Horde KoS Lists - A little insight, please?

Ravenholdt
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PvP on a PvP server.

There, I said it, got it out of the way so you don't have to. I understand what it means, I've said it a dozen times myself.

So some of my Sentinels have been informed or come upon the impression that our guild is KOS to Horde as a whole or several cliques of Horde. No problem--some of you are KOS for us too; some of you easy and fun to kill. Some of you are entertaining to fight even if we lose, some of you have the misfortune of crossing paths with us a couple times over in daily areas, some of you we catch AFK in a place you really should have known better than to try AFKing.

It's all great fun.

- What's not fun is being camped into the ground.

- What's not fun is being camped after you've made polite contact with your camper and have made an earnest attempt to flee the scene.

- What's not fun is being told the only reason you're being tracked down and camped is because of the actions of another guild and not any direct or sole act of aggression.

PvP isn't always fun or fair; we don't expect it to be. But is it too much to ask players to be civil?

I don't mind being KOS--I'm Alliance. I don't mind my guild being KOS--ICly we're pro-war. I don't mind rivalries or vengeance to a point. What I do mind is that none of these are the reason given. What I do mind is the fact that we can hop over and OOCly wave the white flag and still be ganked. What I do mind is excessive camping.

It's against our own policy to camp to an excess of 3 (now 2) consecutive kills without allowing the Horde to flee or recover. I don't expect any Horde or non-guildie to comply with that, but why hold us responsible for another Alliance guild that doesn't hold that standard?

Did one of us violate that policy? If so, who?

Does one event just stick out in your minds and piss you off?


Let us know. I don't want peace, but I do want respect.
My personal policy on camping varies a bit. If we're picking a fight, after 1 or two kills (or wipes of the other team) I tell folks** to back off and let people recoup or run. If they come at us again, clearly they're not done, and it doesn't really qualify as camping.

If it's uncamping people, my usual degree of vengeance is 1+ whatever number the other guys killed those being rescued.

If it's lowbies being ganked over and over, then it's "camp until they m-fkn log".

I also run Vanas KOS which lets me single out individuals as jerkfases, and based on the note for how they got onto My List will determine if they are regarded warily, die, or get the marshmallow treatment.

**NOTE: my telling folks and their willingness to obey are sometimes different things. But eventually I can usually browbeat people into chilling out. Especially if I stop healing them and let them die. >.>

====

I will say, V, that there is the chance that Sents are being camped in the hopes that it will draw out a large CotR response. Unless there is a reason to hold back, or there just aren't people online, I'd say call in the cavalry. Sometimes people forget why kicking a hornets' nest is a Bad Idea. ;)
I will say, V, that there is the chance that Sents are being camped in the hopes that it will draw out a large CotR response. Unless there is a reason to hold back, or there just aren't people online, I'd say call in the cavalry. Sometimes people forget why kicking a hornets' nest is a Bad Idea. ;)


Aye. We usually make it a point to bring out more people than what the assailant can possibly match. Getting mowed down sends the campers packing pretty quickly.

EDIT: By "we", I mean Indelis, but I'm fairly certain that other CoTR guilds will be happy to assist even further.
Now this is where I should of kept my big mouth shut.

There are certain individuals in the CotR that are without exemption hostile and thus I treat all of the CotR as hostile with the exception of TE(Outside of KW and IoT.) it's like people camping me because i'm assocated with drax, it's just a risk you take.
PvP on a PvP server.

- What's not fun is being told the only reason you're being tracked down and camped is because of the actions of another guild and not any direct or sole act of aggression.

But is it too much to ask players to be civil?


You only receive as much civility as you're willing to give. And if you're not civil enough to not roll with people who are really only in it to upset others and ruin their gameplay (You know EXACTLY who I'm talking about), then expect ZERO civility from the Horde. Because that's how much we've received, and it's how much we'll give.
I will say, V, that there is the chance that Sents are being camped in the hopes that it will draw out a large CotR response. Unless there is a reason to hold back, or there just aren't people online, I'd say call in the cavalry. Sometimes people forget why kicking a hornets' nest is a Bad Idea. ;)


Yeah, that's no problem, but in the situation that I mentioned they ought to have mentioned that. Or moved on to attack a town or kill quest NPCs. If we're going to be held accountable for COTR action we may as well call upon its help, but the problem is that it's not action we necessarily approve of.

Now this is where I should of kept my big mouth shut.

