizzards fix at this was to charge our mushrooms up and use that over healing later in the fight. This just doesnt work. Sure on some fights where there are static stack points they can be used, but having 3 separate GCDS to place them and not being able to move charged ones without having to recharge new ones just makes it unbelievably bulky and annoying.

3) rather than or in addition to shrooms, I suggest adding a new spell that provides a direct healing spell such as Chain heal, prayer, holy radiance, etc, that is for druids. Yes, i know druids are meant for HoTs but with the way the game is going HoTs are less desirable. Maybe like a leaf cone or a solar beam blessing spell that heals targets instantly, this would be on a charged CD So depending on our hot ticks overheal is when you will be able to use the fully charged version again. Either a cast time or light of dawn cast type would be cool.

Also , WG could be smarter. It does not target fully healthed individuals so you cannot use it efficiently if only 2 people are takign damage, this would help charge your solarbeam/mushrooms.

4) we have no passive mana regen-
simple fix, tying it into dream of cenarious would be cool, maintaing a insect swarm/moonfire of targets, or wrath casts to... increase healing, mana, and damage to compete with other classes.

5) with SoTF and T14 being so strong together people don't want to let go of the thing that last helped them actually do decent HPS, I would say the t15 set favors 25 mans over 10 mans, and this should be changed. Also the rejuvenation 4 set healing increase only helps charge our near-useless shrooms more, once again adding a new spell suchs as a solar beam blessing spell that heals targets instantly would make this worth more than the t14 set.

6) mushrooms are bulky, as stated many times throughout the thread. Cannot move charged ones, only useful on static stack points, 3 seperate GCD's making the mushrooms into mini treants that you can attach to players or move with commands would be so cool and much more useful.

7) to compete with stacking aoe heals Efflorescence should be larger to help reach more targets.

Once again as I stated, I may seem very picky, but im a druid lover and as of right now i cannot deal with the drastic differences between healers. When a class becomes unfavorable because it cannot compete with other classes, that's when its time to re-think things. Please go ahead and discuss, maybe somethings will change if we show we care enough!

Thanks,
George
To those that made it through the whole thing. /clap
Just to clarify, we are so far in with absorbs that we cannot go back, that's why we need to further alter our overhealing to more than just mushrooms.
04/07/2013 06:17 PMPosted by George
1) We have no niche that makes us stand out from other healers.


I thought that it was understood that Druids were excellent raid healers? Very few healers 'stand out' from the rest in terms of a specific niche.

2) Absorbs from Paladins/Priests eat our heals.


Only sometimes? But that's an issue that affects everyone and isn't impartial to Druids.

3) We have no immediate healing aoe spells compared to ALL healing classes.


This is the most salient point that you have, but doesn't Healing Mushrooms have burst healing?

4) We have no passive mana regen compared to other classes


You have a passive mana regen mechanic: Clearcasting.

5) T14 is currently being chosen over t15 for the 4 set bonus.
6) Mushrooms are bulky and not efficient.
7) Efflorescence is too small.


The rest of these are pretty interesting concerns though, I think.
In regards to Clearcasting, I don't believe this procs nearly enough to be considered a Mana passive. When I think Clearcasting, I automatically assume ToL, because it procs based off our lifebloom ticks, and with druids not speccing into ToL It takes away from the mana conservation use of Clearcasting. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, yes we have clear casting but it is not near the other classes mana regen.

I don't believe Resto druids are even close to known as great raid healers now, just go out and look at WoL, the top healers are flooded with everything but druids.

Mushrooms do burst,but, in order to fully charge 3 mushrooms it take about 4-5 rejuvenations, and only fills up based off over-healing. and unless they are fights like jin, meg, where there are static stack points, its near impossible to heal the way you'd like to. Not to mention if you move the shrooms, you lose the charged/concentrated healing in them. It's just not efficient.

And about the absorbs, yes you're right that druids aren't the only ones being affected, but we are the ones affected the most since over 90% of our healing is hots.

I really did enjoy you're commenting though, Do you play a resto druid?
Clear casting is a great point @practical. Maybe they could have clear-casting procs based off dots such as moon-fire (or bring back insect swarm), this could help with the dps of resto druids, the mana conservation, and the use of actual heals aside from HoT's. Great point!
1. What Practical said...we are good in raid healing when there is raid healing to do. I know for my raid group (pally, disc, druid, being me), I am last on most fights where there is little or really spread out aoe dmg, but fights like Council where theres constant aoe raid dmg, I'm normally top, with rejuv and WG taking 1 and 2 of my heals.

2. While absorbs do suck...they cant absorb everything all the time, so we are there to back them up. Sadly though, we are BACKUP, in that case.

