Land ownership in the wake of SoO

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04/18/2013 09:29 PMPosted by Kynrind
Will you please stop using that BS excuse of 'the Horde was necessary to save Azeroth'? The Horde didn't do it to save Azeroth for anyone. They did it to save their own personal hides. Nothing more. There was no 'we did it to save the world' or 'for nature' or 'It's the right thing to do'. They did it for one reason and one reason only. To save their asses from Legion destruction. Nothing more.


Doesn't change the fact that if they weren't here, everyone on Azeroth would be dead by now.

I think we still have some Dalaran people living in Alterac and Silverpine who've been there from the beginning, do you propose they should be forcibly evicted from the lands that were always theirs Curvis?


I don't see why.

But - They would be living in lands completely surrounded by the Forsaken. Even if they're not trying to take you out, it's not exactly the best place to hold up in.
What do you think you have rights to?

Everything south/east of Thoradin's Wall, and Gilneas except maybe Grom'gol and Stonard. Removal of the Horde outpost in in BLasted Lands unless it chooses to begin sharing Nethergarde's role of watching the Portal and making sure a new invasion doesn't happen and not attacking it.

On Kalimdor, everything Ashenvale and up and duswallow if they still want it.
Hmm.

I'd say Ashenvale and Stonetalon to the Alliance. Ashenvale because it was largely orc expansion that was driving that assault, and with Garrosh (and the orcs) likely dropped in importance in the "new new horde," the horde will have a hard time sustaining that push... if they even want to any more. Plus, I like to think the Night Elves would demand it on pain of mass executions or something.

Stonetalon for moral reasons - you don't bomb schools, and I'm pretty sure that point will get hammered home.

I'm pretty sure that Duskwallow Marsh (and the other regions surrounding Theramore) will end up with the Horde. They're too close to both Horde capitals, and Theramore's a wreck.

I don't think much is going to change on the Eastern Kingdoms. This fight isn't about Gilneas vs. Undercity; it's a fight about the orcish part of the Horde. I don't think that squabble is even going to get touched on. Plus, Sylvannas doesn't strike me as the negotiating sort.
04/19/2013 04:50 AMPosted by Cártian
Everything south/east of Thoradin's Wall,


People need to stop drawing the line at Thoradin's/Greymane Wall for the sole reason of trying to legitimize keeping the lands that the Horde stole from the Alliance in the Eastern Kingdoms.

It's like saying that the Horde should get to keep Ashenvale, Stonetalon, and Dustwallow.
04/19/2013 04:32 AMPosted by Veloran
Will you please stop using that BS excuse of 'the Horde was necessary to save Azeroth'? The Horde didn't do it to save Azeroth for anyone. They did it to save their own personal hides. Nothing more. There was no 'we did it to save the world' or 'for nature' or 'It's the right thing to do'. They did it for one reason and one reason only. To save their asses from Legion destruction. Nothing more.


Doesn't change the fact that if they weren't here, everyone on Azeroth would be dead by now.


It doesn't make any difference and does not excuse them being arseholes to their non-Horde neighbors. Yes, they helped save Azeroth. As did EVERY OTHER race in the Alliance and Horde. No one race of either faction, Alliance or Horde was especially needed since it was a -group- effort. It was not an 'orcs save everyone' moment. So the orcs are not entitled to a damned thing as a reward. Their contribution wasn't any more important than anyone else in the Alliance/Horde effort there. They do not get special privileges because of it.
04/19/2013 06:35 AMPosted by Vyrin
Everything south/east of Thoradin's Wall,


People need to stop drawing the line at Thoradin's/Greymane Wall for the sole reason of trying to legitimize keeping the lands that the Horde stole from the Alliance in the Eastern Kingdoms.

It's like saying that the Horde should get to keep Ashenvale, Stonetalon, and Dustwallow.

Like it or not, Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken. Get used to it.
04/19/2013 06:50 AMPosted by Cártian
Like it or not, Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.


By force of arms and nothing but, and this thread is about what lands the Alliance has claim to. Guess what? They have historical claim to all the lands the Forsaken occupy, and the Forsaken don't.
Like it or not, Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken.


By force of arms and nothing but, and this thread is about what lands the Alliance has claim to. Guess what? They have historical claim to all the lands the Forsaken occupy, and the Forsaken don't.

And the Troll and Mogu empires have historical claims to everywhere, so, hell, lets stop killing them and hand it all over to Zul and Lei Shen.

But we're getting off topic and I won't be saying anymore so this thread doesn't turn into yet another "forsaken must die" thread.
I would say Gilneas retakened, but Silverpine still contested. The beginning of demiliterization of the majority of the Horde in Ashenvale though Warsong outriders still being riled up and making guerrilla attacks on the sentinels. I could see the Alliance setting up a permanent base in Durotar where that other Alliance base used to be to keep an eye on Orgrimmar.

Other than that I don't see much changing, The Alliance is also committing a large amount of troops to Orgrimmar and if we're being serious about dethroning the tyrant we can't waste time/resources on trying to retake heavily contested/lost territories. Wouldn't help diplomatic talks to go around demanding everything back all at once, it would be a slow process for both rational and gameplay reasons.
Other than that I don't see much changing, The Alliance is also committing a large amount of troops to Orgrimmar and if we're being serious about dethroning the tyrant we can't waste time/resources on trying to retake heavily contested/lost territories. Wouldn't help diplomatic talks to go around demanding everything back all at once, it would be a slow process for both rational and gameplay reasons.


Yes we can. it's good military tactics. By keeping the pressure up on the Horde on the other fronts, it keeps the Horde from reinforcing Ogrimmar. It also keeps the rebels from being a realistic threat to the Alliance and bring Alliance pressure on them when it comes to the bargaining table.

