On Draenei warlocks...

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Osiria, I',m not going to get into the weeds of whether warlocks are "better" than deathknights or not.

I actually doubt either is welcome into Draenei society. I imagine that Draenei DKs are outcasts. But their existence is at least explainable by circumstance. All DKs are essentially tragic figures and Draenei DKs would especially be so.

A Draenei actively choosing to become a warlock? Nope. Never. It just goes against their nature and being and their society. And therefore the option shouldn't even exist. It makes a travesty of all existing Draenei lore. This isn't mere prejudice, either. It's entirely rational for them being who they are.

Trying to somehow make it work is being open minded to the point where your brains spill out. It's just plain chuckleheaded.
A draenei going warlock would be quickly killed by it's own brothers and sisters.

Unthinkable.
My but this thread is full of random speculation.

A Death Knight is a Death Knight, that's not just their chosen path it is what they are and they have no choice in the matter.

A Draenei Death Knight has two options, use their abilities to do what good they can or kill themselves and end it all. They are very likely outcasts within Draenei society but they are tragic victims.

Warlocks on the other hand have choice. They choose to use demonic magic. To the Draenei who lost everything because of this it would be unthinkable. This goes well beyond any comparisons, such as Night Elves aversion to the Arcane.

There's being open minded and adapting to necessities and then there's just throwing away everything that your race stands for.

To a Draenei becoming a Warlock is becoming Man'ari.

That's not to say all other Warlocks are evil, but for a society that has been through what the Draenei have been through it's just not feasible.
Somebody ought to throw this question at the next Cdev, btw. Just to put it to rest already. I'm morally certain that the answer is exactly what you would expect here, but let's make it official.
Somebody ought to throw this question at the next Cdev, btw. Just to put it to rest already. I'm morally certain that the answer is exactly what you would expect here, but let's make it official.


I'll lay 10-1 odds that if they answer it, they will do so in a way that is vague and can be taken both for them not being warlocks, to the accepting warlocks.
04/19/2013 11:25 AMPosted by Kynrind
Somebody ought to throw this question at the next Cdev, btw. Just to put it to rest already. I'm morally certain that the answer is exactly what you would expect here, but let's make it official.


I'll lay 10-1 odds that if they answer it, they will do so in a way that is vague and can be taken both for them not being warlocks, to the accepting warlocks.

Which would more than likely get significant backlash since the two most well known "Draenei" warlocks are Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. They shouldnt be allowed, period.
They're not that desperate to get mixed back up with the power of the Burning Legion, and this faction for Draenei are the ones that specifically chose not to be Demonically enhanced, so it makes little sense for them to harness that power they've spent their entire existence as a faction fighting

Not happening
Draenei warlock is one of those class/race combos that should never happen. It ranks up there with undead druid and orc paladin.
04/19/2013 07:41 AMPosted by Kynrind
The orc warlocks in WC 1 and 2 were pretty unrepentant about what they were. Warlocks that liked being what they were. A LOT.
Nobody's talking about Warcraft 1 and 2.

Orc Warlocks of classic, of Thrall's Horde, were shunned and outcast in the move to shamanism. They were basically in hiding, but they thought they could use their enemy's power for good.
04/19/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Dapperwolf
The orc warlocks in WC 1 and 2 were pretty unrepentant about what they were. Warlocks that liked being what they were. A LOT.
Nobody's talking about Warcraft 1 and 2.

Orc Warlocks of classic, of Thrall's Horde, were shunned and outcast in the move to shamanism. They were basically in hiding, but they thought they could use their enemy's power for good.


Many of the orc warlocks teachers in classic WoW were also warlocks in WC1-2. There were some new ones, but some of the older ones had to have survived to teach the younger ones how to learn and use their powers.
The whole "endless hunger for pain" thing was never really clarified as far as I know. For all we know a DK could sate his need by pulling the legs off a few spiders. Or heading out into the woods and murdering some animals.


It would be quite ridiculous if it were that simple.

Blizz shouldn't have even wrote it then, since there would be basically no weight on DKs.

No one would care if they tortured some wild animal every once in a while. People end up killing them for food or when they see fit and don't feel any kind of remorse because it's "just an animal" anyways.

