Nobody Enjoys The Paladin Inquisition!

Paladin
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04/21/2013 01:16 AMPosted by Isialai
Let's say I do an exo for 50k, judgment for 50k + weaken, CS for 50k, and then TV for 80k.... That's not as interesting as say, exo for 30k, judge for 30k, CS for 40k, and then TV for 130k + weaken.


You didn't factor in HoL

I get Inquisition. I just don't like how it works. I don't think it's a fun mechanic. I get how it contributes to damage. I just don't find "press this button once every 30 sec to keep your damage where it should be" to be compelling gameplay


I'm sorry but how is this different from you keeping up your diseases? If you don't have both of them up your Obliterate won't be dealing as much damage.
I'm sorry but how is this different from you keeping up your diseases? If you don't have both of them up your Obliterate won't be dealing as much damage.


'Cause diseases themselves deal damage. It's the same complaint about Inq as always - it doesn't deal damage, so it's wasted maintenance. For one to claim their complaint about Inq is any different from that is straight-up denial.
http://i.imgur.com/wJb8QXl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OKTEp.gif
Obliterate hits like a truck. Templar's Verdict hit like...well, ironically, a hybrid.


TV does hit hard. When you hit a target with TV there are three damage components

1) The actual TV hit
2) Hand of Light applying from the TV
3) Your seal applying from the TV hit

The examples I gave were illustrations of how similar mechanics from other classes were more interesting. They were not meant to be taken as simplistically as "X does this, therefore Inquisition should do this". I know how very against homogenous class mechanics we all are. That doesn't mean that lessons can't be learned from more interesting abilities and applied to others in unique ways.


Your illustration concerning inquisition is wrong. Only one rogue spec gets a refresh on slice and dice, and for reasons other than "it's not fun!"
Absolutely hate Inq. Should just be glowing fists proc like we had in the old days. Should be passive or a proc from a crit strike or something. And the old TV animation was much better.
Inquisition is terrible, has been terrible since it was implemented and will continue to be terrible. I do however not understand why anyone would look at it and think that a maint. buff that is a requirement for the spec to operate properly would be "fun" for some people (is it because of some perceived "depth" that it gives the spec? idk). But that's just me.
Terrible or not, it's necessary. It's a skill check. I say that, because the way some people talk about it, you'd think having to hit it every 30s was a superpower or something.
The reason Inquisition doesn't feel fun to me is that it is a maintenance ability. Paladin's do normal damage when Inquisition is up and do less damage when it's not up. As opposed to cool downs (like Avenging Wrath) where we do more damage when it's up and normal damage when it's down. The ability doesn't feel rewarding when it's used. It only feels punishing when it's not used.


I think this is also why it's so often compared to Slice and Dice and Savage Roar -- they're the same thing. It's punishing if they drop (or at the start of the fight when you have to get them up before doing other things) and punishing when you have to spend resources to maintain them. The act of putting them up uses a GCD and consumes resources to do 0 upfront damage.

Diseases not only do damage themselves, they are also applied by strikes that do damage. Not OMGWTF damage, but enough so that you feel like pushing your buttons hurts things. Ditto Flame Shock. Rising Sun Kick applies a debuff that you need to maintain, but it's also a strike in its own right.

Different classes are different, but there's clearly a significant number of DPS players who are bothered by needing to press a button that does 0 damage just to set up something else later. Imagine if rogue/monk/pally resource builders did 0 damage... that wouldn't be popular, would it?

Complaining about the maintenance buff is an undead horse thread in the forums of every class that has one, but there's also often some players who show up to defend it. Different things are fun to different people (which is probably why they design the classes to work differently in the first place, but players don't necessarily respond well to "if you don't like mechanic X, you might have more fun playing class Y" even when it's true).

Maybe part of the problem is that you can't get away from it aside from rerolling -- if it were a talent that had viable alternative options that produced about the same overall output, people who like it and people who don't like it could both play in a way they enjoy.

TLDR: It needs to be about 20% cooler. (Where is that from, anyway?)
I'd rather people say something like, "Every time you use Inquisition, God kills a kitten that was riding a dingo that ate a baby that was clubbing a new born seal that was being super communist."

I'd have an easier time accepting that.
Inquisition by itself isn't fun. I understand that.

The problem is that without Inquisition, the only thing Ret will use Holy Power on in PvE is Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm. That's not as interesting. If Inquisition goes, something else will have to be added in its place. And I have no doubt that people would still complain that having to juggle two finishers, even if both dealt damage, is too annoying.
Inquisition by itself isn't fun. I understand that.

The problem is that without Inquisition, the only thing Ret will use Holy Power on in PvE is Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm. That's not as interesting. If Inquisition goes, something else will have to be added in its place. And I have no doubt that people would still complain that having to juggle two finishers, even if both dealt damage, is too annoying.

So let's propose a PvP fix. PvP rets use a lot more than just TV. Inq maintenance is just an annoyance there.
I agree that the "fun" aspect of Inquisition should be upgraded, but I disagree to removing this ability completely. As stated earlier in this thread, it's a skill check, and things in fact would be MORE boring without Inq.