And the Troll and Mogu empires have historical claims to everywhere, so, hell, lets stop killing them and hand it all over to Zul and Lei Shen.


Claims that are literally thousands to tens of thousands of years old don't have any precedence or validity really. Or at least they shouldn't. A few hundred years, maybe, but many thousands of years old? Hell no.
I don't think Sylvanas even wants to invade Gilneas, so when Garrosh stops breathing down her neck I think she'll leave it of her own accord. Hopefully something will be done with the zone, even just adding flavor NPCs to the city and/or towns.

The Forsaken should pull back behind Thoradin's wall, but they should have Argents/CC members watching them as they try to find a way to get rid of or neutralize the blight damage to Hillsbrad. (They don't necessarily have to use it, but they have to prove that it can be done, so they can't blight more land in the future to claim it by right of "no one else can live there for centuries".)

The orcs should pull out of Ashenvale completely, and turn bases in Azshara into peaceful lumber camps, watched over by CC and one or two Alliance druids to make sure they're not doing any long-term damage to the forest. The druids get the ability to change how the camp operates at any time, but they are not allowed to close it or miss a weekly shipment of lumber to Orgrimmar. That way the orcs get their resources without having to conflict the night elves.
Alliance build a wall between Barrens and Durotar.

Barrens is now Alliance.
The Forsaken should pull back behind Thoradin's wall, but they should have Argents/CC members watching them as they try to find a way to get rid of or neutralize the blight damage to Hillsbrad. (They don't necessarily have to use it, but they have to prove that it can be done, so they can't blight more land in the future to claim it by right of "no one else can live there for centuries".)

The orcs should pull out of Ashenvale completely, and turn bases in Azshara into peaceful lumber camps, watched over by CC and one or two Alliance druids to make sure they're not doing any long-term damage to the forest. The druids get the ability to change how the camp operates at any time, but they are not allowed to close it or miss a weekly shipment of lumber to Orgrimmar. That way the orcs get their resources without having to conflict the night elves.


Entirely understandable and fair. I think the night elves should be able to dictate how resources in Azshara and Ashenvale are harvested, but cutting off access to resource entirely is what caused this war in the first place.

I'd consider making the Greymane Wall. Even though war is contradictory to Sylvannas' agenda of immortality, I really don't trust the two to play nice with eachother.
The orcs should pull out of Ashenvale completely, and turn bases in Azshara into peaceful lumber camps, watched over by CC and one or two Alliance druids to make sure they're not doing any long-term damage to the forest. The druids get the ability to change how the camp operates at any time, but they are not allowed to close it or miss a weekly shipment of lumber to Orgrimmar. That way the orcs get their resources without having to conflict the night elves.

I acutally really like this idea.

It would work well too seeing as Cenarion was shown in Warcraft 3 as being capable of regrowing massive portions of the forest within a few seconds.

Chop down some trees, regrow em right after. Lumber for everyone.
Entirely understandable and fair. I think the night elves should be able to dictate how resources in Azshara and Ashenvale are harvested, but cutting off access to resource entirely is what caused this war in the first place.


Maybe if the orcs had managed their own resources better, they might have avoided a lot of problems. I do not see why the Kaldorei should share any of their land or resources with a enemy that has proven to be expansionist, violent and uses poor land management tactics.
04/19/2013 11:28 AMPosted by Cártian
The orcs should pull out of Ashenvale completely, and turn bases in Azshara into peaceful lumber camps, watched over by CC and one or two Alliance druids to make sure they're not doing any long-term damage to the forest. The druids get the ability to change how the camp operates at any time, but they are not allowed to close it or miss a weekly shipment of lumber to Orgrimmar. That way the orcs get their resources without having to conflict the night elves.

I acutally really like this idea.

It would work well too seeing as Cenarion was shown in Warcraft 3 as being capable of regrowing massive portions of the forest within a few seconds.

Chop down some trees, regrow em right after. Lumber for everyone.


I doubt the CC would want to grow forests just for the express purpose of turning it into furniture, toothpicks, buildings and charcoal and ash.
04/19/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Kynrind

I acutally really like this idea.

It would work well too seeing as Cenarion was shown in Warcraft 3 as being capable of regrowing massive portions of the forest within a few seconds.

Chop down some trees, regrow em right after. Lumber for everyone.


I doubt the CC would want to grow forests just for the express purpose of turning it into furniture, toothpicks, buildings and charcoal and ash.

I'd imagine they'd be happy to do it if it meant Ashenvale itself didnt suffer that same fate.
Maybe if the orcs had managed their own resources better, they might have avoided a lot of problems


They did manage their resources. The Night Elves had a Monsanto trademark on every tree in Kalimdor. The Horde was more than willing to trade ore and gold with the night elves but the night elves cut off trade.

The only other form of usable lumber is either across the ocean or on the other side of a continent. The night elves asking the Horde to get their lumber elsewhere is entirely unreasonable.

I do not see why the Kaldorei should share any of their land or resources with a enemy that has proven to be expansionist, violent and uses poor land management tactics.


Because if they don't it will just lead to more war. Eventually the night elves are just going to have to swallow their pride and cooperate with the orcs.
Fine! Here's the land ownership for the aftermath--Horde (minus Forsaken) gets all of Kalimdor, Alliance gets all of the Eastern Kingdoms, the Forsaken get Northrend and everybody leaves Pandaria alone! There, land's divided, no conflict, everybody should be happy and if they're not? Tough!
04/19/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Syren
the Forsaken get Northrend


If the Forsaken WANTED Northrend they could have taken it. The reason the Forsaken want northern Lordaeran is because it's as much their home as it is the Alliance's. They've lived, fought, died, and fought again for the land. You don't just pack up and leave after that kind of sacrafice.

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