On Draenei warlocks...

Story Forum
Fel magic is one of the best tools at containing and restricting demons without actively attempting to kill them. See Banish and Enslave Demon.

Not really a hard idea how these same ideas could be used to limit demons in the hopes of giving you time so that the opportunity for rehabilition can occur.

As I said, it certainly won't be easy, and it certainly won't be without risks. But it might very well be the best tool available for the job.


How do we get to the rehabilitation part? I'm just not seeing this. Will the demons spontaneously enlighten?

You can catch them, sure. You can confine them, I guess. But after that...
Eh, Draenei Warlocks make about as much sense to me as Forsaken Druids, and Orc Paladins.

so... No.
They're not that desperate to get mixed back up with the power of the Burning Legion


Just to comment on something that have been basically confirmed lately.

Burning Legion is quite separated from Demons. Demons themselves are nasty, chaotic and all, but the organization itself seems to be something that have "corrupted" demons into seeking absolute chaos for the entire universe. Let me enlist what makes me think so:

- There were always demons. Before Sargeras created the Legion, he had encontered other demons, such as the Nathrezim. If they were actual demons or had been corrupted at some point, seems unknown.

- The Titans themselves used demons to oversee the use of magic (Doomguards, there might be others though).

- Warlock green fire quest, there are what seems to be those freed demons. They aren't part of the Legion anymore. Illidan were using a source of magic in the Black Temple to free the demons of the Legion's corruption. The blue fire seems to be the most obvious indication.

- Demons themselves make their own choices, which can go against the Legions intentions. Observers, for example, do what they wanna do. Sometimes, if they have something to gain, they can make deals with Warlocks. They get what they want and the Warlock gets an employee.
Societal norms and values are very important in socialization. For example, how often do you see cannibals in the US? Sure it happens, but not frequently enough to make note of it. That's because it's a strict taboo in US culture. The same thing for warlocks in draenei culture. It might happen, but not frequently enough to warrant a playable draenei warlock and they'd almost certainly be killed or imprisoned if caught.


Let's assume you're right that Warlocks to Draenei are as bad as cannibals to the US. Now, imagine the US are part of a faction which is composed of other countries. These countries are quite close allies. Thing is, some of these other countries accept cannibalism, but limit the pratice to their enemies and anyone who pratices must do it away from public areas.

Do you really think it makes sense for the US condemn cannibalism when they're perfectly fine with the fact their close allies don't mind? "If it's one of ours doing, it's wrong, but if it's other people, then it's all right."?

Osiria, after 25,000 years of exposure to ambient Na'aru radiation, I think yes, there have been some changes. They are not quite original Eredar anymore. This is nothing as crazy and obvious as what happened to the Eredar that joined the Legion, to be sure, but it's there.

Velen himself projects a reality distorting field practically. He's not what he was when he left Argus anymore, exactly. The Draenei are...post Eredar. Trans Eredar.


You're just making that up. The fact Velen was stated as immortal is because of his connection with the light, not because he "mutated" into something else.

Velen is considered a Draenei even though he is as old as Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, tracking him back straight to Argus, an Eredar. There are others that remember Argus, btw. Really wanna tell me that all of them were as connected with the light as Velen or other paladins to have "mutated" too?

04/19/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Sybhyl
It is neither hypocritical, racist or bigoted for Draenei society to exclude warlocks.


Yes, it is. If the facts show that things aren't as simple as they claim, but they still remain stand by their decision, then it does make them hypocrites, bigots and/or racists. At least, at some level. They don't need to be on an extreme to be considered so.
04/19/2013 02:38 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
You seem to be taking this personally, abhorring the use of Fel Magic after what the Draenei have been through makes them nothing of the sort.


It's more like the opposite. People react to the suggestion of Draenei Warlocks like an actual Draenei, the deeply religious kind, would react to a Warlock.

Anyways.

What I meant by bigot is that, if Draenei couldn't see the difference between the Legion warlocks and the Alliance ones because of their religious beliefs then it would make them bigots. Warlocks who don't strive for ultimate destruction and even support the "good guys" by doing what they couldn't or wouldn't ever do.

What I meant by racists is that they can be considered racists because at some point they're fine and tolerate Warlocks in the Alliance but at the sight of a Draenei Warlock it's death sentence solely for the fact they're Draenei, and not Human, for instance.

And by hypocrites I meant that, if Draenei would not tolerate or merely kill Draenei Warlocks on sight because of their beliefs, then the Draenei end up like hypocrites, because they mysteriously seem fine to fight at other Warlocks side and be part of a faction that clearly makes use of them. Not just that, they actually get obvious gains from these Warlocks. Gains that might benefit Draenei, btw.

And what Alliance are you playing in? The Alliance tolerates and makes use of Warlocks because it's practical, but they certainly don't parade them about.

Why do you think most of the trainers are hidden away in dark basements and such?

About the only race that openly accepts them is the Forsaken and perhaps Blood Elves.