There are certain individuals in the CotR that are without exemption hostile and thus I treat all of the CotR as hostile with the exception of TE(Outside of KW and IoT.) it's like people camping me because i'm assocated with drax, it's just a risk you take.


This is both logical and agreeable. I'm cool with it, and I'm down with being KOS. Lets rock.

My issue is that if our ally is a camper, should we be camped in turn?

PvP on a PvP server.

- What's not fun is being told the only reason you're being tracked down and camped is because of the actions of another guild and not any direct or sole act of aggression.

But is it too much to ask players to be civil?


You only receive as much civility as you're willing to give. And if you're not civil enough to not roll with people who are really only in it to upset others and ruin their gameplay (You know EXACTLY who I'm talking about), then expect ZERO civility from the Horde. Because that's how much we've received, and it's how much we'll give.


I hear you. So if we hypothetically worked to curb or discourage their behavior, you wouldn't subject us to it? Or do wounds run too deep?
I hear you. So if we hypothetically worked to curb or discourage their behavior, you wouldn't subject us to it? Or do wounds run too deep?


You'd basically have to cut yourself off from the CotR, and i'm not sure you'd be willing to do that.
I hear you. So if we hypothetically worked to curb or discourage their behavior, you wouldn't subject us to it? Or do wounds run too deep?

If you could manage to curb CotR and TM my hat's off to you. I doubt it's going to happen, though, and I doubt you'll take a stance on not helping them in their endeavors

Edit:Re-read and realized I should've spellchecked.
Virina,

I'm sorry that it seems like the Sentinels are being targeted. It's really unfortunate when people move to the point of intentionally trying to make the game less fun for others. Yes, there is PvP on a PvP server, but I do believe there are lines.

With that said, there are some things that I would note about being on a "KoS" list of some Horde. First of all, I've found that such lists are often arbitrary and really vary from person to person. Maybe some obscure guildmate of yours once shot an arrow in the general direction of a Horde's friend's brother and now they hate you forever and they have vowed eternal and terrible vengeance against the Sentinels and everyone they talk to. While it sounds far-fetched, I assure you that some of the vendettas I've heard of sound close to this. Lack of communication between the factions only exacerbates this. In these situations, sometimes you just have to recognize that you can't make everyone happy and sometimes people are just generally silly.

Second, in also being informed about these lists, I've heard of other guilds on the these "KoS" lists of doom: <Reprisal>, <Twilight Empire>, <The Sentinels>, <The Indelibles>, <Victoria Vel Nex>, <Team Muffin>, <The Nights Veil>, and others (I'm sure I'm missing a guild or three). My response to this statement was: "Most of the Alliance guilds are on a "KoS" list. Noted." Really, there are times that it seems like if any guild shows up in a PvP situation - whether to answer a call for help or just because they enjoy PvP - they end up on a KoS list.

Are there legitimate reasons for being on a KoS list? Perhaps and I'm not going to argue against those. People will offer justifications until they're blue in the face. What I am saying is that sometimes the reason you or your guild got on a list isn't really a reason at all (or it's a silly reason). Plus, since it seems like more than half of the Alliance might be on one list or another, I would say that you're in decent company.

If this is happening to you, please let us know. As Cayreth has said, CotR is here for one another and we don't like to see anyone in the Council (or Alliance, for that matter) getting camped into the ground. We will respond - likely in large numbers because in these situations there's no such thing as a fair fight. Twilight Empire IS allowed to PvP when Allies are getting camped.

Finally, I would also recommend checking out a thread I made a while ago as an "Anti-Camping Guide." (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8569107449). There are things that you and your guild can do to minimize the inconvenience of camping and a lot involves being aware of your surroundings.

*Hugs*
(You know EXACTLY who I'm talking about)


I think I'm missing some key points here.

EDIT: Given that unsportsmanlike behavior is generally discouraged by all four guilds, it seems strange to be responding in kind as opposed to contacting the guilds about it.

It also seems strange to hold the entire alliance "accountable" for the actions of individual players / guilds, especially if you haven't tried contacting said guilds first.

I hear you. So if we hypothetically worked to curb or discourage their behavior, you wouldn't subject us to it? Or do wounds run too deep?


I think it would depend on the sincerity of the effort. The behavior Darethy and Sanyaza mentioned is not new; it's been ongoing for at least a year. There's been a new addition to this group's behavior with the introduction of CRZ and scenarios: using cross-realm groups to get out of combat or avoid dying, and queuing up for scenarios for the same purpose. The tactic itself isn't new: Knights of the Alliance and KithSa Hunter both used to queu up for dungeons during wpvp encounters, each accusing the other of doing so while denying they did. That type of poor sportsmanship faded away with those guilds, however.