A Draenei actively choosing to become a warlock? Nope. Never. It just goes against their nature and being and their society. And therefore the option shouldn't even exist. It makes a travesty of all existing Draenei lore. This isn't mere prejudice, either. It's entirely rational for them being who they are.


Against their nature? Did you miss the part were the majority of their race turned to Sargeras because of promises of power unaware of what was waiting for them? Out of all playable races, the Draenei are exactly the more prone to become Warlocks, considering their history.

Or is it just that stereotype of 'hive mind', which basically makes every single Draenei think and behave exactly like Velen?

No, it's not a "travesty". Did anyone suggest their culture should change? Nope. The idea is that some of them, EXACTLY because of what happened in the past, would feel compelled to seek vengeance upon the Legion using their own power against them. It's entirely rational to conceive Draenei that would prefer vengeance than their own well being.

There are also other motivations like "If the light were that strong, why our homeworld was destroyed?", "The Naaru alone can't help us or we wouldn't be here." or "Demonic magic is really powerful. If the light couldn't do anything, the Legion's own power will."

All of these are perfectly rational reasons for a few Draenei refuse/abandon their culture to seek power. And the basic one "I prefer power for myself than those beliefs" fits with every single race.

People need to stop with the mentality that if someone is part of a certain race, it automatically makes them think exactly like each other.

04/19/2013 10:43 AMPosted by Aeoden
A draenei going warlock would be quickly killed by it's own brothers and sisters.


Which would make them either a bunch of bigots, racists or hypocrites. The Alliance is clearly well informed about their own Warlocks and openly accepts them due the meaningful gains Warlocks bring with them.
Societal norms and values are very important in socialization. For example, how often do you see cannibals in the US? Sure it happens, but not frequently enough to make note of it. That's because it's a strict taboo in US culture. The same thing for warlocks in draenei culture. It might happen, but not frequently enough to warrant a playable draenei warlock and they'd almost certainly be killed or imprisoned if caught.
Osiria, after 25,000 years of exposure to ambient Na'aru radiation, I think yes, there have been some changes. They are not quite original Eredar anymore. This is nothing as crazy and obvious as what happened to the Eredar that joined the Legion, to be sure, but it's there.

Velen himself projects a reality distorting field practically. He's not what he was when he left Argus anymore, exactly. The Draenei are...post Eredar. Trans Eredar.

It is neither hypocritical, racist or bigoted for Draenei society to exclude warlocks. Warlocks just don't fit into their scheme. It is indeed preposterous for us to insist that they include them. That's our cultural frame of reference. We ought to respect their choices and evolution in this matter. They're frankly a lot more advanced than us human types, so it's a bit rich for us to be imposing our views upon them. They respect ours and we ought to do the same. We don't all have to be carbon copies.

(Although when Velen starts lecturing Tyrande about the Na'aru he is on thin ice...but I digress.)
The whole "endless hunger for pain" thing was never really clarified as far as I know. For all we know a DK could sate his need by pulling the legs off a few spiders. Or heading out into the woods and murdering some animals.


Is also not that unreasonable given the Death Knights freed from the Lich King get to exact there hunger out on the bad guys.

While I wouldn't think that the Draenei would be big fans of the Death Knights, it wouldn't even be on the same level as how they see Warlocks. A Draenei turning to demonic magic would be the ultimate betrayal of their people. Ever since Sargeras first corrupted them, they've spent they're entire history constantly on the run from the members of their race that chose that very path. For them to choose to do the same would be completely backwards beyond comprehension, it's simply out of consideration for them.

Even the Broken, a mutation caused by adverse effects of fel exposure is generally looked down upon by them.

And for Draenei warlocks to exist as playable in-game would pretty much be the cue to start throwing out anything making this resemble an rpg based on any sort of game world.

On the DK thing. Many Death Knights are also ashamed of what they are, and fighting for the good guys is pretty much the only way they can justify to themselves not being burnt at the stake.
It might happen, but not frequently enough to warrant a playable draenei warlock and they'd almost certainly be killed or imprisoned if caught.


This sums up any argument for Draenei Warlocks nicely.