And at which point did I say they "parade them about"? By "openly" I meant that their societies are "clearly informed" about them. People disagree, hate, despise, whatever might be, but they know about them and see their gains.
No, it should never happen, ever. Not every race needs to be every class and warlock violates the lore.

The draenei are not bigots or racists for disliking a power that always corrupts those that use it.
What I meant by bigot is that, if Draenei couldn't see the difference between the Legion warlocks and the Alliance ones because of their religious beliefs then it would make them bigots. Warlocks who don't strive for ultimate destruction and even support the "good guys" by doing what they couldn't or wouldn't ever do.

What I meant by racists is that they can be considered racists because at some point they're fine and tolerate Warlocks in the Alliance but at the sight of a Draenei Warlock it's death sentence solely for the fact they're Draenei, and not Human, for instance.

And by hypocrites I meant that, if Draenei would not tolerate or merely kill Draenei Warlocks on sight because of their beliefs, then the Draenei end up like hypocrites, because they mysteriously seem fine to fight at other Warlocks side and be part of a faction that clearly makes use of them. Not just that, they actually get obvious gains from these Warlocks. Gains that might benefit Draenei, btw.


Realistically, Draenei -should- be killing any warlock they meet. Even Alliance warlocks. They are that offensive to the Draenei. It's game play and only game play reasons that let warlocks be as open as they are and suffer no consequences because of their class choice. Draenei who want to be warlocks should be especially repulsive to them.

Let's assume you're right that Warlocks to Draenei are as bad as cannibals to the US. Now, imagine the US are part of a faction which is composed of other countries. These countries are quite close allies. Thing is, some of these other countries accept cannibalism, but limit the pratice to their enemies and anyone who pratices must do it away from public areas.

Do you really think it makes sense for the US condemn cannibalism when they're perfectly fine with the fact their close allies don't mind? "If it's one of ours doing, it's wrong, but if it's other people, then it's all right."?


Yes, it does make sense for the US to condemn cannibalism. The US could make it's dislike of that practice known to it's allies and would likely forbid those people from entering the US. And if those people are caught by the US practicing their eating habit on an enemy, they would very likely be arrested under US and international law. Just because an ally has practices that are repulsive and forbidden by law in the US doesn't mean the US would have to tolerate those practices like you are implying.

You could say the same with slavery. An ally practices slavery, but only enslaves enemies. To the US, a nation based on freedom of self choice and who fought a civil war to stop that repulsive practice, it would be very much in character to absolutely forbid any slave owners into the country and to forcefully free any slaves that those nations diplomats might bring in. Diplomatic immunity would likely not cover that. Even at the cost of alienating the ally, some things would not and indeed -should- not be tolerated.
04/19/2013 08:44 PMPosted by Osiria
They're not that desperate to get mixed back up with the power of the Burning Legion


Just to comment on something that have been basically confirmed lately.

Burning Legion is quite separated from Demons. Demons themselves are nasty, chaotic and all, but the organization itself seems to be something that have "corrupted" demons into seeking absolute chaos for the entire universe. Let me enlist what makes me think so:

- There were always demons. Before Sargeras created the Legion, he had encontered other demons, such as the Nathrezim. If they were actual demons or had been corrupted at some point, seems unknown.

- The Titans themselves used demons to oversee the use of magic (Doomguards, there might be others though).

- Warlock green fire quest, there are what seems to be those freed demons. They aren't part of the Legion anymore. Illidan were using a source of magic in the Black Temple to free the demons of the Legion's corruption. The blue fire seems to be the most obvious indication.

- Demons themselves make their own choices, which can go against the Legions intentions. Observers, for example, do what they wanna do. Sometimes, if they have something to gain, they can make deals with Warlocks. They get what they want and the Warlock gets an employee.


Wrong. Everyone who works for the Burning Legion is a demon, is full of fel corruption. All demons are corrupted by fel taint. Even the ones that worked for Illidan were full of it. They -all- like to maim, destroy and kill whether they work for the Legion or not and the vast majority of demons work for the Legion.
I am just trying to understand how Draenei death knights fit in, and if Draenei are so against warlocks, well they have Death Knights, which isn't much different from a warlock, both classes use dark energies and powers for the greater good?


I hear yah sister. I don't gnomes should be dk's, or perhaps by extension warriors. But there yah go.


You're just making that up. The fact Velen was stated as immortal is because of his connection with the light, not because he "mutated" into something else.

Velen is considered a Draenei even though he is as old as Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, tracking him back straight to Argus, an Eredar. There are others that remember Argus, btw. Really wanna tell me that all of them were as connected with the light as Velen or other paladins to have "mutated" too?



Am I? Take a look at those racials they're sporting. The Gift of the Naaru. Did they have that on Argus? I rather doubt it.

Velen was a mage back on Argus, not a priest. He did have the visions back then, sure, at least enough to see through Sargeras' pack of lies.

These Draenei, including Velen, have been marked by their long exile. They are not the same as when they started.

Look, just try this as an exercise. Take a trip to the Exodar. (I keep my mage bank alt there, I am so fond of it. So serene.)