3. Shrooms, WG (sorta crappy instaaoe), Tranq (pretty big AOE heal to me, although its not like PoH)

4. We have clearcasting, innervates (if used at right time, can get 2-3 per fight), and with all the absorbs priests/pallys do, you can stand there spinning around regening mana, or spam nourish on the tanks to keep busy.

5. T14 bonus is pretty nice, especially coupled with SoTF, but no one said you have to use either one. Yes it might be better, but its not going to make your heals suck any worse then you are claiming them to be. The moment I was able to drop t14 or a TOT drop, i did, and didnt have any issues using SOTF and SM/WG. Timing is off, yes, but you gotta know when you need to use them, instead of just spamming them on CD.

6. Mushrooms are bulky as hell, cant move fully charged ones, and take FOREVER to charge in during a fight where constant dmg is happening and they can really be used. But they have their place. I use them on Jon rokhs aoe thing, Horridon for last part as a tank CD, Megeara for stacking, Ji-kun for the aoe thing, prob will use for Animus on the tanks after adds are dead (attempting this week). Would i like to use them more, maybe, but im not missing out, rejuv has picked up its slack.

7. Agree 100%. Healing Rain is like 2x bigger and is 2x the amount of targets. T15 bonus adds 1 target, big whoop.....make it inc the size by like 5 yards as well, then we talking a good bonus.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Throne_of_Thunder/hps/

Generally when druids are in the top ten they are still rocking t14 heroic and use SoTF on CD. The teir14 vs t15 is just straight discouraging, going 12/12 and raiding 3 times a week isn't rewarding when you're using last teir's gear...
Our only source of immediate aoe healing shouldn't be our only 3 min CD since we are seeing people resort to SoTF. Mushrooms are just... bad, swiftmend doesnt even count considering how small it is.

When ever you see a top druid on WoL, GENERALLY they are rolling SoTF. Otherwise they have a raid comp that allows higher healing output.

"Just to clarify, we are so far in with absorbs that we cannot go back, that's why we need to further alter our overhealing to more than just mushrooms." If they change what our overhealing from shields does to something other than mushrooms, then I truly believe we can compete with the shielding.
Aside from using over healing to put out more healing, maybe implement a spell that you could charge up for mana, lets say its called replenish - 5% of total overhealing to a maximum of 300k will be used to replenish the casters mana. On a 1.5 minute cooldown, 15k mana every 1.5 mins doesnt sound overwhelming and it would help cut down on the redundancy of rejuvenation blanketing.
I tried to take most of you points seriously but after looking at your haste level, talented Dream of Cenarius and that glyph of rejuv I must admit it's much more difficult.

5) T14 is currently being chosen over t15 for the 4 set bonus.
6) Mushrooms are bulky and not efficient.
7) Efflorescence is too small.


These are concerns along with nourish and healing touch and yes in-between WG but I wouldn't even consider your points about other healers effects upon our tool-kit. It's the nature of druid healing to OH and at time to be absorbed. But that doesn't by itself mean that we're 'in a bad place' because it's not true. The is indeed some disparity between 25m and 10 to be sure but it's rare that any class finds itself in that perfect spot (unless you were a disc priest in 5.1).


I'm in the middle of theorycrafting, don't mind my build.
But, as far as I can tell, from the t14 paired with SoTF Resto druids are being numbed down and don't offer the utility of a priest/Paladin. Ever since Bubbles and absorption have become large, it seems as if they have tried to solve the over healing issue with something new, all I'm implying are the current shrooms are not the solution
Never said they were bad, just need more time invested in them to make us valuable again.
04/07/2013 08:56 PMPosted by George
But, as far as I can tell, from the t14 paired with SoTF Resto druids are being numbed down and don't offer the utility of a priest/Paladin.


There is a real concern that most progression druids are indeed keeping their heroic 4pc t14 and not even considering switching until heroic t15. I wish I had that 'problem'.

We have had this issue in a previous tier. It's pretty much the same deal with trinkets - namely heroic 2/2 Spirits of the Son as was Shard of Woe.

I honestly think you need to stop bringing up other healer classes when discussing resto druids. It doesn't help our cause arguing from that point of view. Considering I raid with a pally I know what you're talking about but it has little bearing in the virtual real world.
Using other classes as comparison is very important, since the game is meant to be balanced. Sure we use different abilities/techniques/ and bring different niches to the table, but we are meant to balanced.
04/07/2013 06:17 PMPosted by George
1) We have no niche that makes us stand out from other healers.

Druids are the most mobile healer in the game. Rejuv is instant cast and if you have the appropriate amount of spirit you can blanket several targets. Highly mobile healing is a niche. That doesn't mean you should ignore refreshing Harmony while going mobile. When necessary you'll have to stop and hardcast a direct heal to keep Harmony active.

04/07/2013 06:17 PMPosted by George
Dream of Cenarius- Either have a glyph reducing the cast time of wrath and mana cost to help buff our hots OR change the talent to have Moonfires or if i dare say (bring back Insect swarm) buff our next healing spell.