Which would make them either a bunch of bigots, racists or hypocrites. The Alliance is clearly well informed about their own Warlocks and openly accepts them due the meaningful gains Warlocks bring with them.


You seem to be taking this personally, abhorring the use of Fel Magic after what the Draenei have been through makes them nothing of the sort.

And what Alliance are you playing in? The Alliance tolerates and makes use of Warlocks because it's practical, but they certainly don't parade them about.

Why do you think most of the trainers are hidden away in dark basements and such?

About the only race that openly accepts them is the Forsaken and perhaps Blood Elves.
All things, can become corrupt. Even the best, the brightest, the most pure can fall, and we have seen that, from Sargeras himself, to the majority of the draenei to become man'ari, Ner'zhul, Arthas, Kael'thas, all individuals who strived to do good things, but turned to evil. That it can happen to anyone, anything. Even M'uru despaired, and became something dark, something wicked, when exposed to such evil, such despair.

I mention M'uru specifically for a reason. That M'uru fell... but did not stay fallen, that M'uru was redeemed, and with that act of redemption, that act of sacrifice, relit the Sunwell, and saved the blood elves. The blood elves, who had fallen to corruption, to evil, to do foul things with fel magics, but M'uru gave them a way away from that, so they could be saved, despite the evils they had done.

The point of the Light, is redemption. That everyone can be saved, even though not everything will choose it. That everything deserves that chance at redemption, to turn away from evil, to choose good.

The man'ari are not simply eredar, that chose evil, though certainly some did. Many of them followed their leaders, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, who followed an even greater being, Sargeras, who was still clad in the guise of light at the time when he offered the eredar power. Velen was able, to see the truth, but not everyone has the gifts of Velen, to see that. That they did what they thought was right, but they were mistaken, wrong. Sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, to draenei who are now, who chose a different path, and are now man'ari.

Do you think, that not one can be saved? That not one deserves another chance, the chance of redemption? Where is your heart, your soul, your faith, for denying them that opportunity?

What does this, have to do with draenei warlocks? Because fel magic works, and it works especially well, on creatures infused with fel. Demons, including the man'ari.

It may not be easy, and it certainly may not be right. It is a risk, for temptation, to fall just as countless others have, to the corrupting power of fel forces. But if even one can be saved, redeemed, to be restored to what they were, to no longer be evil, and to be good instead, is it not worth it? To risk yourself, to save another, by any means necessary, even to dare risk your own soul?

M'uru thought it was worth it, to save the blood elves. To give himself up, that they could consume his power, to use it as they would, just for the opportunity to save them.

Draenei warlocks make just as much sense as draenei paladins.
Yablik, my spellbook doesn't have anything in it about redeeming demons.

Warlocks dominate demons. They enslave demons. Sometimes, they cut deals with demons. They seek power. They are not liberators, nor is fel magic a liberating force.

If you want to use fel magic as a weapon against the legion, sure, it's hell on wheels for that, up to a point. (That point being you running into a demon stronger than the warlock.)

But the saving souls business...that's for the Light. If this is at all possible.
*snip*
Draenei warlocks make just as much sense as draenei paladins.


No they do not. The Blood elves, as bad as the ones on Azeroth got, were never servants of the Burning Legion. They were not the leaders and officers of the Legion like the Man'ari have been. It's been 25,000 years since the Eredar joined the Legion and the Eredar that would become the Draenei fled. Every single Eredar that is a warlock, every single one, is a member of the Legion and has been actively spending the last 25k years finding and utterly destroying countless worlds. To the Draenei, one of their kind becoming a warlock is literally joining with the enemy. Fighting fire with fire notwithstanding, it would be one of the worst betrayals a Draenei could commit for the race. And as such any Draenei that was known to want to become a warlock or dabbles in such powers would and indeed should be on a kill list and he killed no matter where he or she is at.
Fel magic is one of the best tools at containing and restricting demons without actively attempting to kill them. See Banish and Enslave Demon.

Not really a hard idea how these same ideas could be used to limit demons in the hopes of giving you time so that the opportunity for rehabilition can occur.

As I said, it certainly won't be easy, and it certainly won't be without risks. But it might very well be the best tool available for the job.

Draenei warlocks make just as much sense as draenei paladins.


No, absolutely not.

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