So to Blizz devs, I say "Good work thus far on Inq, but keep improving."

Like others have said, it's one of our few finishers. It needs to stand on its own somehow, not just be a wind up for Templar's Verdict.
So let's propose a PvP fix. PvP rets use a lot more than just TV. Inq maintenance is just an annoyance there.

If you're not bad at HP management, Inq is pretty easy to keep up.
Pushing butan is hard.
I'll be the first to say it.

I like inquisition.

That's right, I actually like it.

I currently have a 90 rogue, 90 DK, and my 90 Pally.

As a rogue you need to maintain Slice & Dice, as a Pally you need to maintain Inquisition. It's what separates our class from being, I dont know, a Frost DK?

I always find myself searching for my maintenance buff as a DK, but there isn't one. (no diseases don't count)

Note that I am comparing Ret to a Frost DK, I have played unholy and will admit it is exponentially harder than Frost. However I still prefer Ret in terms of enjoyability.

Maybe I've been brainwashed by Blizzard into coming to terms with maintenance buffs, or maybe it is rewarding to know that even by some small factor, your class takes a tad bit more to play.

A lot of the arguments consist of "I dont feel it makes a difference in damage" etc.
Well, lets put things this way. No other class can constantly maintain a 10% crit chance buff. Now ofcourse some classes, (mages, DKs) can get procs to guarantee a 100% crit, but not 10% at all times. But here's the difference: Paladins aren't about big numbers. But it's understandable to want to see those big numbers. Why is unholy DK less appealing than frost? Big numbers. Why is Destro more appealing than afflic? big numbers. Big numbers are fun, but Ret isnt a "big number" class.

Ret is a finesse class. Sure, you can play a mongo comp @1500 and just Wings rush and kill something, and thats fine, but where ret really shines is as a team player. I dont think Ret needs any more shiny buttons.

Could inquisition be made more interesting? Perhaps. Is it fine the way it is? Yes.

This is all coming from a PvP perspective, I don't actually know how it effects PvE.

Just my $.02
I always find myself searching for my maintenance buff as a DK, but there isn't one. (no diseases don't count)

I think they do--or, at least, Blood Plague does, for Frost. Yes, it does deal a pathetically tiny amount of damage by itself, but the only reason Frost keeps it up is because it increases the damage of other attacks. And keeping it up involves maintenance-y activity--whether it's through Outbreak, Unholy Blight, or Plague Strike.
10% crit buff

30% Hold Damage buff

every 30 sec

what is so damn hard about that? Properly geared Ret, read: HASTE, generates more than enough HP to keep inquisition up, period.

Stop the QQ...learn to Pew Pew...

and don't talk about PvP...no one cares...
Inquisition at first reminds me of the 30 second seals paladins had back in vanilla, if any of you can remember back that far to those dark days.

I won't say I hate inquisition or that it's bad. I am still learning to manage it optimally on my pally, and yes it's simply just different then up keeping diseases every 30 seconds. It's really just a matter of learning how to play something differently, it's not hard, just different because a Ret Paladin has so much more to worry about in pvp than a DK. Though having diseases up is a very similar thing for DK's in respect to damage, you loose 25% of Obliterate damage without them and the dot tick (Yes, this is maintenance. It used to be more of a chore, with Unholy Blight, outbreak it's just much easier to do). Both cost resources, both require upkeep, yadda yadda, apples, oranges.
Honestly, inq has never really bothered me. I mean if it wasn't there, Ret would literally be nothing but cooldown management, off healing, and TV spam.
OP's class shouldn't matter, as their opinion regardless is valid. I think a lot of people are missing the point here. They are not saying that Inquisition is too hard to keep up, or that ret is too hard to play. They are saying that it's not FUN, which I totally agree with. It's sort of like warriors's shield block and paladin's holy shield back in Burning Crusade: having to meticulously keep a buff up every 10-20 seconds just isn't fun, especially a passive buff that just gives "more numbers". It has no real visible effect, other than bigger or smaller numbers. TO most people, that's not FUN.

I agree here, as it's just a flat damage increase and crit increase. Stuff like that might as well be baked in, because I'd much rather use a cool, flashy ability with my three holy power than have to waste it maintaining a boring 30 second buff just to remain competitive DPS-wise. It's just not FUN. Does that mean it's hard? Not really. It's not exciting, either.

Also, what's the deal with ret AoE? Almost every other class I can think of has on-demand AoE almost whenever they want it, even other 2H classes like Arms warriors and Death Knight. Why do we need to blow holy power on an incredibly weak AoE ability when other classes have it pretty much whenever they want? Seal of Righteousness hardly feels effective at 9% weapon damage, as well. I really think the class could use flashier AoE, or put divine storm back on a cooldown or something like it was back in Wrath. It's another aspect of the class I find to be unfun when compared with other class AoE abilities.

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