The main reason I've heard for not working to curb or discourage their behavior is, "They're my friends." That they're your friends doesn't mean you shouldn't call them out when they're urinating in our collective punch bowl.

@Cayreth: Team Muffin.
@Cayreth: Team Muffin.


Team Muffin is not a part of CoTR.
04/20/2013 06:10 PMPosted by Cayreth
@Cayreth: Team Muffin.


Team Muffin is not a part of CoTR.


CotR members have run around with Team Muffin.
04/20/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Aerana
With that said, there are some things that I would note about being on a "KoS" list of some Horde. First of all, I've found that such lists are often arbitrary and really vary from person to person. Maybe some obscure guildmate of yours once shot an arrow in the general direction of a Horde's friend's brother and now they hate you forever and they have vowed eternal and terrible vengeance against the Sentinels and everyone they talk to. While it sounds far-fetched, I assure you that some of the vendettas I've heard of sound close to this. Lack of communication between the factions only exacerbates this. In these situations, sometimes you just have to recognize that you can't make everyone happy and sometimes people are just generally silly.


No, no, I mean with TM it's pretty universal. They are terrible people, should feel terrible, all that. Reprisal is almost as much, almost. I mean, if you roll with these guys you get what you get and you probably deserve it.
04/20/2013 06:10 PMPosted by Cayreth
@Cayreth: Team Muffin.


Team Muffin is not a part of CoTR.

But Team Muffin has shown up to CotR events because they've been invited by CotR members when it came down to pvp. That isn't acceptable, for obvious reasons. And you can say I'm being irrational, but you can scream irrational until you're blue in the face. Tf you arn't going to solve that issue, and the aggressions/camping of your own people, don't expect to not be camped.
04/20/2013 06:19 PMPosted by Sanyaza


Team Muffin is not a part of CoTR.

But Team Muffin has shown up to CotR events because they've been invited by CotR members when it came down to pvp.


If this is the case, I have to wonder what the inviters were thinking. They have griefed Alliance during cross-faction events. Team Muffin is not and never has been an RP guild.
So, considering the fact that this is the first time I'm hearing about this only emphasizes my point about broken communication.

First off, these are likely NOT "CoTR events", because as far as I'm concerned, if it hasn't been posted on the CoTR forums and there is no in-game calendar invite to all four guild leaders, it's not an official CoTR thing.

Second, all four leaders have a pretty good understanding on where the line between "we're holding a strategic PvP objective" and "we're purposefully ruining somebody's gameplay" lies. I don't stand for that line getting crossed in my groups and I'm sure Aerana, V and Eoh don't either.

So, again, if you're having an issue with the behavior of some CoTR members, why is this not being brought up to the leadership first? If you want to respond in kind, fine, you'll just get zerged by de-camping groups, but it seems like we can reduce the overall amount of griefing on all sides if we just talk about specific issues that people have.
PvP on a PvP server.

It's all great fun.

So, again, if you're having an issue with the behavior of some CoTR members, why is this not being brought up to the leadership first? If you want to respond in kind, fine, you'll just get zerged by de-camping groups, but it seems like we can reduce the overall amount of griefing on all sides if we just talk about specific issues that people have.


Speaking only for myself, the one time I weighed in as a person with a Horde main on a situation with a CotR person assisting a TM, I got *crickets* for a response. I suspect others may have had, or may think they'll have, similar results.

So, I'll toss out a general heads-up to all CotR leadership: having your guild group or help Team Muffin will leave a large chunk of Horde with a bad taste in their mouths about your guild. Why you're doing it doesn't matter.

I could go into details about why this attitude exists, but in doing so I'd break the forum ToS and probably get the thread deleted. I'd be more than happy to explain why elsewhere.
04/20/2013 05:44 PMPosted by Darethy
I hear you. So if we hypothetically worked to curb or discourage their behavior, you wouldn't subject us to it? Or do wounds run too deep?


You'd basically have to cut yourself off from the CotR, and i'm not sure you'd be willing to do that.


Especially since you have zero guarantee that Sents won't still be camped by Horde who just do that sort of thing (because hey guess what? They exist far and away beyond Darethy and Sany and the Sneaky Bunnies). And then you won't have access to the kind of network of support that could potentially discourage/break such incidents.

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