Really get a feel for the place, walk around, talk to the NPCs. Check out the Naaru they have stashed at the bottom of their spaceship.

They're very friendly. "Open your heart to the light." "Be kind to those less fortunate than you." Etc. None of this screams "warlock" to me. The place is practically seething in light, the government is a theocracy whose leader is some kind of near superbeing practically glowing with light.

They do have a holographic museum showing their Legion enemies. Who rather resemble the pets you and I have stashed away.

How do you fit a warlock into this?
Half the things warlocks summon are Draenei...so Draenei warlocks would just get weird.
Half the things warlocks summon are Draenei...so Draenei warlocks would just get weird.


Dreanei is not interchangable with Man'ari or Eredar.
Half the things warlocks summon are Draenei...so Draenei warlocks would just get weird.


No, they aren't. They're demons, and not all demons are Eredar, or even connected to the legion. The only pet I have that bears any possible connection at all to a Draenei is the Wrathguard. I am not sure what the story behind those are, it's debatable.

But a Draenei warlock is seriously seriously taboo.
Using my response to this from a previous thread on the subject.

Eredar and Draenei are, essentially, the same species. There are certain physical differences, but that is the result of exposure to the different types of magic. A draenei who uses fel magic would be, by definition, an eredar. And any draenei considering trying fel magic would know this.

Now think about what the eredar have done, not even taking into account fel magic. They have slaughtered hundreds of their own brethren, possibly even siblings, and pursued the outcasts over thousands of years. They are responsible for billions of lives lost, or corrupted. Think about how they are viewed in draenei society. They are worse than monsters.

Guess what i'm saying is that warlocks wouldn't happen because draenei see that as becoming eredar, their anathema, their dark mirror. Young draenei have grown up hearing stories of the evil of the eredar, and old draenei have felt the sting of it. Draenei warlocks won't happen because they simply don't want it.

Shadow priests can work, because that does not tap into fel magic. It is part of the natural cycle of the Light. That is as close to the dark side as draenei are going to get, IMHO
Aelandel, that's a pretty good summary, but I actually don't think Eredar and Draenei are the same species anymore. Eredar are pretty drastically altered at this point. The Draenei themselves I believe have changed subtly from their original forms on Argus.
Aelandel, that's a pretty good summary, but I actually don't think Eredar and Draenei are the same species anymore. Eredar are pretty drastically altered at this point. The Draenei themselves I believe have changed subtly from their original forms on Argus.


Both have changed due to the differing magic exposure, but physiologically they are the same. Look at the fel blood elves from BC. They developed superficial demonic features very quickly, but lost them once drained off their power. Man'ari, the high ranking ones, the sorcerer types, are still the same as draenei, they are simply divided by a vast philosophical and magical difference.

To Draenei, Eredar+Holy magic=them, Eredar+fel magic=Man'ari. The similarities are so close that a Man'ari was able to pose as a Draenei in the Bloodmyst Storyline.

Edit: Extra word added.
I dunno, give fel blood elves 25,000 years to speciate, and they're not going to be elves anymore. At least not high/blood elves.

Consider the evolution of elves generally on Azeroth from their trollish origins, the divergence of the high elves from night elves, or the effects of the curse of flesh on various titan constructs. Or, heck, the Mogu uplifting experiments in Pandaria.

At some point you're talking about something new.

Most of the Eredar I've seen are quite enormous compared to Draenei. Not all, but most.

WoW evolution is weird.
Most of the Eredar I've seen are quite enormous compared to Draenei. Not all, but most.

WoW evolution is weird.


I need sleep, but here's a parting thought on the matter.

Pekingnese dogs and Great Danes. Both are radically different, bred for different things. Looking at them, without any prior knowledge, you wouldn't be able to guess they are related.

But they are both descendants of wolves. Same deal here, in my opinion. The difference between the Man'ari and the Draenei is philosophical and magical, not physical. I would go so far as to say the same is true for Blood Elves and Night Elves, but that's another can of worms.

If a Draenei tried fell magic, they would be Man'ari. Like a Jedi going to the dark side is Sith. The physical changes would come later, or maybe not at all, but to their bretheren, and to themselves, they would be Man'ari.

To Draenei, Eredar+Holy magic=them, Eredar+fel magic=Man'ari. The similarities are so close that a Man'ari was able to pose as a Draenei in the Bloodmyst Storyline.


I forgot about that. She was turning Draenei into Manari against their will too. Just a bit of fel energy was enough to do it. So really, Draenei warlocks are a bad idea.
Thinking about it, these are desperate times, don't you think the Draenei might overcome their prejudices, I mean I am assuming that the Draenei have somewhat accepted Death Knights among their ranks, correct? Or am I mistaken? How do the Draenei see the Death Knights.


Point me in the direction of a death knight who chose the path to be one. To be a warlock you must choose to study forbidden arcane which the draenei frown upon. I imagine they toelrate their allies but it goes against their ideals and religion to practice such arts.

Draenei death knights are an unfortunate result of such magics if you think about it.

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