Not every talent is optimal for every situation. In PVE DoC isn't very attractive because the time and mana cost. In PVP it is very useful.

04/07/2013 06:17 PMPosted by George
change the benefits of incarnation and it would be much more attractive.

Incarnation is highly attractive as is. The healing that can be produced during ToL is massive and allows a lot of mana conservation.

04/07/2013 08:01 PMPosted by George
In regards to Clearcasting, I don't believe this procs nearly enough to be considered a Mana passive. When I think Clearcasting, I automatically assume ToL, because it procs based off our lifebloom ticks, and with druids not speccing into ToL It takes away from the mana conservation use of Clearcasting. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, yes we have clear casting but it is not near the other classes mana regen.

You must not have a good LB uptime because I certainly see many OOC procs and I don't use Incarnation. Maybe you're not using the right spell for your OOC procs either. I see you're using Glyph of Rejuvenation. That glyph is worthless in my opinion since the only use for Nourish is to refresh LB. Your only target for Nourish should be the tank with aggro and a LB stack. If you used Glyph of Regrowth instead and used OOC procs for Regrowth casts you conserve a lot of mana, get large heals and apply Living Seed. Clearcasting is a significant mana conservation passive as long as you have a good LB uptime and use procs quickly. Since OOC doesn't have charges and has no ICD it's possible to get procs one after another. Consume the procs quickly. Even if no one is very damaged you should Regrowth the tank to apply Living Seed and refresh Harmony.

I do believe you should use as much Spirit as necessary to feel comfortable, but you have an obnoxious amount. 16,259 MP5 is a lot and if you need that much to avoid running out of mana it's symptomatic of an underlying problem with your spell usage. Are you afraid of using Innervate? Once the fight starts you should use it as soon as you hit 80% mana and keep using it as soon as its available if your mana is below 81%.

You also have a ridiculous amount of excess Haste at the cost of reduced Mastery. You're sacrificing 7.6% Mastery to grant an extra tick to three spells when boosting all spells would be much more beneficial. The extra tick for LB is mostly meaningless because outside of ToL you'll be refreshing it before all ticks are applied. For Regrowth you should be using the glyph that removes the HoT component. The only spell that ends up benefiting is Wild Growth, but that extra tick isn't worth the 3685 stat points you've spent to get it.

Since your setup is so far from optimized it's hard to put much value in your observations. A lot of spells will seem to be in need of attention when your Mastery rating is below 14%. It should be closer to 25% with your gear level. Having Mastery as low as you do is a huge self induced nerf to your healing. Basically all of your healing spells are 11% less powerful than they should be due to your gem, enchant and reforging choices.
Tell me how a 10% healing buff is helpful if 90% of our heals are hots, with absorbs blocking hots and making them overheal. ESPECIALLY when that overhealing is being tuned and directed towards something as obsolete as mushrooms?

All I want is for ToL to not be a talent, a different output for our overhealing whether that be damage, mana regen, or a instant aoe heal. Our Efflorescence to be larger to the scales of a Healing Rain, and for teir to be more valuable.

All of these issues are comparative to other classes, if people are not comparing themselves to other classes and acknowledging the large disparities and niches between classes, then they are not maximizing their knowledge and drive to become better.

Comparing classes is a very important point imo.
I'm not sure what you're implying about my stat weights, at the moment, like i said,
"I'm in the middle of theorycrafting, don't mind my build."

I did acknowledge that our niche is mobility, and ToL contributed to that. I think to make us valuable again, we need to vamp up our mobile heals and Take ToL out of incarnation and set it as a spell separate from talents. Since so many people are set on SoTF as of now, raids are losing out on ToL. I'd like to see natures vigil and incarnation switched on the talent tree and a different state of incarnation be used.

As for the Glyph of Regrowth, the spell crits plenty, and swiftmend can be used immediately after with the regrowth HoT. I use Glyph of Rejuvenation because as of now any overhealing is pointless, mushrooms just aren't worth it. So I rely on Nourish as a filler for actual healing.

Tell me how more HoT tick healing from mastery is helpful when a majority is being absorbed? I've spent well over 3k gold testing out new things, and to be critical of me and my output without playing with me is absurd.

A lot of these ideas are suggestions and things blizzard could do to make a druid and "Druid" again. I don't mean to sound ignorant or dismiss what you guys are saying, but trust me when i say i know about my stat weights.

Yes, you're right though, i need to consider both PvE and PvP.

And mitmem you're being quiet crucial for not have raided regular since Cata.

Thanks for the input so far everyone!
All I see here is a request to make druids just like all the other healers.
All I see here is a request to make druids just like all the other healers.


I'm asking to improve what we are best at, so that raids feel as if they need a resto druid, as of now i feel no one does.

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